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Ajaxius wrote:

Honestly, I'm of the opposite opinion. I want to see fewer niche ancestral languages. The proliferation that language is tied to race (rather than culture) is a bit of an outdated idea. It also creates this kind of weird idea that dwarves, regardless of where you find them, will speak one common language in Dwarvish. Really, there should be multiple dialects of Dwarvish, and off-shoot languages, and and and... I'm getting ahead of myself.

All that being said, I do agree on Kobolds. However, rather than just saying, "They speak Kobold unilaterally across the world," I'd like to see a small section of various Kobold languages, possibly based on the source of their obsession or locales. Again, dialects would be great, here.

The idea of there being different dialects for ancestral languages is a neat one.

I do not know how well that would work in application, though.
If there were, let's say two Dwarf languages called Swedish and Mongolian, I do not know if players at the table would distinguish between them, or if they'd just call both of them Dwarven, since that is what they're used to calling the language Dwarves speak.

I have to say though, Kobolds adopting language of what their benefactor is tied to?
That's a golden ticket idea to BigBrainsville!
That sells the fantasy and culture of Kobolds way more than slapping Sakvroth onto the ancestry could ever do!
Brilliant take!


Squiggit wrote:
Language is an important part of culture, but there are dozens of societies both in game and in real life that share languages in common while still having deep and rich cultural uniqueness. I really dislike and vehemently disagree with the suggestion that not having a unique language makes some group culturally stunted or lesser.

I was not implying that cultures which share languages are in any way inferior.

If that is what you took away from my post, I apologise.

My knowledge on countries which share languages isn't broad, but I will try to elucidate what I had meant to get across, which is how culture forms language.
I am comfortable bringing up is Iberian Spanish and Mexican Spanish, as well as British English and Australian English, given that I have interacted with people speaking each language.
If you inspect both of the pairs of languages closely, in spite of how they're largely the same, they are all distinct.
Because the languages all come from different countries, and spoken by people with different culture, they have changed over time.
They possess different vocabulary and even pronounce the same words differently.
Which is to say, even in real life, countries which on the surface speak the same language, aren't speaking the exact same language. So much so, trying to use one in place of the other is an easy way to commit a social faux pas.
As life goes on, language, much like the people who speak it, changes.
It always does.
Which is why I am surprised Kobolds haven't made their own.


Tridus wrote:

I think the problem is that in actual play this hardly matters. The common trade languages (Common/Taldane, Tien, Mwangi, and Sakravoth) are there so that the game can function smoothly. They're what is getting used most of the time, because a group of PCs who can't speak Goblin encountering a Goblin who only speaks Goblin is a fun encounter once, and after that gets annoying real fast. People tend to go find spells to solve that problem because players want to participate and shutting them out via language barriers doesn't facilitate participation.

Adding another language to the already huge language list would hardly matter, both because the list is already bloated, but also because that language would hardly ever get used in actual play. Just like "it's actually important that the PCs speak Gnomish" is almost never true.

I believe that, to your detriment, you're coming at this issue from a purely utilitarian approach. That being, that at the game table, having less languages is good as it allows for seamless interactions.

It is absolutely true that putting 30 different languages in one's game is a sure-fire way for 23 of them to be ignored.
What I had proposed instead, is something that, I think, would add depth to the world and sell the players on the fantasy of Pathfinder.
It doesn't escape me that Kobold as a language would not be commonly picked, but the possibility of not picking it, I believe leaves everyone worse off.

As for language barriers, this is why spells like Translate and items like Books of Translation or Choker of Elocution and skill feats like Multilingual exists. A situation where players encounter a character who barely speaks common or doesn't speak it at all, is also a fun challenge for a party. It allows non-pure combat characters to shine!

I would like to add, players being unable to communicate with Kobolds, I believe, isn't an issue that exists. All bestiary entries I could find list common as one of their languages, which is to say, Kobolds speak common as often as they speak Sakvroth. Unless an AP or a GM actively chooses to strip them of that, of course.


The Raven Black wrote:
Maybe it is the other way around. Sakvroth is the name of the Kobolds' language and they have been so successful in spreading and adapting everywhere that it became the common tongue of the upper level of the Darklands.

I have to say, your idea is quite rad too! Though I would need to do more research, since Kobolds aren't the only ones who speak Sakvroth. I do not know yet if the idea would hold up under scrutiny.

To my knowledge, Sakvroth does not possess any lore tied to it.
After the remaster it's just common but for people living below the surface.
If we take the old pre-remaster lore, then it actually originated from the Drow.


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Good day to you! I'm a fan of the little lizard peoples, as you will soon be able to tell from this post. I had noticed what I think is a shortcoming of PF2e in regards to them, which I believe has an easy solution as well.

Kobolds, a widespread ancestry with a large population, in my opinion, cannot have their culture represented as much as I think could be possible.
For those not in the know, unlike most ancestries, Kobolds do not possess a unique language, instead speaking Sakvroth (previously named Undercommon).

This is a major mistake in my opinion, as language is a cornerstone of culture.
Language in all cases carries generations of history, stories, and life experiences of the people who speak it.
Even the most secluded, localised, and smallest-in-population ancestries possess their own language in Pathfinder.
Samsaran speak Samsaran, Vanara speak Vanara, Wayang speak Wayang, Tanuki speak Tanuki, it goes on.
In my view, the biggest strength of Pathfinder as both a setting and a system, is how it can portray as well as represent so many different cultures, both those inspired by real-life ones or those purely fantastical.
This is to say, it bums me out Kobolds seemingly got the short end of the stick.
It is almost as if they possess no agency of their own, which is not true! We all know, and some of us love, how driven these little buggers are!

Allow me to also step back and consider this issue from the perspective of lore. Kobolds being fluent in Sakvroth makes more than perfect sense. Usually living underground, Kobolds are a communal sort, which heavily depend on cooperation between each other and other beings which dwell beneath the ground.
If anything, it would arguably make less sense were they not able to speak it.
That being said, again, it is questionable that Sakvroth serves the role as their "main" language.
It almost suggest Kobolds never progressed as a culture and a people from merely adopting a language commonly spoken underground.

I would like to bring up Gnomes as an example here, as I think they show what how this issue could be resolved perfectly.
Gnomes, a numerous and storied peoples, possess their own language--Gnomish. But it is hardly the only one they speak! Gnomes originating from the first world, they also speak Fey!
I think Sakvroth could fit wonderfully in the same role for Kobolds.

As a final paragraph, I would like to also approximate the number of other ancestries which share the issue of not having their own language.
Using AoN as a source, which lists 49 ancestries, out of all of them there are only 16 ancestries which do not possess their own language, that being:

Awakened Animal, Fleshwarp, Ghoran, Kobold, Poppet, Sarangay, Skeleton, Sprite, Yaoguai, Athamaru, Centaur, Fetchling, Kitsune, Merfolk, Minotaurs, and Leshys

Out of these 16, some however aren't distinct cultures, but are rather either:
A: A transformed member of a different ancestry (ex. Fleshwarps and Skeletons) or
B: Beings created spontaneously, and often as a singular individual, having no time or populous to create their own culture (ex. Leshy, Poppets)
Striking those off the list, we're now left with:

Ghoran, Kobold, Sarangay, Sprite, Athamaru, Centaur, Kitsune, Merfolk, Minotaur
They are quite unfortunate, this group of 9, I mean.

But hey, all of this to say
Come on Paizo!
Goblins speak Goblin.
Let Kobolds speak Kobold too!