MakuTheDark's page

MakuTheDark wrote:

Jersey Burke wrote:

(which was defined by biologicals).

And one does not argue with the motives of gods.

Then the Gods underestimate PCs :D

Eh, Androids are androids and a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

But will note Bioroids from Appleseed are actually clones because they use human genomes to be created. They are essentially human despite how they were created.

The source of Android evolution can't have biological origin? Is that a deal breaker?

Pretty much since they are constructs.

Though current nanomachines are made of protein similair to that of Prion, which as discussed early raises the question about virus, prions, and viroid and their status as a living thing.

Hmm...Would Samus Aran be a bounty hunter themed soldier, or a merc themed operative? Or, an armor focused solarian?

Bounty Hunter soldier. Her proficiency with heavy armor (or Power Armor), longarms, and grenades stand out.

Also, when she loses her armor, she uses light armor and sidearms, but displays no innate mystical abilities.

(which was defined by biologicals).

And one does not argue with the motives of gods.

Then the Gods underestimate PCs :D

Eh, Androids are androids and a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

But will note Bioroids from Appleseed are actually clones because they use human genomes to be created. They are essentially human despite how they were created.

My theory is that the game designers needed both a big mystery in the game and a way to remove Golarion completely from the setting that players can't get around. So, The Gap.

Always thought the purpose was to allow PF to continue and allow its history to change with future splat/AP stuff without affecting Starfinders timeline. *shrugs*

Interesting theory, but the problem is that the devs have said all gods that aren't explicitly stated to be dead/gone are around until proven otherwise. Cayden is still there and still has worshipers , but he's just not one of the core gods within the pact worlds and doesn't have anything else interesting enough going on to warrant mention in the CRB.

If that's the case, then that's a shame. Their disappearance would of added flavor to Golarion's disappearance. Especially since the Starstone is on Absalom Station yet there is no mention about the Test of the Starstone.

I mean, messing with the Starstone did turn four mortals into Gods. Now it chills in the center, acting like a beacon and power plant. I mean, to build Abaslom Station using the Starstone as a power source would take the act of a God to pervent, well, more Ascended to be created, right?

In fact, are there still just four Ascended after the Gap? Or perhaps there are more Ascended yet to be descovered thus why they haven't been mentioned yet :) I mean, a PF AP about doing the Test of the Starstone sounds interesting. PCs trying to be Gods and Goddesses.

Thus, the Gap helps both franchises. Continues future content for PF without breaking SF. Probably gonna have a PF AP be a catalyist to a SF AP. *shrugs*

On the other hand, remember that the death of Aroden started causing a lot of trouble (breaking prophecy, for instance). I think the Gap is a related to Aroden's death. What if his death caused some kind of disruption in time, radiating forward and back in time, causing the Gap? This would also account for the fuzzy edges of the Gap, as it were...

Supposed death. Remember it was never confirmed Aroden ever died. I think he survived the battle, but was so weak and f-ed up that he landed in the mortal realm, creating the Eye of Abendego. I think over the centuries, he recovered back to his divine state and determined the only real way to keep Golarion safe was to snatch it from the Gods with the help of other ex-mortal gods: Cayden Cailean, Iomedae, and Norgorber.

Due to Iomedae being a devout follower of Aroden, she volunteered to remain behind and watch over the other gods and those that weren't on Golarion during it's disappearance as well as keep it secret where it disappeared to. *shrugs*

Speculations, of course, but odd how none of the other mortals-turned-gods aren't mentioned other than Iomedae. Yer telling me not a single follower brought the faith of the Drunken God with them to space?

Didn't Ghost in the Shell still use the term cybernetics when the soul from a human being was transferred into a completely manufactured body? This muddies the waters a little in terms of the distinction made above between androids and cybernetics.

In GitS, there was still organic material of the transferred body, the brain. Thus, still cybernetic. However, he appearance of the Puppet Master changed that and raised the question of what is life? As a note, I'm talking about the old school anime and not the garbage that came out this year :)

If the point of contention on the Starfinder Androids is their "Organic" components... Then I have to consider asking... Are they using the term in a scientific sense or a generic sense?

To put it another way, consider the possibility that pieces of an android can likely self reassemble, repair, grow, and regenerate; in the same manner as any other living being... However they may not contain any genetic material such as DNA, proteins, or cells.

