Ralphie O'Reilly's page

Ralphie O'Reilly wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Jessica Price wrote:

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Well, except that some MRA types have started using "humanist" as a way of saying "We're the ones who are REALLY in favor of equality, not those fake feminists", so I'd like to know exactly what such a statement is supposed to mean.

Yup. The whole "humanist/egalitarian" response to feminism is generally used, these days, to protect a biased status quo. Actually being a humanist or an egalitarian is a good thing, just as caring about men's rights is a good thing. Unfortunately, just as "Men's Rights Activist" has been coopted by men who see rights as a zero sum game, and therefore advocate for attempting to lessen women's rights (and legalize rape, etc.), "egalitarian/humanist" has been coopted by men who argue that women are already treated as equal to men and any efforts to improve the treatment of women are unnecessary or harmful.

Almost makes me want to start a new term (maybe something like "True Humanists" if it's not already taken) to indicate "We're into equal treatment of everybody and also recognize we're not there yet and change needs to happen to get there".

Or, really, you could just use "feminist," cuz that's what feminists want.

I would think "feminist" would be better suited as a term for folks who, despite being in favor of equality on all fronts, are focusing their own efforts specifically on the gender issue. For a person/group that tries to spread its efforts equally among multiple aspects of equality (gender, race, orientation/identity, economic status, age, etc), I would think "feminist" would be a misleading term to use. What do you think?

Ah, I apologize. Since the context was about women, that is what I assumed you meant. I think "social justice warrior" tends to encompass what you are describing.

Jessica Price wrote:

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Well, except that some MRA types have started using "humanist" as a way of saying "We're the ones who are REALLY in favor of equality, not those fake feminists", so I'd like to know exactly what such a statement is supposed to mean.

Yup. The whole "humanist/egalitarian" response to feminism is generally used, these days, to protect a biased status quo. Actually being a humanist or an egalitarian is a good thing, just as caring about men's rights is a good thing. Unfortunately, just as "Men's Rights Activist" has been coopted by men who see rights as a zero sum game, and therefore advocate for attempting to lessen women's rights (and legalize rape, etc.), "egalitarian/humanist" has been coopted by men who argue that women are already treated as equal to men and any efforts to improve the treatment of women are unnecessary or harmful.

Almost makes me want to start a new term (maybe something like "True Humanists" if it's not already taken) to indicate "We're into equal treatment of everybody and also recognize we're not there yet and change needs to happen to get there".

Or, really, you could just use "feminist," cuz that's what feminists want.

It also avoids making the woman/women in the group into the Bad Guy--too often the people who are already under stress/pressure because they're the target of harassing behavior are put on the spot to also be the ones to call a halt to it and be the primary person to deal with any fallout from it. And there's no reason that that has to be the case--people who are in a less vulnerable position can take on/distribute some of that work.

Thank you for saying this, Jessica. I feel like I need some support from men to combat sexism, but I worry that saying so will make other people think I'm not being strong or tough enough. Knowing that other women don't feel like they have to face everything on their own makes me feel better.

Thank you also for suggesting that more women weigh in on this issue. I've loved seeing other women's experiences here.

Woman speaking up on the issue! But definitely not speaking for all women.

I think the question of "Should women be treated differently?" is a complicated one. Some of the advice is spot on---don't hit on women at the gaming table. But I think there are a couple of ways that women maybe should be treated differently.

From what I've seen, women approach the game differently than men. Men often jump right in with confidence that they can learn all the rules, while women have more trepidation and/or want to dip their toes into PF, rather than learning all the pages and pages of rules. Sometimes the GM's instinct---and I have been guilty of this---is to chastise a player for not speaking up. "You didn't talk, so you can't make the diplomacy check." In general a better solution would be to figure out a way to include the player and have her be more involved. Though, really, this advice could apply to any player less apt to speak at the table.

The other way that women may need to be treated differently is conflict resolution, specifically related to sexist behavior. If a woman says that a guy is giving her a hard time, the first thing other gamers need to do is believe her. The second thing is to realize that she probably can't handle it on her own. When I had an issue with a guy being sexist to me, most guys didn't notice things that happened right in front of them. And even when they did, they didn't think it was worth doing anything about. Guys who said, "Wow, his sexist behavior is a problem" still went to play at his house every week and wouldn't say anything to him about it. And sometimes all it takes is one problem person before a woman doesn't feel welcome in the community.

I prefer not to see men playing as female characters because I have seen it done disrespectfully too many times. I was once at a table with Candy the exotic dancer and Barbie the barbarian, and one of the guys called the two men out on it. Candy's player protested that it wasn't a problem because he had female characters who were respectful. Ever since then, I'm uncomfortable with it.

I also once was at a table where a male friend of mine was playing a female character, and one of the other men decided it was funny for his character to keep grabbing her ass. He wouldn't listen to the rest of us that this was not okay until the woman who was new to PFS spoke up to say that it was a problem.

Ralphie O'Reilly wrote:

Assorted complaints

Sounds like some crappy situations. Was this when you all were really young or something? It just seems like such idiotic behavior.

This was all within the last 2 years. It is... what it is.

I'm a woman who has been playing Pathfinder weekly for over 2 years now (and monthly for a few years before that) and GMing as often for nearly that long. When I first started playing Pathfinder, I thought like the OP did---isn't it great that all that sexism is an exaggeration. It was when I started to GM and take a bigger leadership role in the community that I realized that the sexism was still there, just a lot subtler than I thought it was.

I always had the occasional case of things not being okay. The time the guy suggested that my paladin was a woman and should thus distract the guards with her feminine wiles, and when I said "No," the table pressured me to "take one for the team." The guy who always played ditzy girl characters because "that's what women are like." The new player who said that the Adowyn pregen he was playing couldn't lift stuff because she was a girl.

When I started GMing was when things got worse, though. Every GM has to deal with argumentative players and players talking over them, but I had to deal with it all the time, more than the men whose tables I played at. Sometimes when I would try to enforce rules, I would be met with outright hostility. The men around me either didn't notice or didn't think there was anything to be done about it.

Eventually I stopped running for people I didn't know. I just didn't feel comfortable with it anymore. If a player gave me a hard time, I didn't know if they were just a difficult player or if they were giving me a hard time because I was a woman. I hated feeling that way.

So now I still play Pathfinder. I love Pathfinder. But I only invite people I feel comfortable playing with.