Kerry Allen's page

Sometimes as a player I grumble a bit about "so they have that rogue thing and that fighter thing as well, isn't that convenient for them..."

And yeah, that's partly because NPCs don't truly get built like PCs. They're just a sort of hollow outer shell that looks like a PC class, with just enough class ability sauce to be convincing stand-ins.

But on the other hand, that's also part of the brilliance. It saves heaps of time, and guarantees that you get to a much more on-target balance result.

One of the tips in the monster design guidelines I particularly like is this one:

GMG p. 68 wrote:

Avoid abilities that do nothing but change the creature’s math, also known as “invisible abilities.” These alter a creature’s statistics in a way that’s invisible to the players, which makes the creature less engaging because the players don’t see it using its abilities in a tangible or evocative way. For example, an ability that allows a creature to use an action to increase its accuracy for the round with no outward sign (or worse, just grants a passive bonus to its accuracy) isn’t that compelling, whereas one that increases its damage by lighting its arrows on fire is noticeable. These both work toward the same goal—dealing more damage this round—but one is far more memorable.

This sounds really reasonable and obvious when you read it like that. But when you start putting it into practice, you notice it's really powerful advice. Compare this to a lot of PF1 monster design that actually had a lot of "internal" creature design just to satisfy getting to required numbers, but that was pretty invisible to players.

This also pairs well with another part of PF2 monster design philosophy: think about how much the monster has to show off. Most monsters aren't going to last more than 5 rounds in combat. Giving a monster more abilities than it can possibly have time to use, is a waste of design time. And it makes the statblock overly complicated for the GM to use. Harder to see what's important....

This is a very interesting commentary, and all of that does indeed make sense.

I suppose my bigger issue is that I might want to be able to layer templates and classes and such onto a base race which has certain definable characteristics. I suppose that said definable characteristics.

This is why I mentioned "reverse engineering rats", (Which appears to have confused some people who thought I didn't know the Bestiary included rats, just as my previous post about purchasing books from the paizo.com caused people to claim that the Pathfinder 2E books purchased from literally the website of the company that makes the game were somehow forgeries that only look like the real thing. Both instances were humorous to me, to be sure. I did call the Gamemastery Guide a Dungeon Masters Guide, because it is PF2Es version thereto, and this clearly scrambled people's eggs. But, it here it would be cruel if I did not shortly exposition regarding "Reverse Engineering" at 5am, because, as a writer, of course I'm going to. In order to Reverse Engineer something, one must have that something in ones hot little hands. For instance, if I said I was going to reverse engineer a flying saucer, one would must needs have a flying saucer in ones possession. One could not reverse engineer a flying saucer without having one. That's a very sad thing, as I would very much like to reverse engineer an immortality machine for my own personal use. However, I cannot, as I lack an immortality machine. Thus, my statement that I intended to "reverse engineer rats" asserted that I knew of the location of said rats, ie, in the Bestiary. And, by now, I have already reverse engineered them! Hurray! So, now Mr. Morgan and Mr. Pete [I am dubious that Mr. Morgan owns his own maritime vessel and is acting officially as the commander of such in this interwebs thread. So, excuse me for excluding his title. I do understand that his name in no way merely implies that he enjoys the mid-range adult beverage of the same name.]...now Mr. Morgan and Mr. Pete can be confident going through life and understanding reverse engineering, and they didn't even need to Google it or ask ChatCPT what it was. I will bring this incident up to Saint Peter upon my future demise as a good deed, and I hope it will be enough to tip the scales! Even if not, it would have been cruelty to have not explained. And, in no way did I merely explain because it's 5am, and I unexpectedly woke up and am actually hoping that after a few minutes of writing that I'll be sleepy again. To say otherwise is pure slander! I did NOT merely chuckle to myself initially and move on at the expression of bafflement! Do not even hint at it!) Where was I? Oh, yes, it was about the rats. The reason I wished to reverse engineer our fictional and furry little RPG-rodent friends was to understand the nature of their race and what types of inherent qualities that involved. Having done it, the only quality that they had in common was their capacity to give you a disease (a rather cruel insinuation if you ask me, but there it is!)

This discovery dovetails perfectly with what you (Ascalaphus &
Lucas Yew) stated. The writers of the Bestiary did precisely what you described, and I have mathematical proof of it. And, that, thankfully, absolves me from the need to reverse engineer anything else from the Bestiary as the Gamergamemasteryingness Guide...(er, the DMG, but they can't call it that because terrible vampiric lawyers...possibly literally - they are WOTC lawyers, after all!...are waiting in the wing to snuff out the competition in the absurd arena of litigation!)

