Mindlessinvalid's page

At least you are living up to your name...

As if I've never heard that one before. At least Orfamay Quest and The Archive actually had compelling arguments. I concede.

See, the trick to convincing someone that they are wrong is to actually provide evidence that they are wrong.

That said, the RAW of Baleful Polymorph is pretty dicey in regards to how it relates to the conflicting polymorph rule, but a helpful and competent fellow has pointed out my mistake regarding how it should be interpreted. Using my own words, no less.

That's an awfully contrived interpretation of that rule. There are a number of underlying assumptions that show up no-where else in any rules interaction.

We know the following things hold true in general:

-Spells that only affect willing targets fail on unwilling targets (no save).

-The subject of an ongoing Polymorph subschool spell can choose whether or not they want to have a new polymorph effect affect them.

-Baleful Polymorph dispels an ongoing polymorph effect if they fail their save.

-Other effects like spell resistance and immunities are taken into account before a save is rolled.

-If Baleful Polymorph (and by extension Polymorph Any Object) DID ignore the rule regarding choosing whether or not to be affected; that clause in the Polymorph Subschool would literally never apply in any situation ever. (that is to say that only those two spells meet the requirements for that clause to even be relevant in the first place)

So you're asking me to believe, without any support from any actual rules or precedents, that:

- For some reason being explicitly able to ignore an effect is irrelevant to whether or not that effect can affect you.

-That for some reason you roll the save BEFORE being allowed to have the option to ignore the effect (thus making that clause moot in this instance)

-That for some reason that this clause behaves differently from every other similar effect, that are all otherwise handled uniformly.

-And that, by extension of the aforementioned assumptions, an entire very straightforward clause of the polymorph sub-school rules doesn't apply at all to any part of the game.

Yeaahhhhhh.... No.

Polymorph Subschool contains the general rules regarding the ability. The spell has specific rules regarding its own interaction.

Specific > General in an exception based rule set.

"Any polymorph effects on the target are automatically dispelled when a target fails to resist the effects of baleful polymorph"

If we focus on the fact that Baleful Polymorph only dispels ongoing polymorph effects when the target fails to resist it, then we can safely assume that the clause in the subschool where it says you can choose not to be affected supersedes it.

You're not making a save, thus you aren't failing to resist Baleful Polymorph.

Most Polymorph spells are at a range of personal, so that rule from the subschool doesn't apply there. Polymorph (as in the spell) requires a willing target, so only Polymorph any Object and Baleful Polymorph require a save.

If we assume that Baleful Polymorph, for some inconceivable reason, DOESN'T follow this rule then the rule doesn't apply at ALL. Polymorph Any Object can either be Greater Polymorph+ (which is subject to the same target restrictions as Polymorph, I would assume) or just replicates Baleful Polymorph and a selection of other transmutation spells that do work on unwilling targets.

In which case we are left with an explicit clause in the rules regarding spell interactions that will never actually happen.

First time poster, long time lurker. This is pulled from the Core Book under the rules surrounding the polymorph subschool. I hate to necropost a necropost. (a month is considered dead, right?)

"You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."

It seems to me that it would force an "Unwilling Target" scenario, where Baleful Polymorph would only work on a willing previously polymorphed target. It says that the previous polymorph is dispelled when the victim fails their save, but RAW says you can choose if it affects you or not if you're already under the effects of a polymorph spell. Not that I can think of any inherently obvious and non-contrived reasons to WANT to be turned into a newt. I guess convincing someone that the spell is beneficial and they should let it happen...

and on topic as to the dispel argument, it says right in the book that any spell with a duration of permanent is subject to dispel magic. It's just Curse subschool spells that require those extensive measures.