NecisVenator's page

I was super excited to start up a second adventure path, with Abomination Vaults being packed with information making it super easy to run.

But wow, there is so little information in the adventure path and players guide about the City of Alkenstar. I tracked down a copy of Wardens of the Reborn Forge, and also found some stuff on the pathfinder wiki page, but it's all so inconsistent.

The district of Steamhaven up and moved to another part of town between publications, a second bridge was built right next to the old one. Tinwound Hydroplant moved from where the river entered the city to the top of the Alken falls, which would probably be a better spot if there was a landmass to support it.

Hellside in the previous publication was built on the smokeside cliff adjacent to the alken falls so they could take advantage hawking their wares to the ships using the screw, now its just on the Northern Cliffs.

According to the wiki the town of Martel should be directly below the Norther cliffs as it says it actually connects to the city above through two immensely tall towers (kinda cool) but seems to have disappeared now.

I'm sure there is more stuff, but for an adventure that spends a lot of time in the City there sure are a lot of unanswered questions.

I wasn't really in the Pathfinder 1st ed scene.
Is Pathfinder 2 just a complete reset of the earlier material?
Wondering what other people did for their Alkenstar setting.

I really hope this AP has or gets an Errata or reprint that corrects these Map issues & Alkenstar lore inconsistencies... I was really tempted to pick it up as I adapt from 1st Ed & might get a chance to run PF again, but in a low magic/clockwork setting. I love that it is 3 parts as well. Keeping my eye on Outlaws of Alkenstar, hoping it gets the fixes it needs to be run better.

Thread that Wouldn't Die!

I sorta get why.

but i do wish that there were Psychic and Divine versions of it too. Or at least psychic. I sorta see why on divine side, they have better BAB and such.
A psychic strike would be pretty great for a lot of builds haha.
And that they'd work as pre reqs for most of the choices available now

Or if that sneak way was still valid, the SLA or once per day casting tricks.

Divine doesn't need it from all the self-buff and generally better bab/weapon proficiency, but damage as an arcane caster in melee is key.

I'm building different combat capable Bards (masked performer) and this seems like an essential feat for at least one of them. (one game allows bonus bonus feat + damage from dex for weapon finesse...). Arcane Strike definitely popped out at me.

So, weapon finesse lets me do that better to hit with dex, whether rapier, whip or light weapons...but this lets me add a weapon damage bonus that floats. Without any str I'm at a disadvantage hitting things and hurting them. Bad enough I lack bab, but the dex will help and so will self-buffs. Later I'll add in more combat feats to option with Stage Combat. Luckily I keep Inspire Courage!

I have an older concept cleric/rogue/bard basically just a bard now who wears a mask as a performer ("The Magnificent Masked Minstrel" and as an inherited role from his uncle/also the uncle). The best trick I was able to pull with this idea in game was escaping an angry mob/upset citizenry by removing the mask he always wore and then just blending into the crowd.

Masked Performer works somewhat similarly.

I'm not playing a vigilante where no one knows who I am, just people who know me though would be able to associate my on stage masked persona with my social character. I am thinking of fun prestidigitation uses (particularly in making masks), and lots of disguise, bluff and perform act focuses.

So I am building a 2nd level half-elf (mischevious understudy and aspiring folk hero) and a 1st level human (secret revolutionary uncle and cayden cailen barfly) bard for different games.

The traits I want to pick are mostly in place (secret revolutionary for the uncle, bonus trait from the campaign guide and maybe world traveler or something bard centered).
The feats are less certain (and a bonus from the campaign will help), but mostly I want to get feedback and help since the Masked Performer Archetype and the Ultimate Intrigue book is pretty new still.

Bard is high, but not maxed, cha. Decent Dex. no major dumps, but low Str and Wis and Con.

pointed questions:

A. Does any other Bard Archetype stack? Not assuming any leeway there, but curious if anyone has done the math yet.

B. Has anyone else looked down the awesome rabbit hole that is "Stage Combat?" While combat is not the focus of these bard concepts, being a swashbuckling scoundrel. I am strongly considering Weapon Finesse. I figure also that if I chain my feats properly (weapon focus rapier, perhaps whip) that could definitely be fun, particularly down the line with Fencing Grace (if I remember it right) as that adds dex to damage.

