PumpkinCake's page

Oh, right. I even quoted the 5' step thing in my original post and forgot about it.

You are playing with the limit of language when it is clear how it is meant to work.

Yeah, I was doing that on purpose to make a point. Anyway, the readied action example I gave was more relevant anyway.

As others have said, this wouldn't count as ending your turn twice.

However, in this particular case it's easy to apply common sense. Why is the save required? Because the squares adjacent to the pit are sloped and tricky footing. If the fighter made the save on his turn and did not move with his readied action he doesn't need to make another save. If his readied action involves moving and he ends in a square next to the pit, he should make a save.

I agree! Even though RAW I think he technically wouldn't have to, Rules as Intended, he should.

The spirit of the various Pit spells are "After the initial effect, the spellcaster creates a large hazard in a fixed location. Unless they're forced into or around the pit, each character chooses on their turn whether they brave the dangerous terrain or avoid it." Usually, this happens when they move up to the pit on their turn, or they start their turn next to the pit and decide to not move.

That isn't what happened with my group's Fighter, though. He didn't make the decision to stay next to the pit because it appeared after his initiative passed. Normally, he'd get the decision to move away or hang and bang on his next turn, but it happened early for him because of the GM's call on his readied action to attack.

However, it looks like readied actions, attacks of opportunity, and immediate actions are all in the same umbrella of "actions you take not on your turn" in terms of Rules As Written, so none of them should cause any effects that trigger when your turn ends.
Readying an action to run to the pit is perhaps a loophole abuse, which Rules As Intended says should provoke a save.

Actually, I found the perfect counterpoint. Path of Glory.

Allies that end their turns on a glowing square (including one who falls unconscious in the square) are healed of 1 point of damage.

Fighter: I delay my action and heal 1 point. I'll take my turn right now. I delay my action and heal 1 point. I'll take my turn right now...

or

Fighter: I ready an action to draw my weapon if I see a goblin. My turn ends, so I heal 1 point of damage. My readied action just went off, so I draw my weapon. My turn ended again, so I heal 1 point of damage.

Obviously, this would not fly. Good effects that trigger at the end of your turn don't trigger twice, so why would bad ones?

Only in a situation where a creature had to make two saves (or had to make none) for the same thing with no reasonable change in situation would you need to worry about.

I was actually thinking of posing the exact situation you used as an argument against the spell triggering twice. Spells and effects like this usually trigger once per round, and the text of the spell tells you when that trigger happens. For continual damage, that happens on the turn of whoever caused it. For gazes and bleed, that happens at the beginning of the affected creature's turn and doesn't happen twice per round just for delaying and readying (minus exceptions like yours).

i would say it does so just before his next turn. otherwise one could potentially keep reading action next to the pit and never need to roll.

This isn't actually true. If Fighter's readied action never triggered, then initiative would eventually come back to him as normal. If he didn't move and Readied again as a standard action, then his turn would end, and he'd have to make the Reflex save.

Goblin 1 ends his turn 10 feet away from Fighter.
Fighter stands still and readies an action to attack any goblin that enters melee range.
Wizard casts Create Pit in a 10x10 square in front of Fighter. Goblin 1 fails his Reflex save and falls in.

You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extra-dimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). ... Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space. In addition, the edges of the pit are sloped, and any creature ending its turn on a square adjacent to the pit must make a Reflex saving throw with a +2 bonus to avoid falling into it.

.

GM rules: Fighter ended his turn adjacent to a Create Pit pit and must make a Reflex save.

Fighter succeeds and doesn't fall in. Goblin finishes his interrupted turn, attacks Fighter, and also succeeds his Reflex save. Combat continues normally.

Ready

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (thought the action that you ready might do so).

Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

Initiative Consequences of Readying
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

Fighter accepted the ruling in the moment and rolled the save to move the action along, but this is a situation that will likely come up again with this group.

Sorry if this was asked before. There's a lot of search results for readied actions and I couldn't find anything about this specific part.

Does completing a readied action count as ending your turn?

I was starting to think that we had the same thought and you beat me by seconds. Thanks for clearing that up haha

Thank you! I appreciate the page and section citation, too. That's good enough for me.

A stalker gains an ability called hidden strike, which allows him to deal an extra 1d8 points of precision damage on melee attacks (or ranged attacks from within 30 feet) against foes who are unaware of his presence, who consider him an ally, or who are made flat-footed by startling appearance. This extra damage increases by 1d8 at 3rd level and every 2 vigilante levels thereafter. A stalker vigilante can also deal hidden strike damage to a target that he is flanking or that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, but in these cases, the damage dice are reduced to d4s. A stalker can deal hidden strike damage against targets with concealment (but not total concealment).

Once this choice is made, it can’t be changed. While many vigilante talents are usable by both specializations, some are unique to each specialization. A stalker vigilante can apply only one talent marked with an asterisk (*) to a given hidden strike, and only when that hidden strike is dealt against a foe that is unaware of the stalker vigilante’s presence (or who considers him an ally), unless otherwise noted.

Up Close and Personal (Ex): When the vigilante attempts an Acrobatics check to move through an opponent’s space during a move action, he can attempt a single melee attack against that opponent as a swift action. If the Acrobatics check succeeds, this attack applies the vigilante’s hidden strike damage as if the foe were unaware of the vigilante. Otherwise, the vigilante applies the hidden strike damage he would deal if the target were denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. Only a stalker vigilante of at least 4th level can select this talent.

