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The duplicated 4th level spell is the *effect* of the Shadow Evocation spell - in all ways your caster is still casting Shadow Evocation.

A wizard would have to prep a maximized Shadow Evocation - if that's possible (I don't feel like looking up the rules right now for specifics).

A sorcerer would have to spontaneously cast a maximized shadow evocation (same disclaimer on me being too lazy to look up specifics).


Well, I must admit to having read this *entire* thread over the last couple of weeks... quite the little time-capsule experiment going on here, I must say!

When this thread started...

1) Unemployment was 1/2 what it is now...
2) Most were blissfully ignorant that housing was drastically over-valued...
3) Gas was creeping above $2.00/gallon, and we were *PISSED* about it...
4) Our rate of economic *growth* was slowing... oh the tragedy!
5) GM was still making a ... what's that word I'm looking for... starts with a "p"... hang on, I'll find it... (this is personal to me, as I have contracted to them for 10 years now).

And after everything that has happened since January '06 - after living on a shoestring budget while eliminating $60,000 in *bad* debt (yeah, that's right, collections and everything) while avoiding bankruptcy - while trying to prepare for the inevitable job hunt (and although I seem to have survived that, you never know) - after adapting to single parenthood while relocating with a child 4 times just to keep employed - after the kid's mom completely disappeared for this entire time - after working through multiple break-downs on an old car before it finally gave up with 300,000 miles on it *in early October 2008 as the global financial sector suffered a nervous breakdown* (and having to get a car loan on the *day*, October 4th 2008, when the world's finances stood still, with *MY* credit)...

After all of that (as well as the earlier divorce, DUIs, brush with alcoholism, 90 hour work weeks, etc etc etc)... here is my RANT:

Why do I still stress about GAMING?!?!? I find myself fuming for two days after the game. Because of stupid players doing stupid things... here are just a few examples:

1) Sulking in the corner because your character can't hit the BBEG unless he rolls a 16. For crying out loud, dude - you're 40! We have hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands, of pages of gaming material - you can't find *something* in there *somewhere* to do? DO something, man! ANYTHING! Anyone can recognize that actions are king in this game - DON"T GIVE UP YOUR ACTIONS! Oh, and you're playing a cleric. Just a minor nudge... you're playing a cleric.

2) To our "optimizer"... you optimize, min-max, scour prestige classes for synergies, turn over every rock, look in every nook and cranny - and you come to the table with a specially prepared Undead Hunter (full BAB, rogue sneak attack:undead only, paladin spell list, ranger fighting styles and favored enemy:undead) base class painstakingly prepared by your DM (who wasn't me in this case) and you jump into Suel Arcanamach! So you have this class that essentially makes you an Undead killing machine, and your idea of "optimized" is to stop advancing sneak attack and slow down your BAB progression - oh, wait, you multi over to Abjurant Champion - OK, we can work with that, I suppose... then you start complaining about your spells - that abjuration, transmutation, divination, and illusion aren't doing it for you, that you can't hit anything (this is important for later, and there's more to it than being a TWF melee character watered down with a 3/4 BAB class)... fine, I'll humor you. "What spells do you have?" I ask. Some list of nonsense, he answers. "You're short a second level spell", I comment. "Oh, yeah, I couldn't find anything", he answers. DEEP BREATHS... very calmly, open the Spell Compendium. Turn it to the spells beginning with "W". Narrowed down to the "WR" list - calmly point to "Wraithstrike" and suggest that perhaps, just maybe, he might want to take *that* spell - not that I want to run his character for him (he's quite sensitive about that).
So with all the rocks you turned over - all your cranny searching - all your mad synergy skillz - you somehow missed the most perfectly abusable spell for your character?
Jeez - how can you... I mean, who in their right mind... er, ARRRRGH!!! Why wouldn't anyone who is building a gish for a campaign that still allows Wraithstrike *NOT* have that spell as their great big neon light spell?!?!?

3) To the dude playing a Psion - quit begging for phat loot. You don't need any. You've twinked your character. Loot will pale in comparison next to your seemingly infinite PSPs that you use to charge seemingly 5 actions per round. Stop complaining. Stop developing bizarre, convoluted schemes to "more fairly divide the treasure". We assign items based on who gains the most benefit from using the item. In other words - when we're in combat, you shouldn't be using some stupid item. Your standard actions should be used to BLOW STUFF UP! And your Move actions. And your Swift Actions. Not your immediate actions, though - use those to gain more actions. That, after all, is what YOU built YOUR character to do. Let the gish engage in melee (which is especially effective after introducing wraithstrike), let the BFC wizard keep the baddies off you, let the cleric (after he's done pouting in the corner) bolster your defenses and deal with any damage that may get through to you. Your job is to blow stuff up. So do it. Any item you take - any wealth you manipulate from us - will just be a useless trinket hanging from your belt while you blow stuff up. You're quite good at it.

4) To the immature Trust Fund kid - pay attention. Read the rules. You're playing a full-caster wizard - you *need* to know the spells. You took Mage of the Arcane Order. That means you have the ability to make sorcerers cry. *IF* you know the spells. There's a LOT more to the spell list than lightning bolt - and I don't mean fireball too! You can't always buy your answers - sometimes you have to do your own research.
Note: Your character was awesome. The way you played it was embarassing.

5) To another dude - you're a nice enough guy, involved in the game, playing effective and not annoying characters, and volunteer to fill whatever niche is needed. But for the life of me, I can't remember your name. Oh, yeah, that's right... Because you hardly ever show up!

6) To the last player - me. You're awesome. Just keep doing what your doing.

Oh, and to the DM. Good work, putting up with these misfits. I don't know how you run any sort of coherent campaign with these clowns. But please, remind me again how you ended up talking me into running for these guys so you could take a break?

HAH! To the Message Eater - I defeat you! Ctrl-C is a wonderful thing!


We had already defeated one priest using a Silence spell.

We slaughtered some grimlocks using Remove Scent and, yep you guessed it, Silence spell.

We're sneaking through a third lair, not disrupting the things living there... we get to an intersection, the sneak/scout begins examining the area...

And the BSF blows a WHISTLE.


Hey all,

New here, although I've been lurking for a while now.

I enjoy reading these messageboards, and combing through the wealth of information here.

I have need of map for a small, common boathouse, with rudimentary living arrangements.

There's someone my party wants to talk with, but he's in the custody of the town guard. The town guard is hiding him in a boathouse while they interrogate him.

If anyone has plans they've used for one of their adventures, and wouldn't mind someone else using them, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks for your time.


Hi everyone.
I'm looking for a saturday game, something Pathfinder, of course (else I'd be on a different board!).

Looking for other players in their 30s.

I'll run any character needed to fill an "iconic" role, and if all the iconic roles are filled, I can just as easily play a support character of some sort.

I've played Age of Worms, the first half of a campaign that took place in the city Cauldron - I forget the campaign name, and the second half of Savage Tide, and I'm currently running Council of Thieves for a group that meets 1/month. These are all in a buddy's home-brew world, so I am NOT familiar with Paizo's world.

If there's anything open out there, that meets two saturdays/month, start a conversation here...

Thanks.