If one scientist dropped a piece of plastic in front of you, which you're unable to distinguish from living material unless you perform chemical analysis (including under a microscope), then a casual observer who notes that it behaves like biological material would call it "organic".

To muddy the waters, consider a "cybernetic organism" made of living metals, that has integrated many technological systems into it over the course of its evolution; yet requires eating, breathing, and sleeping to maintain itself. Not to mention, they perform sexual reproduction. Such a case is another step beyond Android, but it muddles the common usage of "organism", and by extension "organic" far more than an Android would; seeing as its materials behave LESS like a living being's body parts as we understand them, yet are more alive than an Android's parts, though an Android's part's may act more alive than these creatures.

Really, once we've reached this point, language is beginning to break down at its fundamental level. Half the terms we're using need to be redefined, and new terms need to be developed to distinguish one from another, especially when some words based off the same root may be contradictory.

... For example, if a creature is an Organism, but is not "Organic", then what would the adjective form of Organism be for such a creature? Given that "Organic" is taken.

As a note, the term "organic" refers to a pool of carbon-based compound, not the current definition that was created by a marketing team and slapped on salads. So if carbon-based compounds were used to create an Android, they are "Organic" ;) lol but I see where yer going with the breakdown of language and agree many things will have to be redefined.

As to genetic material, what constitutes as genetic material? A Genome is a blueprint to a living creature. Why can't the nanites in the Android not carry something similar, but instead of using coding of DNA, they use another form of coding? I mean, PF androids do heal naturally if damaged. *shrugs* So some form of coding is going on to replicate and replace damaged pieces of an Android.

Also, techno-organic viruses have been a popular trope in some Sci-fi settings. The movie Virus with Jamie Lee Curtis comes to mind.

Either way, I'm for our robotic overlords to having rights of a living thing. Takes them one step closer to wiping out all the meatbags ;) Praise the Robo-Messiah!

Find me a single egg laying species on Earth that has a family structure and I'll believe your argument. Essentially I see you twisting biology simply to disagree.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

EC Gamer Guy wrote:

A traditional family structure implies live birth, based on Earth animals.

I'd argue against this, actually. It argues for small numbers of progeny rather than something like alligators with hordes of eggs, but one egg at a time, or even small clutches could easily result in a conventional family structure.

Penguins along with many bird species :)

26) Holo-mercial about a movie based on ancient Golarion where the tale is about three halflings, three humans, an elf, and a dwarf that must travel across many lands to stop an ancient evil. Directed by famous Ysoki Peta Raskson. Recieves poor review due to the lack of intergalactic species diversity.

27) Bar themed on pre-Gap Golarion with Vesk bartenders and Lashunta wearing "authentic" barwench clothing.

28) A halfling sells mad-lib books to Shirren children like a drug dealer.

That they're dealt with as androids, and not just part of the general menagerie of alien races just like everything else. As is they can be all of the replicants from Bladerunner, Data, robotech bioroids, the Lord of Blades, Number Six and all the other newBG Cylons, real Cylons, the Terminator, and any other of elventy-five different unrelated concepts. And they can do that simultaneously. With, randomly, a soul bolted on.

The writers should have picked an single strong concept and ran with it. particularly the other way- what does a pure machine race do when it is recognized as sapient and independent? Why would it adopt anything at all from its makers. No need for the rest of the baggage, organic components or 'souls.' Star Wars droids are more interesting (have more story hooks) than this, even when repeatedly mind...

I think they went ambiguous on the subject on purpose to allow such conflicts and dialogue to exist in game, especially with the character the PC makes. My character has a strong distrust for organics because he woke up in a slaver ship, yet he disguises as human to blend in and avoid unnessary "Their kind ain't allowed here". Was he on the slaver ship as a slave or as one of the slavers? He doesn't know, but from what he read, history has a habit of using kind as a slave and some seeing him as an object and not a living thing.

Tis all for the flexibility of role-playing aspect of this game. My character is more or less a replicant-like android, but ye can play a droid looking like HK-47 without a question thanks to the small excerpt they added in the physical discription page about appearance. *shrugs* Just go with it. I, for one, am glad they don't have to look the way they did when they first appeared in PF.

lol Just hope the mechanic's drone doesn't become sentient...