Permission for AA scorpion whip not withstanding, it seems unlikely I will be able to switch between rapier and whip well enough to justify, but I would still like to be competent in both. The human bard might actually be feat rich enough to pull it off since in that game he gets a bonus feat just for being a core race, so double bonus starting feats will likely go into setting up for later levels of melee focus or bard badassery. the Human Masked Performer Bard is in a Council of Thieves 15 pt buy and the Half-elf Masked Performer Bard is in a Lastwall starting off point for an inevitable GM joy ride.

C. that said, what should I spend my extra bonus feat on? basically i get 3, so any recommendations there would be wonderful. Obviously the human masked performer will be dealing with Diabolists and a very urban setting whereas the not-feat rich half-elf won't have the guarantee of social environs and urban challenges as much as in Council of Thieves.

I don't anticipate not using spells to escape trouble, but this is also a skillpoint starved build.

I have an older concept cleric/rogue/bard basically just a bard now who wears a mask as a performer ("The Magnificent Masked Minstrel" and as an inherited role from his uncle/also the uncle).

So I am building a 2nd level half-elf (mischevious understudy and aspiring folk hero) and a first level human (secret revolutionary uncle and cayden cailen barfly) bard for different games.

The traits I want to pick are mostly in place (secret revolutionary for the uncle, bonus trait from the campaign from the dmand maybe world traveller or something bard centered).
The feats are less certain (and a bonus from the campaign will help), but mostly I want to get feedback and help since the Masked Performer Archetype and the Ultimate Intrigue book is pretty new still.

Bard is high, but not maxed, cha. Decent Dex. no major dumps, but low Str and Wis and Con.

pointed questions:

A. Does any other Bard Archetype stack? Not assuming any leeway there, but curious if anyone has done the math yet.

B. Has anyone else looked down the awesome rabbit hole that is "Stage Combat?" While combat is not the focus of these bard concepts, being a swashbuckling scoundrel. I am strongly considering Weapon Finesse. I figure also that if I chain my feats properly (weapon focus rapier, perhaps whip) that could definitely be fun, particularly down the line with Fencing Grace (if I remember it right) as that adds dex to damage.

Permission for AA scorpion whip not withstanding, it seems unlikely I will be able to switch between rapier and whip well enough to justify, but I would still like to be competent in both. The human bard might actually be feat rich enough to pull it off since in that game he gets a bonus feat just for being a core race, so double bonus starting feats will likely go into setting up for later levels of melee focus or bard badassery. the Human Masked Performer Bard is in a Council of Thieves 15 pt buy and the Half-elf Masked Performer Bard is in a Lastwall starting off point for an inevitable GM joy ride.

C. that said, what should I spend my extra bonus feat on? basically i get 3, so any recommendations there would be wonderful. Obviously the human masked performer will be dealing with Diabolists and a very urban setting whereas the not-feat rich half-elf won't have the guarantee of social environs and urban challenges as much as in Council of Thieves.

I don't anticipate not using spells to escape trouble, but this is also a skill starved build.

Curious if you've looked at Bramble Brewer combos yet 0gre. I am helping one of my players assemble a Bramble Brewer/Chirurgeon/Internal Alchemist (a combo of his concepts and my suggestion of Chirurgeon).

Since the party has no primary healer, Chirurgeon was highly supported by me. From what I can tell it is a valid combo.

And poison resistance +6 is unaffected by the prior swap for the skill bonus heal?

Oooh, dabbling in (thread-) necromancy! The frisson of the forbidden!

Anyway, as to the original question, I would agree that this is more to do with setting than rules as such. As Zhayne said, unless the two proposed patrons have incompatible ideals, I wouldn't have a problem with it; I imagine some characters might even come to think that both deities power both classes.

As to clerics' more focused devotions, I would call their domains the marker of which deity they are most devoted to, but if a setting includes polytheistic cultures I would rule that in-character they could still be considered clerics of X, Y, and Z all at once. In my own games, I go further and have a houserule that clerics from polytheistic cultures can choose their domains from any offered by the deities in their pantheon.