The points you make are good ones. Great ones even. But, my love of being able to transform a halfling into a rogue 12/wizard 6/vampire halfling of whatever level I wished through the application of templates and classes will be greatly missed! And, after all, the game does have, for instance Wizards. If I wanted the party to fight a wizard, would I not just make one? That seemed incongruent. Except, it isn't, because, in Pathfinder, you would, in fact, not make a wizard, you would make a simulacrum of a wizard, a "hollow" version, as you stated. And, having made many wizards doomed to summary slaughter in the past, spellbooks and all, I can certainly appreciate the simplicity.

The background from PF1 was also helpful in this regard. The idea that PCs and NPCs aren't really the same thing is true in terms of what we all see on-screen. Perhaps there is a half-measure that will satisfy both desires at once! And, thankfully, as I have no intention of creating anything new in my initial campaign and am not merely re-writing racial stats, I have some time to consider it. The idea that "yes, I am merely constructing an illusion, and you know very well that's what I'm doing" doesn't sit well with me at the table. Of course that's always what we are doing, but we don't say it, and we do pretend otherwise for the sake of immersion. I shall ponder this deep and hard and to much excess and eventually come up with a solution that I will probably hate but which I'll go along with anyways!

Also, Mr. Morgan seemed concerned for my capacity for writing. And, I do understand why. After all, he probably knows, being the astute young gentleman that he is!, that I have an indoor writing office with a desktop and also an outdoor writing office with a laptop, by the lake (and not by the ocean as I deserve, even though the ocean is very close, but I didn't want to inhabit a flood zone!). But, even Florida isn't in the mid-80s yet! And, thus, he was likely perplexed at how I might undertake such an endeavor in my indoor office with a cold beer or soda instead of outside with a frozen mixed beverage. I understand! This is a concern that I also share. The sun! The lake with the birds! They just won't do with mere low-70s weather! No! Never! But, my friend, worry not! For Summer is Coming! House something-or-other tells me so! And, soon, soon! ...I shall be writing in an environment more suited to one of my talents (In the fervent hope that I also, with the coming of Summer, suddenly develop heretofore unseen talents of some category!) So, so not fret, my friend! Have confidence! Writing will soon be done with a homemade frozen mango margarita in hand and water birds nearby! And, this well-used wooden desk will be denied my ministrations...at least until it's nearly 100 degrees outside and 100% humidity...and I'll die if I don't come in:)

Kerry Allen wrote:

And, I will be creating a schema for monster design that is more flexible. The current monster design isn't bad, per se, depending on what you're doing, but for my purposes, I'm going to need something more narratively consistent.

So, neither of those things sounds true from what you've said so far. What you are looking for isn't a flexible system focused on the narrative. You're looking for rigid but thorough rules to satisfy your instincts as a gamer. The PF2 monster creation rules are extremely flexible because they only really care about the end result that winds up in the narrative-- ie, what your players interact with. Bottom up monster building doesn't actually tend to be very consistent, either, at least as far as creating level appropriate challenges are concerned. Now, maybe you are good enough at game design* to generate a set of rules so robust it can create a consistent play experience across loads of different monster types at all levels of play. But the thing is your players would never know the difference, because they don't see all the extra work you did on the back end. They just see however much punishment the monster dishes out and how much it withstands, plus whatever cool flavorful stuff you add. The work you're doing is solely for yourself. I dabbled with building NPCs as PCs when I first started PF2, but once the building creatures rules were published I realized how much easier those were, not just to build but to actually run.

*To be brutally honest, what you've shared so far has not inspired much faith you're up to this task. Your first post on the forum (where you somehow bought a bunch of books that didn't even seem to be Pathfinder 2e) and things like apparently missing the existence of rats in the bestiary both make it seem like you're someone rushing to execute big ideas while not paying too much attention to detail. Because of its crit system, the PF2 math engine is very fine tuned, and shifting a creature's to hit or AC by a point or...

You are welcome to your opinions, random internet person! :) Genuinely, however, thank you again for confirming what I thought to be the case regarding the rules system! And, I'm glad that you like this game and are invested in it. You wouldn't be so defensive of a game that you didn't enjoy a lot, and that's great! I'm always happy when someone finds something they like exactly the way they like it! There are lots of elements about the system that I really like as well! At any rate, I've got what I need and am unlikely to comment here further, but thanks again, and I wish you all the best!

