Kazandra's page

I think it's perfectly appropriate, but it all depends on the situation.

If the PCs set up camp in a hostile area and don't even bother to have one party member keeping watch, then a DM is being extremely generous if the PCs wake up, or at least wake up with all their gear intact.

In the case of the BBEG, the "Before I kill you, Mr. Bond" trope has been done to death. A smart bad guy would kill the heroes if he had the chance, not leave them shackled, in an easily escapable situation with one sleeping/incompetent guard at the door.

On the other hand, it depends on the personality of the BBEG. If he has some sense of rivalry or respect for the PCs, maybe he wouldn't kill them if he had the chance, hoping they would return the favor at a later date...

He might also be just a sadistic psychopath, and wants to keep them alive and prolong their agony as much as possible.

I try to be lenient with my nastiness towards my PCs, and give them chances on occasion that I shouldn't give them, but no....I don't think that coup de grace should ever be taken off the table for the enemy. In fact, I don't think anything should be taken off the table for the enemy. If the PCs can do something, the BBEG should be able to do it too. The PCs just have to be able to work together and do it better than he does.

I think one problem with guns in Pathfinder or any d20 system is the game mechanics.

Guns don't fit,especially automatic rifles and similar weapons, when you are going by number of attacks instead of rate of fire. It's very hard to bring an automatic weapon into a fantasy game where you are limited to a maximum number of four attacks (without two-weapon fighting or magic qualities).

I think early rifles (muskets) and pistols fit much better than any modern day firearm in a d20 game, so I don't see a problem with those, but automatic rifles and machine guns just don't feel right.

Step Up allows you to move when it's not your turn to follow a 5' stepping person. This is continuing your interrupted action.

Ahhh....duh, me. I don't know why I never noticed that....

Again, thanks for all the input everyone.

I am just going to allow the fighter (or whoever) to continue up to his movement rate, after the readied action, in the scenario I presented. I think that is the best way to resolve the issue.

But, I still think this rule needs to be fixed, or at least clarified.

One reason that gives me pause to just accept that a fighter can keep moving after the interrupt, is the Step Up feat. You see, the wizard is interrupting the ATTACK, not the movement. In my eyes, if anyone can just continue moving after the have started an attack and gets interrupted by a readied 5 ft. Step, then there would be no need at all for the Step Up feat.

This is why I think this is still a overlooked flaw in the game mechanics. It seems like the only fix is a house rule.

rpg.net mods are going to shut this thread down, because it's gotten completely out of hand. Seriously, they think this thread has actually gone too far.....

Helpless, living target + coup de grace and a failed save =

Sweet death.

I know...technically it's an auto critical followed by a save that if failed equates to death, so it's not technically "damage", but even if the target has 1000 hit points, it still dies from the failed save.

A JUDO-Christian God?

It reminds me of the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, and makes me think he is in a grapple with several different opponents at once....and winning. xD

Nooooo! Don't let the poor widdy puppy fight the ogre!

A wolf companion is great for tracking and foraging, and can help you get that rabbit when your are alone and starving in the wilds. Don't make him fight!

Imbicatus wrote:

I've heard a party of Seven Samurai is pretty neat, but Seven Gunslingers would be magnificent.

At some point the seven gunslingers should come across the seven samurai, just so the samurai could call them a poor mans remake.

Ahh NICE! I see what you did there.

(For those not in the know, Akira Kurosawa made the movie Seven Samurai, and it was remade as The Magnificent Seven in the states)

If you are talking about the animate dead spell, it only animates the dead as skeletons or zombies. The creature(s) do not retain any of the abilities they had in life, nor do they retain their HD. They become standard zombies or skeletons with a number of HD based on size alone.

If I were going to add spells to a class's list that doesn't have them, I would make it a rule that it would have to be one level higher than any class would normally be able to learn the spell.

In other words:

Fireball is listed as a "sorcerer/wizard 3" spell. I would make it a 4th level bard spell if one of my players wanted to be able to cast it. This also means that any 6th level spells would be out of reach for the bard class.

Kazandra wrote:

I don't think you have to worry too much about a wizard or a sorcerer using it unless they have a ring of freedom of movement.

So only the single most common magic ring at mid to high levels if you are a caster, or frankly, anyone else given how monster CMB outpaces most peoples CMD. Pretty much just Teleport Specialists and certain Clerics dont need it.