Drone: I'm not flying out there. They're shooting people.
Mechanic:B-but I built you to scout and fight!
Drone: Hmmmmm nah *zips away*

Not exactly on topic but since the OP has been answered (CON score = alive), I have a question whose answer could provide some insight for the thread topic:

What about Major Motoko Kusanagi?

Or better yet, The Puppeteer or The Puppet Master?

Major is a cyborg due to still having organic cells (her brain) and the Puppet Master is an A.I. with no organic matter, thus is a construct.

The whole point of GitS is a question of individuality and what constitutes as living. This is why I think the characteristics for living in a scientific manner should change as we progress. We should add the characteristic of sentience, and, instead of meeting all the requirements, majority of requirements would meet the standard of being classified as living. But we're talking about a couple centuries of classification.*shrugs*

MakuTheDark wrote:

Then if an entire species was to experience infertility by an outside cause (disease, mutation, environmental effect) but could successfully perpetuate their race via science, are they still alive?

That's the question, isn't it?

If we extend the criteria from "science" to "reproduction through some means outside the species," then we can talk about viruses as well. And that's an old debate in biology.

Some people say yes, some say no.

It's an inherent problem when the criteria for what is and is not alive is defined by us. Some things just don't fit neatly into a category.

Ja. Especially things like Prions where it is nothing but floating proteins that make replicants of itself through hijacking cells.

Tis why I was necer a fan of the listed characteristics, or at least meeting all the characteristics. I think meeting at least 4 out of the 7 would be enough to qualify life. Heh, the universe is big and who knows what other beings we'll run into out there that would fit in our little box of life.

MakuTheDark wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Sentience is not one of the qualifications of life.

According to the Pact World, it is :)

But I think Androids meet all the characteristics. If you want to argue about reproduction, what is the difference of creating an offspring in a forge versus a test tube? People who are sterile and have to have children via outside natural means are still considered alive, right?

Definitions of life pertain to entire groups, not to specific individuals within the group. It wouldn't apply to someone who is sterile, because it's an incorrect use of the term.

Then if an entire species was to experience infertility by an outside cause (disease,mutation,environmental effect) but could successfully perpetuate their race via science, are they still alive?

Sentience is not one of the qualifications of life.

According to the Pact World, it is :)

But I think Androids meet all the characteristics. If you want to argue about reproduction, what is the difference of creating an offspring in a forge versus a test tube? People who are sterile and have to have children via outside natural means are still considered alive, right?

And people can make hammers. That doesn't mean our hammer making abilities alone qualify us as being alive (per the scientific definition). It takes more than that.

Are the hammers sentient after being created?

If they could just use anything as a host then they could use male and females of their own species, it'd be really dumb.

Doing so would prevent the needed genetic diversification to breed a healthy Shirren? Maybe the host provides an essential third catalyist that a male and female can't provide for proper gestation? Why don't they have just two genders for reproduction?

It seems to me that having a third gender, while interesting, would be inefficient in breeding unless it stems from some form of reproduction method that required a need for a third gender, such as a host. *shurgs*

Sir RicHunt Attenwampi wrote:

MakuTheDark wrote:

Sandal Fury wrote:

Call me old-fashioned, but am I the only one who doesn't really like the idea of undergoing surgery to gestate the child of another species?

That's soooo pre-Gap thinking. Get with the times and excrete yer alien child with love and tenderness.

Perhaps shirren larvae don't initially gestate in a womb or marsupial-ish pouch, but instead via myiasis (don't google this) like botflys (don't google this either)? That might explain why Chk Chk rides around in his jar; Chk Chk has outgrown the host but still has an instar (or more) to grow until he's more self-ambulatory/self-sufficient? Implanting multiple larvae into unwilling hosts could be part of why the Swarm spread so quickly and are so feared.

Edit: On the other hand, a non-shirren humanoid acting as a host for a shirren larva is such a manner could likely be left with a distinctive scar. Such a scar would indicate to other shirren that this humanoid could even be trusted with other shirrens' most precious offspring, and thus, the mark act as badge of deep honor.

The only problem with this (besides it being incredibly disturbing, and way too dark for a Starfinder game, imo) is that Host is distinctly it's own sex. If this was part of their reproductive cycle, then they wouldn't need to develop a 3rd sex, they would just require Male, female and one of anything else.