Thanks so much! Yes, converting the setting from 3.5 to Pathfinder is going to be a lot of work. My Player's Handbook is currently sitting at 700 pages long. Now, a lot of the work doesn't need to be redone. My races typically have about 20 pages, give or so, of text to explain to players the nuances of their societies. And, most of that isn't rules-based. The overwhelming majority is lore, and thankfully, that is universal.

But, as far as the other stuff, it's probably smart, given the absurd state of things legally speaking, and the grasping and crushing nature of copyright once it gets into the hands of a entity determined to destroy all artistic value and boil it down to pure, petty profits in the hands of stockholders that don't care about games and go out on yachts when they want to have fun:D ...but it doesn't matter to me much, because I'll for my setting I'll write the rules for races, classes, spells, feats, etc. I won't be taking anything from Pathfinder other than the base rules, and even some of those will be heavily modified...probably. And, I will be creating a schema for monster design that is more flexible. The current monster design isn't bad, per se, depending on what you're doing, but for my purposes, I'm going to need something more narratively consistent. Ultimately, in a choice between 5E and Pathfinder, Pathfinder wins because there's not much to do with 5E. They've sucked everything useful or interesting out of it for the most part, and the only rules left are Roll a D20, and the highest roll wins. Plus, advantage/disadvantage, which I feel is a net loss for the system. So, for me, 5E can't even be modified to work with Threshold.

However, the above is still super useful as I plan to run a generic Pathfinder campaign in Golarion to become acquainted with the system, broadly speaking. It is remarkably easy to write for it, and I absolutely love how fast combat resolves. It's a good system, and I'm not even sure why it's better than 3.5, but my experience just shows that it is. So, I'm excited to do something really interesting with it!

Got it. Thanks! I thought that this was the case. Thanks so much for confirming!

Greetings all and hope you are having a wonderful day so far!

I've been DMing my own campaign for a while, which was based off of 3.5 D&D, and I am seeking advice on the creation of Monsters, as detailed below.

I am in the process of writing a Pathfinder 2E campaign with an eye to rewrite the Threshold Campaign setting (ie, my campaign setting) into Pathfinder.

For some background, I have already gone through the Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and Gamemastery Guide and did not find precisely what I seek, though I'm aware there are general rules for monster creation in the Gamemastery Guide.

In 3.5, as people may be aware, you have races, templates and classes. The templates and classes can be added to races in order to facilitate the creation of anything. So, if one wanted to make a level 16 Fighter Ogre, one would do that...or create a level 15 Corpse Creature (sentient zombie) Fighter Ogre, that was also possible.

How do I do the same in Pathfinder 2E? Or, will I need to write my own independent rules for this? I realize that each creature gives you 1-3 options for them, but those options may not fit what I wish to do in my game.

Thank you so much for any assistance. Or, if someone has already created a functional version of said rules, this would be great. And, also, a place where you can get the base racial stats for different Pathfinder races that are typically monstrous races, that would be great too, if it exists.

As it stands, it seems I'll have to somehow reserve engineer the things I want to use. Just starting the campaign, it seems that I might have to reverse engineer "Rats" for my first encounter. (First encounters must always be rats. It's tradition!)

Thanks again!

Regards,

Kerry

My question was answered.

I merely thought that the rules would be contained in the Player's Guide, since that is what I'm used to with D&D, but in Pathfinder, the rules are instead contained in a separate book called the Core Rulebook. So, I have now purchased the book I need. I'm aware that all the rules are online, but I greatly prefer hardcopy.

I needlessly purchased over $200 worth of books, but that's ok. They are very pretty and will fit nicely in my collection nonetheless. And, I don't mind helping the Paizo folks. They have mortgages too, after all. So, it's all good:)

Thanks again!

Kerry Allen wrote:

Sorry, I'm calling them by D&D names. That's not exactly what the covers say. 30 years of habit can be difficult to break. But, yes, you are correct. The do indeed say Player's Guide, Bestiary, and Dungeonmastery. I do, also, feel a bit scammed, but I'm getting used to the sensation. The Mechwarrior stuff was far worse! You need half a dozen books to run it, but at least the books do each have something of value in them. I suppose that times are tight:)

There's no "Player's Guide" or "Dungeonmastery" either in Pathfinder. That must be a different game.

You, sir, ought to consider a career in engineering! It should suit you well, I think!

To all else, thank you much for the assistance! I have found and purchased the Core Rulebook. These other books provide additional material, it seems, and while I might not find it of much value, I think I can at least reference it for comparison whilst I'm writing.

