Renitent Rover's page

I posted this somewhat off topic in another thread. Tyring to get a discussion going apropos the right thread and not hijack someone elses.

SKR wrote a blog post in 2011 where he mentioned several rulings in an attempt to clarify CMB bonues acquired from weapons and other sources. The blog has four pages of posted messages with it that bring up several questions as well:

See this link for more information.

My main question is about when is it applicable to add the bonuses from unarmed strike (weapon focus (unarmed strike), AoMF, Brawling armor property etc) to some Combat Maneuvers (CMs)? Between the SRD on CMs, and the linked blog post above, I see a lot of wiggle room for multiple interpretations.

In the blog post like I pointed out above, the question about bonuses to grapple was asked in the posts following the Blog linked above. Some of the relevant dialogue is here:

in the spoilered quote, @jiggy's post and SKR said he would consult with JJ and get back to us. As it's been two years, I'm not holding my breath (and yes they're busy and have higher priorities, but I would love to see this readdressed...so hit FAQ! And in this case, I really think it needs it, and is NOT an overuse of the FAQ). The blog post isn't quite as good as an errata; the RAW often can't withstand a detailed parsing of their contents; and the blog didn't go through the devs review process the way an errata would, but it's what we have to work with.

I don't carry the rep on these boards that some of the common and well known posters do like @wraithstrike, @ravingdork, @cheapy or @jiggy do, but I do have a fair amount of system mastery...I just happen to be a professional lurker rather than an avid poster. So, I do want your opinions, but I think this issue has multiple references which I will try to cover here along with the link above.

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.

(emphasis mine)

This seems clear to me, in that if you use something to affect the CM, you get to add any bonuses from that attack method to the CM.

A. The blog post muddied the waters IMO for unarmed strikes with grapple. The SRD quote above was what I always used to allow unarmed strike bonuses for grapple, as your clearly using your hands. Under the grapple rules, you take a -4 penalty for not using both hands to make the grapple. Once you have the grapple condition (attacker or defender) you can only use actions that require one hand, meaning your other hand is involved. So an attack to grapple is clearly using your hands by game mechanics.

Now to SKR's blog. He says

Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.

(emphasis on normally mine).

B. SKR references unarmed strikes (US) as weapons for the three CMs. This is important if you have neither the feat IUS (FIUS) or the Monk's IUS (MIUS). The MIUS is the only one that says your hands become weapons. So SKR's comment is important in that it allows both those with just FIUS and without the feat to count their hands as weapons for Trip, Disarm and Sunder. It's being permissive for USs and natural weapons against those three CMs. It is NOT being restrictive in saying the CANNOT apply to other CMs. Further more, the IUS feat says "You are skilled at fighting while unarmed.", which could be fairly inclusive for CMs.

C. SKR says normally only those three use weapons, allowing for exceptions. He cites a couple in 1) polearm master using a polearm to bull rush, 2) weapons with trip property for drag or reposition. There are clearly other exception as with shield slam feat and supporting feats (shield focus, shield specialization, weapon focus shield).

D.

For other maneuvers, either you’re not using a weapon at all, or the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver and its bonuses shouldn’t make you better at attempting the maneuver.

This is generally true, and I hate to infer what SKR was saying, but I assess in this context he was saying 'weapon' as in a manufactured weapon. The examples he uses are a longsword and a dagger, which aren't helpful in a grapple (unless you have Hamatula Strike and a piercing weapon). As I pointed out above, hands are used in a grapple and are certainly not just "incidental" to the grapple based upon the grapple rules and the penalties required for using hands. So I assess they are an exception.

E.

Of course, the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers

From my points above, I have always ruled that bonuses to unarmed strike support the grapple CM in all circumstances, and by extension, weapon finesse would allow you to sub Dex for Str as unarmed strike is a light weapon.

Grapple to me is the most clear cut case, the other CMs are more ambiguous to me.

1. Drag - in most circumstances would include you grabbing your opponent with your hands (or a weapon) and dragging them with you. So yes to unarmed strike. Besides that, I only know of weapons with the 'trip' property being able to transfer bonuses.

2. Reposition - less clear. If you are manhandling them into the new square, then yes unarmed strike would apply, but if you do it through constantly threatening their left side so the move right, then no. Leaves some room for interpretation. Besides that, I only know of weapons with the 'trip' property being able to transfer bonuses.

3. Bull rush - maybe if you did a sumo wrestling style push you could use unarmed strike bonuses, but probably not. Shields work awfully well with the right feats (and shield focus and weapon focus (shield) would help out). Without them, this one benefits from Agile Maneuvers and not much else (if you have a high DEX build obviously).

4. Over run - I would probably allow shields to help in some circumstances, but there's no RAW to support this. Agile Manuevers still helps here without shield builds (and the shields is just my (probably generous) interpretation.)

5. Steal - definitely use hands. Rules even allow the use of a whip. However it's an odd one and not an 'attack' per se like the others, so unarmed strike probably wouldn't help. But it is an attack cause it uses CMB. Hell, I don't know on this one. Never seen it in play.

6. Feint - NOT a CM and uses a different mechanic.

Noting how a bull rush build can easily be made using shields, and drag and reposition can use weapons with the 'trip' property, grapple, overrun and steal are getting left behind on CMB bonuses as you level up.

I believe this whole issue is important for a couple of game balance issues. If you don't allow something like unarmed strike to be used with a grapple, then by mid levels when compared to trip, disarm and sunder, grapple and the other CMs start to fall behind in their CMB check by 4-5 points as the others start to pile on bonuses from weapon enhancement, weapon focus, fighter weapon training etc, and it gets worse. This clearly makes some CMs superior to others on just what you can add to CMB, which doesn't support variety of play, nor do I think is good for the game. We all know that CMD climbs into the stratosphere in the late game, so the only way to have grapple, overrun, and steal to keep up with Trip, sunder, and disarm is to have some way to help add to them.

The other game balance issue is that allowing bonuses to unarmed strike to support the CMB for grapple, you help the monk with an AoMF just a little by keeping grapple a good option for them. Everyone know's they need it.

Last point. Weapon Focus (WF) lists grapple as a possible focus. While this is currently RAW, I think it causes more problems than helping. If I can take grapple, I can take trip. If I have a WF (flail) and WF (trip), they stack, causing further inflation of the three you can clearly use with weapons.

Not to mention that if I can take WF (grapple), which fighter weapon group does it fall into? Does it come under close or natural? Is there another one for just CMs?

SKR and the other devs still should provide an answer on the use of unarmed strike bonuses with grapple CMB, but I think my points above provide solid support that they should, both mechanically from how the rules are written, as well as from a game balance perspective.