Andrew R wrote:

Can a character have two divine casting classes with two different deities?

This is more a setting question than a rules question. Provided you can tell me how sucking up to one doesn't inherently mean you're violating the other, I'd let it fly.

Indeed, it has come up before. For concept clerics, I almost prefer polytheism, particularly if there is any mismatching of domains (Protection/Defense, Destruction being a prime example for my negative energy cleric).

Considering Desna may well be or have been in bed with Cayden, I don't see why should would be bothered by one of her male clergy revering Cayden, as a male aspect of her Travel/Luck portfolios. Likewise, As the wandering goddess, perhaps focusing the idea of Beauty and enhancing further the luck domain with Shelyn isn't too far off crazy.

Again, setting. The Elves of Kyonin are polytheistic in their own right, my half-elf of Greengold just took that to another path living in a mixed culture city of Elven influence and fighting in her Majesty's army. While I am not playing a Paladin, an Order of the Star Cavalier seems to fit these particular deities better, though Shelyn is known to have SOME paladins.

Oooh, dabbling in (thread-) necromancy! The frisson of the forbidden!

Anyway, as to the original question, I would agree that this is more to do with setting than rules as such. As Zhayne said, unless the two proposed patrons have incompatible ideals, I wouldn't have a problem with it; I imagine some characters might even come to think that both deities power both classes.

As to clerics' more focused devotions, I would call their domains the marker of which deity they are most devoted to, but if a setting includes polytheistic cultures I would rule that in-character they could still be considered clerics of X, Y, and Z all at once. In my own games, I go further and have a houserule that clerics from polytheistic cultures can choose their domains from any offered by the deities in their pantheon.

Andrew R wrote:

Can a character have two divine casting classes with two different deities?

This is more a setting question than a rules question. Provided you can tell me how sucking up to one doesn't inherently mean you're violating the other, I'd let it fly.

Indeed, it has come up before. For concept clerics, I almost prefer polytheism, particularly if there is any mismatching of domains (Protection/Defense, Destruction being a prime example for my negative energy cleric).

Considering Desna may well be or have been in bed with Cayden, I don't see why should would be bothered by one of her male clergy revering Cayden, as a male aspect of her Travel/Luck portfolios. Likewise, As the wandering goddess, perhaps focusing the idea of Beauty and enhancing further the luck domain with Shelyn isn't too far off crazy.

Again, setting. The Elves of Kyonin are polytheistic in their own right, my half-elf of Greengold just took that to another path living in a mixed culture city of Elven influence and fighting in her Majesty's army.

As time goes on his devotion to Desna, perhaps even his reverence to Cayden may more strongly outweigh his idolization of Shelyn.

To me, the pantheon is more relevant than the simple 1 deity rule, it isn't like it doesn't make sense to have one as a single focus, but polytheism is not unheard of...for a multi-classed half-elf character it almost works. I don't think my cleric is a cleric of Three Gods, he merely has reverence for all three, but a greater focus for Desna at this stage of his life. Unlikely that would shift, but if he sees something beautiful that humbles him or hears a baudy joke he may whisper or boast a word for Shelyn or Cayden Cailean.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Only clerics draw power from a god. Other divine classes do not normally. But I will say Gods do not like to share, why should they share a cleric with another god? Seems to me a road to being an ex-cleric.

I would say ask your GM as this is a totally setting based kind of question.

Yeah, it totally depends on the deity in question. Some deities might be buddies or partners of some sort and it's common to worship them as a single religion.

I don't see an issue with this perspective, though I understand the devotion to a single deity cleric concept.

I've taken a liking to a primary deity with underling or associated deity reverence and recognition. Especially for my Half-Elf and multi-classed clerics lately.