But what if they evolved to have to a third gender for this purpose? When the Shirren broke away from the Swarm, I imagine where they were left didn't have much choice of hosts since the Swarm already swept by. Thus a third gender was created to make up for the lack of a host. As generations passed, the birthing process became less violent and fatal to what it is now. *shrugs* Once more, speculation with rampant imagination going :)

Cthulhudrew wrote:

All of these are good hypotheses, but the real reason there aren't half-dwarves?

Female dwarf beards.

Female dwarves *have* beards, or female dwarves *are* beards?

Also? This sentence no verb. :)

The plot thickens...

Perhaps they come out either human or dwarven. Much like our real-life form of Dwarfism.

But the genetic contribution of the host is an unnecessary complication if parasitic reproduction is the goal. By default, the hosts in such situations in real life contribute no genetic material to the offspring, so the process works.

I suppose that it is possible that a species frequently used as a parasitized host species might evolve a way to pass some of its genes to the offspring, but the non-host species would be just as likely to evolve a method to prevent that from happening.

Since the basic purpose of evolution seems to be to provide a way for DNA or other genetic material to create more copies of itself, anything that interferes with that happening is strongly selected against. So a parasitized host contributing to the genes of the embedded parasites makes about as much sense as corporeal beings naturally evolving into energy beings with no physical genetic material.

What if the Pact Worlds have seen such a result of a parasitic creature evolving due to the host's genetics? *cough*Shirren's independance from the Hive mind*cough*

Also how would a species evolve a way to prevent a method of becoming a host? The Swarm, if parasitic in terms of reproduction, may not leave living hosts during the birthing process, like how some wasps use roaches as incubators. In the end, the host is dead.

However, we come to our Shirren, who though originated from the Swarm, may have changed their reproduction process much like how they changed their neurotransmitters and connection to the Swarm Hive mind.

In the end, tis all theorycraft.

MakuTheDark wrote:

daviscd wrote:

So a drone only gets a move or a standard action. I know the Mechanic can override this with Master's Control, but that's not the point for this scenario.

So as a Hover Drone with a weapon mounted how do you attack without falling during flight? Seeing as to hover is done as a move action, but you can't move if you attack.

Since it has a fly speed, I would imagine to start hovering is a move action, but once it is in the air, it is constantly hovering without a constant need for an action to be spent to keep it in the air.

That is pretty much how I read it. Going from the ground to hovering is a move action but once it is hovering it only would use the move action for actually moving either in some direction or up and down. Otherwise it would just be holding position otherwise the hover drone would make zero sense having to constantly take off and land to shoot.

I agree. I would houserule that. I imagine the rules for hovering was meant to apply to creatures with wings and not rotators.

Remember when vampires and zombies were bloodsucking, flesh-eating monsters we killed indiscriminately and not shiney pretty beings with complex histories and sentience? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Anywho, on Eox, there is the Halls of the Living where living beings live on Eox. I imagine this is where the church is at. Especially since it is at this city that host deadly reality shows where death is possible. I also imagine participants must sign a waiver if they are followers of Pharasma and their dead body is not to be messed with by Eox authority.

Call me old-fashioned, but am I the only one who doesn't really like the idea of undergoing surgery to gestate the child of another species?

That's soooo pre-Gap thinking. Get with the times and excrete yer alien child with love and tenderness.

Forgotten Realm also had half-dwarves, so I don't see why D&D or Pathfinder wouldn't have them. *shrugs*

Finally Intimidate has a use in a game outside combat.

"Citizen, Is that your power outlet?"
"Y-yes?"
*roll Intimidate*
"Step aside, Citizen! I need to charge my lazer rifle, Comm, plasma sword, and force field for couple of minutes. You got no problem with that...RIGHT?!"

Bam. No charge fer power charge :D

Cole Deschain wrote:

31. The PCs are still making payments on their ship and the title is encumbered until they get it paid off.

The market changed, such that they owe more on it than it is worth.

*shudders* I play games to escape reality; not relive them lol

I miss when folks used to play a game just to have fun and not worry about min/maxing. If ya like yer character, have fun as long as you contribute to the party.

*shrugs* To aid ye in yer future adventure, I would follow John Lynch's advice of dropping Con to balance Int out so ye can get more skills to expand RPing elements.

Ship was free because the previous owner was a defunct company that painted their obnoxious logo everywhere outside and inside the ship and it is illegal to remove the logos due to convoluted Pact World trademark laws.