Leave an Opening* (Ex): The vigilante’s hidden strike leaves an unbalancing opening in a foe’s defenses, setting up the foe to be attacked again. At the beginning of the foe’s next turn, if the vigilante threatens the foe, the foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the vigilante. Multiple attacks against the same foe don’t create multiple attacks of opportunity in the same round (but attacks against several foes can cause each to provoke one attack of opportunity). Only a stalker vigilante can select this talent.

My group's stalker vigilante has Leave an Opening. Somehow, we haven't gotten the drop on anything since she got that talent, but we surprised some magical beasts (Can't remember their name. It's not important.), and we all won initiative on top of that.

Surprise Round
Vigilante: Move action, makes an Acrobatics check to move through Beast 1's space. She succeeds.
Swift action, per Up Close and Personal, she hits with her dagger and applies hidden strike damage. She opts to use the Leave an Opening talent on her hidden strike.
Wizard, Cleric, Fighter: Take actions; they're not important.
Beasts: They don't act; they're surprised.

Round 1
Vigilante: Same thing. Standard action, single attack. Move action, makes an Acrobatics check, succeeds. Swift action, she hits with her dagger and applies hidden strike damage. She opts to use the Leave an Opening talent on her hidden strike.
Wizard, Cleric, Fighter: Take actions. Beasts 2, 3, and 4 die.
Beast 1: At the beginning of its turn, per Leave an Opening, it provokes an attack of opportunity from the Vigilante. She hits and kills it.

End of Combat.

My question concerns the italicized portion above. None of us were sure if Beast 1 provoked an AOO on its "turn" in the surprise round. We didn't find an answer immediately, so the Vigilante decided to forgo the attack to keep the game moving.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round.

It's not explicit whether in a surprise round, they get a turn in which they are unable to act or if they don't properly have a place in the turn order. I've read some other rules questions posted here about things that proc on turn during the surprise round, and there doesn't seem to be a consensus, but the common knowledge seems to be that they do indeed trigger. (e.g. A monster gets surprise and wins initiative, on its surprise attack it deals bleed damage on Barbarian. On Barbarian's "turn" in the surprise round, he takes bleed damage, then takes it again on his turn on Round 1.) Vigilantes play atypically, though.

TL;DR Do things that trigger on a creature's turn (at the start of, during, or after) trigger on that creature's "turn" in a surprise round? Does Leave an Opening, specifically?

EDIT: I oversimplified Vigilante's Round 1 action for the sake of the question, but I reread and realized that my simplifications made the turn incorrect. Fixed.

Thanks for all the input! I'm glad I'm fixing my understanding of the rules. I think I might have learned some of them the wrong way from a podcast, perhaps?

No, because the ranged attack is only done after the spell has finished casting, per he rules on Casting Time: "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect." CRB pg. 213 You can't make an attack without a target, and you only chose a target after the casting time is over.

This bit especially is something I'll take back to my group. Thanks for the page citation too.

Touch spells don't require concentration checks to hold them.

I feel like I'm going crazy. I could have sworn they did. Thanks for the correction. That precedent is almost enough to make me completely abandon my original question.

That's pretty much what my GM thought. As a counterpoint, if you cast a touch spell and hold it on Round 1 and deliver it Round 2, any damage you take in the interim will prompt a concentration spell to not lose the charge. The spell is at risk until it's discharged.

But I don't mean to argue the point. I can see how it can be one way or the other. I'm more hoping for some concrete rules about if the ranged attack part is indeed separate and chronologically after the verbal/somatic part.
Edited to add: And also if incoming damage from a ranged attack hits before you discharge your spell or after.

Fighter threatens Efreeti with a melee weapon. Efreeti has the Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat for its spell-like ability scorching ray.

Using a quickened spell-like ability is a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Efreeti casts a quickened scorching ray at Cleric. Casting the spell-like ability does not provoke, but making a ranged attack does. Fighter makes an attack of opportunity, hits, and does damage.

1) Is it correct that a quickened spell-like ability with a ranged attack provokes once, from the ranged attack?
2) Does damage taken during the ranged attack part of a spell require the caster to make a concentration check or lose the spell?
3) Does the answer change if during a standard action, standard scorching ray the caster succeeds on casting defensively to not provoke off the casting but still provokes from the ranged attack and takes damage?

I was under the impression that casting the spell and making the ranged attack were part of the same action, so any damage taken from the ranged attack would prompt a concentration check vs loss of the spell.
I let it slide in the moment and looked it up later, but I can't find any explicit rulings either for or against the GM's decision. I'd appreciate anything concrete in the rules I could take back to my group for next time.

Those look helpful to me too. Thanks for the links!

I was thinking of a support/skills Bard too, but you beat me to it. Looks like that’s the last of the 4 categories filled. My first thought was Rogue, but everyone says Chained Rogue is the worst class.

You said new to PBP is welcome. Is new to Pathfinder welcome as well? I have a cumulative 2 years of D&D 3.5e, but I haven't been able to find anyone willing to take on a technically new player.

I have 2 years of experience playing tabletop D&D 3.5e, and I want to get into Pathfinder 1e. Ideally, I'd like to try out some low- or mid-level one-shots or modules to get a hold of the rules. I wouldn't say no to an AP or campaign, but jumping to high-level play in the middle of a narrative is probably a bad idea right now. Eventually, I want to try my hand at GMing myself.

I'm available M-F after ~5 PM CT (GMT-6), and I'm free all day on Saturday and Sunday.

I typically play a Lawful and/or Good character, and I’m interested in playing a Cleric or Fighter, but I could make another core class for the sake of party balance.