If your DM allows a 40,000 gp ring to be a common item, then he or she isn't doing a good job of keeping things balanced.

You guys are painting a picture like a wizard or sorcerer can just do anything they want with no fear of failure or repercussion. And let's not forget how long it actually takes a wizard or sorcerer to reach the level where they can perform the kind of amazing feats people are mentioning.

Seriously, out of all the combat encounters I've run, wizards and sorcerers have indeed shined at high level, but kind of stand there twiddling their thumbs at low level after they cast a couple of spells.

Think about your own combat encounters, when your party ran into a group of enemies with an obvious spell-caster among them... Your party's archer ALWAYS (if they are smart) readies an attack on the spell-caster for when "he attempts to cast a spell". Spells are not always automatic in combat encounters unless there is a contingency or you cast them in advance of the combat encounter, and even then the more potent spells only last for a number of rounds, not minutes or hours, so they would fizzle out before a potential combat encounter began.

I just haven't had the same experience where a wizard or sorcerer dominates every combat encounter as people here are suggesting. It simply doesn't happen until your PCs reach high levels in your campaign, and even then I fail to see how other character classes would feel left out in their roles. If that's the case, the DM is designing the encounters poorly.

Kazandra wrote:

Icyshadow wrote:

Ilja wrote:

Its interesting, because while its claimed martials should expect to play some "super-powered up video game" character, casters seem more powerful in pathfinder than any computer RPG or action game I can think of. Much more so than the D&D based games' casters.

There's a reason why some people call Pathfinder the Caster Edition.

The reason is that they haven't played D&D 3rd edition.

List of fighter abilities in D&D3:

Weapon Specialization.

Bonus martial feats.

Pathfinder made martial characters MUCH more powerful than they once were.

Power Attack and Combat Maneuver Feats got nerfed. I wouldn't say that martials got more powerful.

As an example, Improved Trip gave +4 to Trip attempts as well as a Free Action melee attack back in 3.5e, you know.

Weapon and armor mastery don't make up for that?

Also, you have to take into account that even though power attacks got nerfed slightly, so did damage reduction ratings of many of the more powerful creatures. Not to mention there are many more options/feats available to martial classes now than there were in D&D3. Granted, it's a compilation of many supplemental books from D&D3, but you don't have to buy sixteen 40 dollar books or download multiple PDFs to see them.

Good points Ilja, but still...

I see it as Martials progress from Gimli to Gimli in terms of what kind of attacks they can do, but eventually they get the ability to hit Balrog and overcome his damage reduction, and lop off 8 surrounding orcs heads in a single strike.

Gimli also never had a vorpal sword.

The "high magic" in Pathfinder is also utilized by martial characters in the gear they use, weapons they hold and armor they wear.

Ilja wrote:

Its interesting, because while its claimed martials should expect to play some "super-powered up video game" character, casters seem more powerful in pathfinder than any computer RPG or action game I can think of. Much more so than the D&D based games' casters.

There's a reason why some people call Pathfinder the Caster Edition.

The reason is that they haven't played D&D 3rd edition.

List of fighter abilities in D&D3:

Weapon Specialization.

Bonus martial feats.

Pathfinder made martial characters MUCH more powerful than they once were.

Kazandra wrote:

I don't think so. In Pathfinder, you are limited by spells per day. You do not have a regenerating magicka bar that refills and allows you to cast your most powerful spells over and over again.

Martials are limited by hit points. You can prepare your most powerful spell multiple times (and often this is what people will do)

But, everyone is limited by hit points. And as for preparing your most powerful spells multiple times, not too many people will prepare even 3 sleep or color spray spells in their 1st level slot. If you are talking about re-preparing your spells after you cast them already, you need 8 hours of sleep to do so.

Its interesting, because while its claimed martials should expect to play some "super-powered up video game" character, casters seem more powerful in pathfinder than any computer RPG or action game i can think of. Much more so than the D&D based games' casters.

I don't think so. In Pathfinder, you are limited by spells per day. You do not have a regenerating magicka bar that refills and allows you to cast your most powerful spells over and over again.

Kazandra wrote:

Well, sleep and color spray are still non-lethal spells. It's not as if you are slain outright. A 1st level fighter can kill several CR1/2-CR1 creatures in one round, with one good attack. A wizard can put them to sleep. I fail to see how this is problematic for balance issues.

