Mr. Barroth's page

Hello all, I'm back from working a lot. Thanks for replying to my post! I was pretty sleep deprived when I wrote this (Two days without sleep and then manically writing the campaign). My main thing was that there were so many contradictions and exceptions to what does and doesn't have a soul. A lot of you shared valuable opinions so thank you for that. Personally I think the main reason why Paizo might have made animated objects have no souls definitively is for a game balance reason. If animated objects have souls, you can make a farm them for soul trapping. Incredibly evil, but efficient I suppose.

It could get more or less complicated when you look at things like the mummy's mask adventure path that goes into depth about the Osirion relgion. No spoilers but there's three parts of a being their Ba (personality, or psyche), Ib (emotions, will, and thoughts) and ka (vital spark).

I'm also fairly there were other parts in actual egyptian relgion but you could work with this perhaps. . .

Every being has a spirit (animating life force this includes things like intelligent items), some things have a mind (emotions, desires, will not everything has this e.g. an animated object can have a spirit but no mind its just controlled and obeying simple programming) then finally they have a soul. This is a nebulous thing gained by things that evolve far enough e.g. a human has a soul, androids have a soul, willow the wisps have a soul. A being can possess all three (human mind/soul/spirit), one of them (animated object spirit) or a combination of them (ghost mind/soul).

You still need to decide what constitutes evolved enough as you keep hitting exceptions e.g. free will seems a good start but dominate person denies you that free will.

My favorite prestige class is Living Monolith so I was aware of this and took it into consideration but wasn't aware of just how interesting it would be. I might have to bring it up in the campaign now. It also does kind of align with my idea that the animated object must "evolve". For a theoretical sense since Animated Object or Awaken can be made permanent they have practically all of existence to evolve. If a stuffed teddy bear had the capability to read and read all the Manuals of Improvement for the mental ability scores, would that jump start an evolutionary process to become a soul? Also for the religion aspect I intend on having a faction of Groetus in the campaign that highlights the soul aspect of religion.

I'm going to go with a likely unpopular position: Anything that possesses an Int, Wis, AND Cha score has a soul. Whether it is a piece mail thing created temporarily through powerful magic, remnants of an existing soul brought back together briefly from the substance that makes up the plane(s), or the soul of a being that simply responds to and shows up for the magic to work, it qualifies.

Whatever implications that has for moral or ethical concerns is irrelevant to me, and likely adds more weight to anyone that toys with that kind of magic to do so with the right intentions. I am aware of the shadow this casts over a large area of magic that people like to toy around with.

This is something I pondered over too and I was on the fence about for a long while and think it brings up very overlooked parts of the Golarion story. While Necromancers are usually pretty despised, would animating objects and nurturing them to have true souls be considered incredibly irresponsible/blasphemy? It's definitely a large part of what I'm trying to explore here.

Senko wrote:

Do AI have all three? I mean full AI like the ones in the computers in Iron Gods not android AI who have a mobile body.

As far as I am aware (and I have run Iron Gods to completion as a GM), most of the robots that appear in the book that possess an Int score, have all three mental stats. Androids included. Bodies are not required for something to be considered a soul, as far as I am concerned.

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Though speaking of androids given they reset the personality in the body every hundred years or so there is the rather curious question of does that come with a new soul while the old one departs to their afterlife or is it a more efficient version of religions where the soul evolves through various incarnations (worm, animal, human, enlightentment) with the soul learning and evolving through numerous lives?

Yes, androids get a new 'soul' every time they reset.

Archives of Nethys wrote:

What separates androids from golems and other mindless constructs is that androids are living beings and as such possess souls. Similarly, androids don’t live forever, though barring violence or tragedy their bodies never deteriorate. Rather, an android’s cybernetic mind eventually shuts down and self-restarts after about a century, leaving its body vacant for several weeks as the old soul departs for its final reward in the Great Beyond and a fresh, new soul finds its way into the shell.

Source

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I really don't like that though especially as its a bit contradictory. It say's a soul that doesn't serve a god goes to the plane its suited to but a soul that believes there are no gods or weren't passionate in life just get tossed on the scrap heap. So you have to believe in gods but not a god and be passionate in life only to wind up getting judged by a god whether you get to stay or go to hell. It also runs into issues with things like the Osirion afterlife. Also rather implies that undead have no soul

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Since DeathlessOne seems to get what I'm putting down I'm going to quote them again here. The idea that objects can't possess souls was never in the window for me. Like I pointed out with the wyrwoods and androids it does exist canonically. Therefore why do living bodies nurture souls so much more often? Like I said before some of that must have to do with game balance but overall I think it is something Paizo simply... hasn't maybe explored like they should. If anyone has anything new to add or maybe more thoughts feel free to keep it going or message me.

Like the post says I am wondering if animated objects or objects that have been around long enough to form some level of sentience possess a "soul". I am going to be running a game based off of Pinocchio/Frankenstein/Astro Boy/others. I know this is a bit of a nebulous, philosophical question but it is important for what I want to run. I know tsukumogami exist, but it states that they form an amalgam with a kami so that's not really much of a confirmation. Wyrwood exist, do they count? What about Androids?

If an object that awakened prays to a god, does the god hear it? If a sentient object dies, does it go to the boneyard with the rest of the mortals or does it simply slip away into nothing? There may be some content that exists that I haven't dug up yet about this but I thought this might be a good place to ask. Once I thought of this question it started tearing me apart mentally. Also, what about animated plants? Animals? At what point does a thing have enough of a "soul" to be considered different? Are haunts a symptom of this sometimes? What about a robot whose AI evolves on its own?

Can they find a way to transfer their souls from their "objective" bodies into a new one, like with 'Magic Jar' or 'Soul Switch'? If they cannot what makes them unable to do so? The confines of their origin, divine intervention, or is the magic just not tailored to them? If I had an abacus who had a developed personality, a taste in music, a preference in room temperature, and a developed sense of morality, would he be enough to be considered as having a soul? I know this mostly up to me as a GM but I wanted to know what the official stance on this was and if I missed anything.

TLDR; Yo, does my animated toilet have a soul and should I feel guilty? Also where do they go when they die.