For example, for my mythic game I play a half-elf Cavalier (Order of the Star devoted to Desna) Who became a cleric (Battlefield convert to Shelyn) and was born with a fascination for Cayden Cailean (touch of divinity).
As he comes from Kyonin (via Green Gold), multiple deity worship is not frowned upon, though his current primary patron is in fact Desna, but when his martial duties press hard he finds solace in Cayden Cailean's focus on strength and humor. As a Neutral Good character, he sides more with Desna's wanderlust as a religious experience, but he is maintained by his devotion to the ideals of Shelyn in no small part (who he's found himself revering in lieu of his lost love, the unattainable Queen of Kyonin). Since Desna and Cayden sometimes share interests a d domains of Travel and Luck (Shelyn also has Luck) (also, the romantic notion of them being lovers appeals to me as a player). I play him somewhat as a concept cleric with a collection of holy symbols. He uses his glaive-guisarme far more than he's apt to whip out the star knife, but I like that his Cavalier Order of the Star should be devoted to Desna- demanding of course he preach her teachings in his exile and protect fellow travelers. Killing Demons is a means to an end (hoping to defeat Tree Razer ultimately), none of the deities he pray to would mind that so much as he tries to protect and keep a mind to the truth and beauty of the world without being too restrictive.

The chronological faith progression would go like this...born into a mixed race family, fascinated by Cayden Cailean (and also blessed with strength of arms), as he came into his own as a Cavalier he found his Lady and Patron (the queen), but was converted to Shelyn, and in his un-official exile finds his path and solace in searching the sky for answers and traveling on. Able to share in the teachings of Desna from such a unique perspective and as a means of distraction and refocusing of his love energy away from his unattainable object of desire and toward the goals that may save her and his kingdom ultimately and allow him to serve her will while finding his own path.

Simplified Cayden->Shelyn->Desna. First he was young and hot headed, then his passions were quelled by love of beauty and the pain of such devotion, from which he was forced to turn away and seek an epic quest to prove his worth to his queen and find meaning in the world for himself.

If my DM is okay rubber stamping it, it suits me fine. Of the Golarion pantheon they seem the most flexible three. As time goes on his devotion to Desna, perhaps even his reverence to Cayden may strongly outweigh his for Shelyn.

Enchant your cold iron Longspear (now or considerably later, just don't do Fire). You should be able to at least get a MW close range weapon (two-hander or another weapon you CAN two hand) worth your time. NOT sure from my recall of the AP though, just for buying purposes I would say that. I won't spoil any loot finds by saying these things.

A good two hander with a good reach weapon ought to be your bread and butter. I second most if not all of the spell/magical equipment suggestions.

Since you're apparently straight cleric (good for you!) increase casting stats and make up for the lack of BAB with better weapons where you can. Unless you gain proficiencies or a magical Longspear in loot, I would enchant your mw cold iron longspear as it will serve you well against foes vulnerable to the material and as an enhanced reach weapon it will keep you foes more at bay or taking AoO's. Don't enchant weapons with elemental damage and you should be fine with most choices that may catch your fancy.

Budget, save what you can, but gear up now because there isn't likely an adventure written that doesn't get tougher. Typically it isn't easier to buy basics later.

You can buy that shiny new magical Great Sword, but if you're playing reach cleric right, you'll use your polearm more often, then again, if something closes in enough that you have to pull out the greatsword, you'll definitely want to hit it and hard. Point of reach cleric is to take as many attacks and put out as much damage as is needed for you to do via reach and AoO's on threatened squares. It is as much avoiding direct assault as it is being prepared for it getting out of your control. I've had a lot of success so far with both the reach and the two-hander switch-hitter (range) combo. Cast buffs first, move into position and the rest will follow. Charge in with the two-hander if everything is going your way. Focus on Gorum and your strategy and you should be good.

That all said, buy what you lack. stock up on Divine scrolls. If you are so inclined for that cure light wounds wand, you might need it (hell, many players are amenable to covering a healing wand with party loot).

Personally, I would never spend good gold on a healing stick unless no one else was able to heal. As a positive energy cleric...not only can you drop prepared spells (not domain spells) for healing, you get plenty of channels if you don't tank your Charisma. It just takes careful timing and party coordination to apply well.