As far as "you can't grapple a creature as long as they are flying/displaced/force bubbled...etc" (ignoring the invisible status because it simply isn't true as long as the location is guessed), you are talking about specific situations where a martial character could not grab the spell-caster. The spell-caster would almost have to have some precognitive ability in order to stop a martial character from grappling him/her. If the martial character won initiative, then the status effects you describe would already have to be in place for the grapple to fail. I counter with the fact that unless the caster has one of these spells already in effect, the chances of him/her shaking a grapple from a martial character of the same level is very, very low.

Everyone has to remember that Pathfinder and D&D are rpgs where each character is supposed to play a specific role. Fighters and barbarians are melee tanks. That doesn't mean they should also be immune to magical attacks or suped-up to video game levels of power. It would be the same thing if you suddenly made rules to where a spell-caster could buy feats that gave him/her more HPs or higher attack bonuses and extra attacks, so they could perform melee combat better.

I'm sorry but I completely disagree that martial characters are underpowered.

Right, but sleeping/blinded/stunned enemies can't fight back in any effective manner and can be slaughtered more or less at the party's leisure. If either of those spells work on the monster or a good chunk of a group, the encounter is basically over. Sleep can easily knock out a whole encounter of goblins or other low-level monsters, and color spray has a good chance of crippling single monsters or good chunks of a...

A first level wizard can cast color spray or sleep three times per day, at most. Plus, they can't wear armor and can't use martial weapons without certain feats that would be ill-advised to purchase at 1st level.

Using sleep or color spray can be effective, but many of you are failing to see that this is basically one of the only things a wizard can do at first level in a combat encounter to be as effective as martial characters....

Unfortunately for your argument Pathfinder is not a MMORPG, and thus the role of "tank" is largely meaningless. There is no way to hold "hate" (other then Come and Get Me) or "control the battlefield (well casters can, martials... not so much...)

While yes, Sleep and Color Spray are non-lethal in the short term, in the long term they render foes very dead to even the most ill-coordinated commoner. And "long term here means.... within 12 seconds..."

Grappling a spellcaster... surely you aren't serious. Freedom of movement is a thing you know. So if "precognitive ability" means "casts a a spell that lasts 10 min/level and will be up the whole adventure" yes they need precognitive ability.

Don't worry though, developing system mastery takes time so it's understandable to miss a few of these things.

Exactly the point I was making. this isn't a MMORPG. People should not expect to play with a character like Zeus. This isn't a video game where everyone gets to unlock every ability they want.

How many people seriously use Freedom of Movement every time they get the chance, and speaking of which.... Has anyone even looked at Freedom of Movement in a while? It can't be used by wizards or sorcerers..... I don't think you have to worry too much about a wizard or a sorcerer using it unless they have a ring of freedom of movement.

Kazandra wrote:

I don't really get where all this "martial characters aren't good enough" crap comes from.

To me spell-casters, especially arcane ones, aren't overly powerful until they reach somewhere around level 11 or 12. That's when they start getting into the really good spells imo.

Spell-casters have to wait until a specific situation presents itself to use their spells as well.

They have to work their way up in level before they really start to shine. A fighter, compared to wizards and sorcerers, shines from 1st level to high-mid level. After that, the wizard or sorcerer start to surpass the fighter in what they can do in certain situations, but they still never really outshine fighters in pure combat (aside from being able to cast a handful of high level spells...but then they have blown their wad).

To me, one thing a warrior class character can always do to a wizard or sorcerer is grapple them. Grappling a spell-caster is a sure-fire way to achieve victory. This is just one example of the weaknesses spell-casting classes have. They don't have the durability of warriors, can't fight in melee, suffer terribly from being grappled, etc.

I think the character classes are balanced enough as it is. Taking away weaknesses will only lead to taking away weaknesses of other classes as well.

This is a myth. Casters from the getgo get an encounter ender in the form of Color Spray and Sleep. The DC at 1st level mind you can be as high as DC 18 with a good Charisma.

Grappling doesn't work if you can't touch them if they're flying/displaced/invisible/force bubbled/you're blocked by a wall of force. Grapple also doesn't work period when theres effects like Freedom of Movement that are auto success against it. Freedom of Movement is very common past 7th level.

