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Nitrousoxide wrote:

Philippe Lam wrote:

Pathfinder is an exclusive system rather than an inclusive one. For that to work the way the OP wants, it should have clearly been explicited. If the line is missing, it doesn't work bar an afterthought designer's oversight.

Now a player can absolutely force the issue in PFS sessions. Just that it won't be well-received at all, and word spreads fast. On the contrary, home games would allow for some gentleman's agreement to come into place.

Okay, fair enough on the stacking, though you wouldn't stack your monk levels if you were monk 1, brawler 4, you would have basically 4 different sets of levels for purposes of items and feats.

1: 1 level in monk, from your actual level in monk
2: 4 levels in fighter, from your 4 levels in brawler
3: 4 levels in monk, from your 4 levels in brawler
4: 4 levels in brawler, from your 4 levels in brawler.

The monk's robe would either give you 1+5 levels in unarmed damage and AC progression and
AND
The monk's robe would apply 4+5 levels in unarmed damage and AC progression

since you don't apply multiple sources of AC or the like at the same time, the greater of the two would apply. Meaning you have 9 effective monk levels for your unarmed damage progression and AC.

You do, based on your brawler unarmed damage and AC. Since the archetype has removed said progression then you get a null result. This means that the greater of the two is the 1+5 from your actual monk level.

It doesn't matter whether you have the class feature of Unarmed Strike from the brawler or the monk. All that matters is that you have the class feature and then it looks to see the highest level in monk that you have.

Especially since the Monk's robe specifically references the monk's table, not the brawler's unarmed attack table. I don't know why you keep rolling on back to the brawler's progression table when nothing about the item references it.

Pathfinder is an exclusive system rather than an inclusive one. For that to work the way the OP wants, it should have clearly been explicited. If the line is missing, it doesn't work bar an afterthought designer's oversight.

Now a player can absolutely force the issue in PFS sessions. Just that it won't be well-received at all, and word spreads fast. On the contrary, home games would allow for some gentleman's agreement to come into place.

Okay, fair enough on the stacking, though you wouldn't stack your monk levels if you were monk 1, brawler 4, you would have basically 4 different sets of levels for purposes of items and feats.

1: 1 level in monk, from your actual level in monk
2: 4 levels in fighter, from your 4 levels in brawler
3: 4 levels in monk, from your 4 levels in brawler
4: 4 levels in brawler, from your 4 levels in brawler.

The monk's robe would either give you 1+5 levels in unarmed damage and AC progression and
AND
The monk's robe would apply 4+5 levels in unarmed damage and AC progression

since you don't apply multiple sources of AC or the like at the same time, the greater of the two would apply. Meaning you have 9 effective monk levels for your unarmed damage progression and AC. The monk level itself does nothing to contribute to the boost in this, and the only thing it does is serve to provide you with the class features you're missing out on thanks to taking exemplar.

What?

The brawler levels should count as monk levels for purposes of qualifying for feats and effects of magical items.

You get to add the levels for qualifying for the effect of the magical item. I qualify for the effect of the monk's robe as if I were a level 5 monk.

The monk's robe specifically points to the monk class's AC and unarmed chart to determine your damage, not to any other class's.

And most importantly, the brawler class ability SPECIFICALLY calls out the monk robe as an item that your brawler class level counts for. That item was SPECIFICALLY envisioned to fully apply to a brawler by the creators.

The main contention, and one I can agree, is that the archtype of Exemplar interacts really weirdly with a monk's robe in a way in a way that probably was not intended due to its removal of the class features that give you unarmed damage progression, but if you can get that class feature back through some other way (such as taking a level in monk) I'd argue that all is made right in the world and you get to treat the brawler's levels as fully applying as monk levels for the purposes of the item.

Huh? How do you read this then?

Martial Training (Ex)

At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk’s robe).

The brawler levels should count as monk levels for purposes of qualifying for feats and effects of magical items. So a level 5 character, with 1 level in monk and 4 in brawler should count as a level 5 monk for purposes of magical items.

When combined with:

If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher.

You get an effective monk level of 10 for both AC and unarmed damage for purposes of those progression charts.

By taking one level in monk you get around the issue of lacking the unarmed combat part of the class that you loose by taking the exemplar archtype

If one were to sneak in one level in monk though, everyone would agree that that you regain the unarmed combat features and full progression, and Monk's Robe would treat your effective monk level for purposes of it all as your monk level plus your brawler level +5?

I think Fuzzy-Wuzzy is probably right and that RAI it would not work that way I described in the OP, and most GM's wouldn't allow it, though it would have to be allowed in a RAW only game like PFS.

One could argue, however, that since the Robe does give brawlers the Monk's AC progression +5, something they normally wouldn't have regardless of their archtype, as the Brawler's AC ability is similar, but very distinct from the Monk's one. You should get get the unarmed damage progression described in the robe (but not feats associated with) you otherwise lack since you have effective monk levels.

Even on this most aggressive reading though, You would NOT get magical fists, or any other abilities that normally come with a brawler or a monk, and your unarmed would only do non-lethal unless you take the improved unarmed damage feat (though realistically that's not a huge downside since you can generally just finish people off after knocking them all out at the end of combat)

A follow up question would be whether Close Weapon Mastery is affected by the Monk's Robe.

I would say probably not, at at least RAW, but it's possible it was supposed to RAI. Close Weapon Mastery has its damage boost specifically tied to the Brawler's damage unarmed damage progression, and the Monk's Robe only modifies to unarmed attacks, but otherwise doesn't affect the progression.

As for Dave's comment, I'm not really sure what you're getting at there. The Brawler's Martial Training specifically says you have monk levels for purposes of magical items. It even calls out the Monk's Robe specifically saying that you qualify for it by virtue of your brawler levels counting as monk levels.

So Exemplar Brawler normally gives up the unarmed damage progression of the Brawler class as part of their archtype.

The Exemplar also gives up the AC bonus as well:

"At 4th level, when a brawler wears light or no armor, she gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC and CMD. This bonus increases by 1 at 9th, 13th, and 18th levels.

These bonuses to AC apply against touch attacks. She loses these bonuses while immobilized or helpless, wearing medium or heavy armor, or carrying a medium or heavy load."

However brawler itself says that:

"At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk’s robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally granted to fighters and monks based on class level, namely Stunning Fist."

This is not modified at all by the Exemplar archtype.

Monk's Robe says:
"When worn, this simple brown robe confers great ability in unarmed combat. If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the robe lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-Level monk (although she does not add her Wisdom bonus to her AC). This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus."

Which I would take to mean that as a brawler, I would get to count my brawler levels as monk levels for the purpose of this item, and get the monk's unarmed damage progression for my current level exemplar brawler level +5 and also get to the monk's AC for my current level +5, despite both of these abilities being otherwise lost by my archtype?

I obviously wouldn't get any other abilities that might normally come along with them, such as the free Improved Unarmed Strike feat, so those would have to be obtained elsewhere.

Does this track or am I messing up my reasoning somewhere?