If you plan on being a personification of Battle, make sure you have the AC and HP to survive rushing in. If you're playing a reach cleric, your focus should be more on battlefield control, but hey, have fun! You have a good combo with Longspear/Great sword. Let the rest of the party do their thing and enjoy the bloodshed!

I did a 25 point buy HV as an angelkind aasimar with

STR 17 (+2 race,7)
DEX 13 (3)
CON 14 (5)
INT 12 (2)
WIS 14 (5)
CHA 15 (+2 race, 3)

That is a pretty good array that allows for improvement.

Humans make good vindicators though. I wouldn't nerf Cha or overly lower Wisdom (as is done here, improvement option of 16 CHA easy, 14 base wisdom) Not a laughable dex score, decent enough con and a respectably high starting strength.

My experience as a Holy Vindicator. Melee, yes please. Hitting harder and as often as the barbarian? Not gonna happen. Get the channel where you want them (if she wants to heal don't do what I do and go negative energy, though it is brutal for channel smite). Focus on the shield buff, so mithral heavy shield or what have you, decent armor will work.

Suggest she take Protection domain Defense Subdomain for one of her domains- Barkskin as a domain spell is badass (as DM you might be frustrated by the HV ability to TANK). (Strength or War make excellent send choices).

Divine Power and such are necessary, as stated previously, buffing before combat where possible is essential to the HV making hits. Mine had an ultimately fatal reputation for having a deathwish, so I don't suggest she play it that way.

With reduced spellcasting, you have to play to the strengths, that's why when I played I did what I could to max out my AC (short of adamantine full-plate). I did take a dip as Fighter, thus a suggestion of Human for at least one extra feat. losing spell levels will hurt more if that dip is more pronounced.

This is why I stacked AC bonuses where I could (deflection, natural armor, armor, shield, vindicator's shield, dodge? Morale and Luck are not to be neglected either).

At one point I broke past 30 ac without Plate around 13th level or so with buffs. It was hard for bad guys to hit me. My fellow players killed my character when I wasn't around by assuming I actually had a higher level spell (anti-magic field) than I had, tossing all my magical buffs and items out of the window, somewhat respectably his sacrifice got the big bad. Geth did have a tendency to throw himself into combat with an almost suicidal disregard for his personal safety, especially when someone else (And someone more pure or weaker than him) was in danger.

If there's one problem (other than losing spell levels) with the Holy Vindicator from my experience playing clerics since is that it doesn't translate well into a Reach Cleric build, but that's probably not the style she would want to play, the advantage of it though is the ability to buff in combat, threaten and make AoO's and then start doing damage or healing as necessary. The better than average BaB progression helps though, it just has trouble catching up with the slow cleric track. at least one level of fighter (no more than 2, even there I think you miss out on 9th level spells, :/ ) is almost obligatory for strong melee focus. If the fighter is already going stalwart defender, then the party will do well to put damage out at range first (magic, that inquistor's range attacks...for example). My HV had a crossbow and a similar spiritual weapon as a cleric of Abadar. I wouldn't play a character without at least some limited range options. Dex helps, but isn't essential for a combat cleric.

Notably there is a fighter archetype that would allow reach weapon and shield usage, but I don't think it is worth that kind of munchkin tactics.

I appreciate the multitude of responses from our peers on heres already.

As someone who seems to play clerics (or cleric multiclasses) almost exclusively, I would consider what type of Cleric you want to play, and likewise, advise against a "pure healer" build. The high Charisma for channeling is good advice toward that goal, however high Charisma is not that useful a stat to buff up to 18 apart from that, focusing on Channel can eat up your feats for not much pay off.
Dropping a prepared spell for heal spells is certainly useful, but as someone who intentionally played a negative energy tank, you can do without it if there is alternative healing (MOST prepared APs and Modules have at least SOME magical healing available, but it is always good to have party produced backs ups).

So, if I am hearing you right, you want to stand back. Great. Heal? You'll do fine with a high Charisma, a decent Wisdom and positive energy. What sort of Deity/Concept will your Cleric devote himself too? That negative energy cleric was devoted to the ideas of destruction and retribution in service of the Lawful Neutral Abadar. These things help your path, If your DM allows, picking your Domains over Deity priority can be powerful. Enlarge is a good spell, btw, it only comes on your list via certain Domains (Strength).