You have to ask your Arcane Casters not to break your game open like the fragile egg it is. They're one of the few classes where any amount of clever building can smash open your game and let them take it...

Well, sleep and color spray are still non-lethal spells. It's not as if you are slain outright. A 1st level fighter can kill several CR1/2-CR1 creatures in one round, with one good attack. A wizard can put them to sleep. I fail to see how this is problematic for balance issues.

As far as "you can't grapple a creature as long as they are flying/displaced/force bubbled...etc" (ignoring the invisible status because it simply isn't true as long as the location is guessed), you are talking about specific situations where a martial character could not grab the spell-caster. The spell-caster would almost have to have some precognitive ability in order to stop a martial character from grappling him/her. If the martial character won initiative, then the status effects you describe would already have to be in place for the grapple to fail. I counter with the fact that unless the caster has one of these spells already in effect, the chances of him/her shaking a grapple from a martial character of the same level is very, very low.

Everyone has to remember that Pathfinder and D&D are rpgs where each character is supposed to play a specific role. Fighters and barbarians are melee tanks. That doesn't mean they should also be immune to magical attacks or suped-up to video game levels of power. It would be the same thing if you suddenly made rules to where a spell-caster could buy feats that gave him/her more HPs or higher attack bonuses and extra attacks, so they could perform melee combat better.

I'm sorry but I completely disagree that martial characters are underpowered.

I don't really get where all this "martial characters aren't good enough" crap comes from.

To me spell-casters, especially arcane ones, aren't overly powerful until they reach somewhere around level 11 or 12. That's when they start getting into the really good spells imo.

Spell-casters have to wait until a specific situation presents itself to use their spells as well.

They have to work their way up in level before they really start to shine. A fighter, compared to wizards and sorcerers, shines from 1st level to high-mid level. After that, the wizard or sorcerer start to surpass the fighter in what they can do in certain situations, but they still never really outshine fighters in pure combat (aside from being able to cast a handful of high level spells...but then they have blown their wad).

To me, one thing a warrior class character can always do to a wizard or sorcerer is grapple them. Grappling a spell-caster is a sure-fire way to achieve victory. This is just one example of the weaknesses spell-casting classes have. They don't have the durability of warriors, can't fight in melee, suffer terribly from being grappled, etc.

I think the character classes are balanced enough as it is. Taking away weaknesses will only lead to taking away weaknesses of other classes as well.

shadowqueenMedea wrote:

Now I'm running into the following problem scenario:

It's a one-on-one fight. One of the characters is a fighter or other warrior type, without the Step Up feat (he/she could be of any class though). The other is a spell-caster. The spell-caster wins initiative and readies his/her action, waits for the fighter to move up to attack (or even charge), then uses his/her action to take a 5-foot step away, while casting a spell. BOOM spell goes off in the fighter's face, without consequence to the spell-caster. Rinse and repeat every round. The wizard is never even touched in a one-on-one fight. Does anyone else see an overlooked exploit here, or is it just me?

Have you overlooked the fact that the fighter being ONLY five foot away, if he survives is going be full attacking the caster on his turn? A fighter will generally destroy a wizard whose close to him in level.

Keep in mind the environment as well. In a typical dungeon fight, your wizard is going wind up either against a wall or in a spot where he can't back up any more.

Also keep in mind your allies. a rogue who's doing his job can acrobat himself into a flank. (are you really going to worry about melee AOO's from a wizard?) and go the stabbity stabbity route. If there is no rogue, the average party will pretty much gang up on the caster first even before other creatures, because that's smart tactics.

The moral of the story is.... you're not expected to face your challenges alone. Whatever class you are, you're a member of a party, and you succeed or fail together.

Actually, the fighter has already acted (chose to move and attack) in my scenario, so he couldn't have been able to perform a full attack action. He had to move up to the wizard to attack, then the wizard interrupted the fighter's action with his own readied action.

I also realize that the 5 foot step trick would be much harder to pull off in combat scenarios with parties involved. But you would still run into the one-on-one fight scenarios in a typical adventure as well, especially in cases where you only have two or three players and the party splits up to cover more ground. Cliche, I know, but that is why I chose this specific example.

1) Traps, traps and more traps.

2) The goblin tribe's shaman performed a dark ritual on the night before. To the heroic party's surprise, all the goblins have had their movement speed doubled.