Thanks again!

Are you talking about 1st- or 2nd-Edition Pathfinder?

In any case, it sounds like you got scammed when you ordered the books. Pathfinder doesn't have a Player's Handbook or a Dungeon Master's Guide. You're looking for the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.

Also, if you're planning on rewriting your homebrew monsters, I definitely recommend taking a look at both the Bestiary and the monster creation rules in the GameMastery Guide. At least in 2nd Edition, the monster creation rules are so streamlined that you will be converting your homeless over in minutes instead of hours. It will save you a lot of headache. The Bestiary is only really recommended as a pool to pack abilities from and as a basis of comparison to keep things balanced.

But if miles of rules are more to your liking, you may want to stick with 1st Edition. It doesn't play as well in my opinion, but there are a lot of crunchy rules for everything.

Sorry, I'm calling them by D&D names. That's not exactly what the covers say. 30 years of habit can be difficult to break. But, yes, you are correct. The do indeed say Player's Guide, Bestiary, and Dungeonmastery. I do, also, feel a bit scammed, but I'm getting used to the sensation. The Mechwarrior stuff was far worse! You need half a dozen books to run it, but at least the books do each have something of value in them. I suppose that times are tight:)

So curious what will happen...

1. Pathfinder does not have a Player's Handbook or Dungeon Master's Guide. There is one core book with all the rules called the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.
2. All the rules are quite obviously in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.

Sounds great. I shall seek out this Core Rulebook and obtain it:) Thank you for the assistance! What are these other books for, by the way, just out of curiosity?

OK...so, I have a tale of woe to weave, and maybe someone can help with my situation. Or, maybe not. The interwebs are strange environs nowadays. But, I can be hopeful!

I've been running a 3.5 game for over 20 years using my own campaign setting. The PHB for my campaign setting for 3.5 is over 400 pages long-ish, mostly written while on long deployments back prior to me retiring.

Recently, I decided to switch to Pathfinder. Why? Well, 5e. The popularity of 5e has made it difficult to find players over the past year after 20 years of rarely recruiting and never having enough seats. To add to the issues, the players that do show up know nothing of roleplay and expect an easy game where the players are never challenged. They take requests to use their brains as a personal affront. Thus, I gave up and decided that I would run away from D&D and struggle to make camp elsewhere. I shut down my D&D game and decided to rewrite my PHB for Pathfinder, a daunting task to be sure, but I am retired now.

So, I went to this site and bought some rather nice looking books...players handbook, dungeon masters guide...monsters manual...Now, I could really care less about the Monster's Manual as I'm going to be creating my own monsters, not to mention races and classes, because that's what I do. I have my own setting. I write my own stuff.

I've been busy lately. So, the rather pretty looking books (and quite expensive) have sat in their plastic for a few months. I've started up a Mechwarrior game. So it took me a bit to code the character sheet for that. But, I finally have a project in which having a book to read would be nice. So, I decided to finally take them out and start reading them.

I pop open the Player's Handbook. I see some classes and races, which I flip past without interest. After all, I have my own races, and I'll either adopt classes or not or...then, looking at the side of the page, a horrid reality struck me.

There are no rules in this book.

Now, I was aware that the rules were online, but reading books of rules online has about as much interest for me as being clubbed over the head with a herring until I fall into a coma. I wanted to chill and learn the new system so that I can start writing. But...there was literally nothing of value to me in this pretty and expensive book. Literally. Nothing.

I feel like a fool.

I go to my bookshelf and draw out the DMG. The rules are in here, I guess? I mean, maybe the players have to read the rules on their phone or something, but surely I don't have to...

...

...

Oh, no.

I flip through the second pretty book. There's nothing of value in here. Nothing. At all.

Dejected, I return to my bookshelf, stacks of RP books over the years on each shelf, all containing rules for various systems. I sit. I stare at the ground.

I just wanted a book of rules that I can read and then keep near while I run my game.

Does such a thing exist?

Also, what do I do with these things? Keep them as collectors items, I guess. Who knows!

What are they supposed to contain, and what am I supposed to do with them. What I do see looks like gibberish.

Anyways, I'm sure that my neck will ache and my eyes will burn by the time I look up the rules for this thing online. Is there a printed copy of the rules for this game, or is my printer about to get a workout? Is there a .pdf, at least?

*sigh*

Thanks for the help!

Regards,

A DM who maybe won't be anymore because this really is getting to be too much.