As a new player, I recommend you stick to core Domains and whatever Deities your DM recommends.

I currently play my own concept cleric/cavalier (or clevalier if you will). Admittedly, I am a bit of munchkin, so the character is more effective than your average multiclass, but it focused on an idea of using pole arms and is further enhanced by the tactics and build concepts of the "Reach Cleric."

I can scarcely convey how powerful the combination of decent base attack, a reach weapon and combat reflexes with a decent dex and stats is for my character.

The idea that I can start early (high-dex and/or improved initiative crucial), position my character, threaten 10ft out and choose to buff or take another action and simply THREATEN Attacks of Opportunity against melee and caster opponents is pretty badass. Some special character creation and I get Enlarge as a once per day ability and I can increase that reach to 15 and double the damage dice. I play a switch hitter, so a two-hander close range and a bow are essential, but yes, all those options can be difficult for a new player (and the lack of feats, special ability balancing and skill selection can be challenging to say the least).

SO, my advice?

Take a decent domain (maybe for both domains) that appeals to you, (Strength, Travel, Luck and Protection all seem better than average and still work with basic concept). Your group will be good enough at damage dealing, but lacking in casting.

Go full cleric

(or multiclass no more than 3 levels, or lose no more than 3 casting levels prestige classing, that way you will get 9th level spells, domain spells typically being the best spells if you choose well).

that way you get full casting. Pick up a long spear regardless of favored weapon *(you'll be proficient regardless) and option the high-initiative strategy of moving up to 15ft away or so away from melee foes (Watch out for that 5ft square! You will not be able to attack adjacent foes without switching weapons or five foot adjustments)

The gunslinger is already deadly accurate and high damage at 10ft (or further if they go rifle), so you threatening at 10 ft as Attack of Opportunity blocker would do him some favors and still keep you safe when he shoots whoever attacks you on his next turn.

Protect the witch, bonus. When the barbarian rushes in, switch to support and/or combat in close or use your reach to control squares you threaten to protect the witch and bard who will not be as eager to rush into combat either. You can heal the party within 20 ft via channel or drop a prepared spell to touch them for d8 cure spells.

Everybody wins and the likelyhood of people dying without doing something stupid or getting really unlucky go down.

Most of all? Play a character you want to play.

Many of my characters have a dip in Profession. While not very useful, it can help RP and with occasional rolls that may not be already covered by the skill-monkey jack of all trades Bard (and possibly Gunslinger).

I would pick soldier, sailor, artisan or herbalist over "Architect," but you bring your own flavor to the game.

Remember, casters and healbots who stand off from the action get targeted by non-engaged foes as a rule, you will get bloody, so don't neglect your Armor Class or Constitution if you can. High Dex and reasonably non-restrictive armor will help with this at low levels at least.

Keep in mind! Your best friend is early warning and with preparation the Cleric Spellbook is tough to beat!

Scribe scroll is handy, but not necessary for divine casters (buy scrolls, prep well ahead and watch your channels to keep the party alive). The good thing about preparing or buying scrolls is having that odd utility or emergency spell ready when you wouldn't have normally prepared it.

You only have to have fun playing, but if you want to be an effective partner, don't dump your Cleric's wisdom or physical stats so you don't get him or the rest of the party in deadly trouble.

Pardon the Thread Resurrection, but I must ask.

Do we have another way for Cavalier to get shared spells (preferably divine spells via Cleric) for his mount?

I would be somewhat begrudged to have to pick Paladin for personal spells. Personal spells via Travel domain and the Exploration or Defense subdomains would be nice to share. While I'm not going to complain so much about not sharing longstrider or expeditious retreat, defensive personal spells like could really save a mount from untimely death. (Hello Wrath of the Righteous! I'm an Order of the Star Cavalier for Desna. Nice to meet you Mr. DemonLord! Please help yourself to my horse!)

Tis sad. I doubt I'd dip or go Oracle (Even with the mount), but I am going to look at it now. I need to shake my cleric addiction.