3) Goblin suicide bombers. When used in combination with number two, things could get pretty scary.

One thing that comes to mind for me is aimed shots. An aimed shot could negate any amount of DR from armor if it succeeds.

Full plate armor doesn't do you much good if you forget to put on your helmet....:P

Thanks to everyone for helping. I think I will just take everyone's advice and allow the fighter (or whoever) to continue his/her movement after the readied action. Seems like the only real fix.

First of all, I don't think that Paizo was specific enough with their rules for the 5-foot Step action on pg.189 of the Core rulebook. It says:

"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round."

They never specifically stated you could only do it on your turn. That's what was throwing me off at first. Then, I realized it was not listed under Immediate Actions, so I figured that you would have to perform a 5-foot step on your turn only.

Now I'm running into the following problem scenario:

It's a one-on-one fight. One of the characters is a fighter or other warrior type, without the Step Up feat (he/she could be of any class though). The other is a spell-caster. The spell-caster wins initiative and readies his/her action, waits for the fighter to move up to attack (or even charge), then uses his/her action to take a 5-foot step away, while casting a spell. BOOM spell goes off in the fighter's face, without consequence to the spell-caster. Rinse and repeat every round. The wizard is never even touched in a one-on-one fight. Does anyone else see an overlooked exploit here, or is it just me?

I realize that the Step Up feat could negate this, which would make it an automatic purchase at low-level for warrior types, but take a look at the Bestiary. How many melee-tank monsters have the Step Up feat? I could see spell-caster players using this little trick all day against just about any opponent without ranged weapons, unless I'm wrong somewhere in my interpretation of these rules.

The only other thing I can think of to do against this, is move toward your opponent and Ready an action declaring to "attack if the target attempts a 5-foot step", because then, your action would trigger immediately BEFORE the 5-foot step action. But then, why would you use a normal attack action against a spell-caster, that is readying and hasn't moved, ever again?

I'm perplexed....

One glaring problem with DMa's interpretation:

Paladins have the ability to detect evil. If the paladin detects no evil and continues to kill these "monsters" it might be problematic for him/her.

If you ever played Skyrim, there is a series of novels called "The Lusty Argonian Maid". Give it a read if you are interested. You can find it in several places online. It's pretty funny.

Argonians are a race of lizard people in Skyrim. It would be easy enough to substitute "Argonian" with any humanoid race in Pathfinder.

shadowqueenMedea wrote:

I always looked at it like this:

The demon princes and archdevils need the daemons, and the daemons need the demons and devils. The demons and devils utilize the daemons neutral nature, hiring them as mercenaries to fight the other side. They also need them as backup in case the celestials ever plan a mass incursion into the hells. Tatarus (the realm/plane of daemons) is also used as a staging point for the demons and devils for massive wars against each other. It is more convenient for now, that Tartarus stays in neutral hands. Neither the demons nor the devils want the plane to fall into the hands of the other. The daemons know this fact, and exploit it to their own advantage.

I think you mistake PF's daemons for dnd 3.5's daemons. There is no demon vs devil war here and the plane the daemons live on is called Abaddon, not Tartarus.

Thanks for clearing that up. I had no idea they changed the mythos like that. I just switched to Pathfinder a couple months ago, so I'm not up on all the lore yet. Pathfinder has been much better than D&D so far, imo.

I want a bestiary that includes all of the powerful beings in the outer planes. Archdevils, demon princes, archangels, etc....

Bestiary 4 gave us a taste of this, but I want to see them all.

Not that I would use them in an adventure against the players, I just have always had a fascination with these kinds of creatures. The Book of Vile Darkness was an excellent product in D&D 3rd edition, and I would really like to see it's equivalent in Pathfinder.

I always looked at it like this:

The demon princes and archdevils need the daemons, and the daemons need the demons and devils. The demons and devils utilize the daemons neutral nature, hiring them as mercenaries to fight the other side. They also need them as backup in case the celestials ever plan a mass incursion into the hells. Tatarus (the realm/plane of daemons) is also used as a staging point for the demons and devils for massive wars against each other. It is more convenient for now, that Tartarus stays in neutral hands. Neither the demons nor the devils want the plane to fall into the hands of the other. The daemons know this fact, and exploit it to their own advantage.