KarmicPlaneswalker's page

Your example is correct. However, your assumption is incorrect. Sorcerers simply add the bloodline spells to their pool of spells known, so at level 12 the sorcerer knows 25 spells (not counting 9 cantrips); 5 are the bloodline spells fixed by bloodline, and the other 20 are chosen from sorcerer spell list. The bloodline spells are NOT like the bonus spell slots of specialist wizards or cleric domains.
Sorcerer spells known can be increased by bloodline adding spells, rings or pages of spell knowledge, the expanded arcana feat, or FCB.

That confirmed a few things for me. Thank you for the clarification.

One of the biggest advantages the Sorcerer has over the Arcanist is spell slots. The Arcanist is really tight on spell slots, and is only made even tighter by its reliance on Consume Spells to fuel its hunger for reservoir. A 6th level Arcanist with 22 Intelligence has 13 spell slots total, while the Sorcerer with 22 Charisma has 19 spell slots.

I'm assuming some of those slots are reserved for bloodline spells?

I'm still unpacking how the sorcerer's spells per day work vs their spells known.

The books say a sorcerer's spells known are not affected by their charisma.

Example: At level 12, sorcerers have a single 6th level spell they know, and have enough spell slots they can use it three times (before modifiers), correct?

Readers can not change a reference into a directive.
Using that terminology restricts interpretation to explicit print.

The reference is the directive, otherwise it would not have been included in the description of said ability. Once again, RAW vs RAI.

A strict RAW read of the ability includes "(see page 16)." This includes everything provided by the referenced material it points readers to examine; unless specifically noted. Nothing in RAW states you ignore the 4x cost to make the tattoo. And it will remain as such until you or anyone else present RAW material showing otherwise (which you cannot).

Game mechanics and subsystems do not cease to exist simply because they are not referenced at all times. There are dozens of examples where certain abilities or spells appear to create a variety of exemption effects based purely on text, only to neglect the mention of how mechanic X, Y or Z interact with the effect. Those must then be factored and cause a modification to the intended result. That task falls to the GM to determine.

These are also Extraordinary (Ex) features.

The Create Spell Tattoo ability is a Supernatural (Su) ability. It exists apart from Inscribe Magic Tattoo; it does not require the Inscribe Magic Tattoo feat, a craft check, or payment, because the ability doesn't say it does. RAW (ignoring PFS clarification) it doesn't even require expending the spell slot.

The extraordinary and supernatural distinction is wholly irrelevant to the actual mechanics of the ability in question. Being able to rapidly produce mundane items as opposed to being able to fast-track a magic one. Both are governed by a gameplay subsystem and are subject to the rules of said procedure.

As Toshy noted, Herbalism flat out says the items it creates are free of charge. No such line exists for the archetype ver. of Create Spell Tattoo. Meaning the base feat's 4x cost would still apply by RAW. As far as I can tell, the increase in uses per day also correlates and scales with WBL; in order to offset the higher cost of having a wearable scroll and make use of the accelerated creation time.

Another key aspect of this ability that informs us that we are not actually using the magic item creation rules (or by extension those costs) is that a tattooed sorcerer can do this twice a day at level 11 and thrice at level 15. Magic Item Creation RAW: "Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day."

By RAW, it is still technically magic item creation and directly references the Create Spell Tattoo feat from the same book, meaning crafting checks and costs are still included (these mechanics do not magically stop existing or applying unless directly noted in the ability). However, like with Druidic Herbalism, this is a class feature that creates a specific exemption from the generic rules of "one magic item per day." Similar items, feats, etc. exist that permit exemptions as well.

RAI, this may well have been one of the many oversights on the part of the developers, but that is up to each table to decide for themselves.

And while I (by all means) believe that this is RAI, it is not RAW. As we won't get any official clarification on that, it's up to every GM to decide.

Agreed.

So you don't actually have an explanation from RAW and are simply using your personal conjecture to force conformity? Got it. Your "contribution" is noted.

I asked for a simple explanation on WHY spell tattoos get to ignore gold cost, while things like Swift Alchemy do not, and you are unable to answer.

Due to your desire for a pedantic explanation further explanation beyond RAW text is not necessary. The text is what it is. Simply do what RAW explicitly directs.

There's nothing "pedantic" about it. RAW says spell tattoos cost 4x market price, so that's what we do.

Sorceror-Tattooed Sor archetype Create Spell Tattoo(Su) takes a standard action as a touch and has no gp cost although it does expend a spell slot.

Okay, please cite a source for this and explain how and why it is different from the alchemist's Swift Alchemy, or other class features that perform similar functions, but still require you to spend gold.

RAW-only.

An advisory Note from PFS exists on the ability on the AoN website. "A tattooed sorcerer may only use her create spell tattoo power during days spent in play (i.e. not between scenarios)."

that's RAW.

We're not playing sanctioned PFS.

swift alchemy doesn't reduce cost to create anything, just lowers the amount of time it takes.

as for the spell tattoo, im sure the intent is that it doesn't cost anything since it can also just go away if you make another one. it also doesn't give them the ability to make normal spell tattoos since they don't have the feat. thats what the line "She can maintain one spell tattoo created by this ability at a time—if she uses this ability again, the previous spell tattoo she created fades away. Spell tattoos she creates with Inscribe Magic Tattoo do not count against this limit." infers to me anyway

The sorcerer's archetype ability is identical to the standard version, and directly references it in the description; only noting there is a limit to how many this class feature can produce per day and maintain at any given time. These restrictions are not present on the standard feat.

The class feature of the tattooed sorcerer emulates a portion of the standard. The key takeaway is, the very last line of the regular feat stating, "A spell tattoo has a market price four times as much as an equivalent scroll."

Is the class feature version free? Or is it still subject to the increased pricing? Does it function like the alchemist's Swift Alchemy, in that you still must pay all relevant costs, but you expedite the process down to a standard action?

This is the crux of what I am asking.

From the RAW, it appears the Spell Tattoo class feature is identical to the alchemist's Swift Alchemy, in that it does NOT ignore costs, but is only used to minimize crafting time. All signs point to that being the case, but I am asking for additional insight to be certain.

Doesn't answer my question at all.

I am not looking for an overview of what the various abilities do or how they function. I am specifically asking if class features like the ones referenced above, ignore general game mechanics that require pricing and material costs for the items they are trying to make.

From a strict RAW reading, they do not, and PCs must still pay all relative costs before utilizing the abilities. Otherwise, adjustments to the pricing would be mentioned in each description. But I am asking for clarification to verify that.

It is my understanding that these features exist purely to mitigate craft times, but gold is still expended in the process.

In a recent session at our table, the topic of item creation came up again and it was pointed out that certain classes possess features that allow them to emulate item creation feats with varying degrees of effectiveness.

Alchemists receive Swift Alchemy at 3rd level. Tattooed sorcerers receive Create Spell Tattoo at 7th level, etc.

While many of these point out they cannot replicate spells that need costly material components (or consume them on use), by RAW, do these class features completely ignore the base game mechanics that require price and material costs? Or are they still subject to those restrictions like the abilities they are emulating?

Does an alchemist not have to pay to make a flask of acid?
Can a tattooed sorcerer bypass needing to pay 4x the scroll cost when they create a spell tattoo?

Or are these abilities designed solely to save time, by skipping conventional crafting durations and reduce them to a standard action for the sake of expediency?

fear RAW fear creates [shaken < frightened < panicked] conditions.

Apologies. Those were the ones I was looking for.

Lesser Fear can be directly affected(suppressed) by 0-2nd level spells, Greater Fear 3rd+ or an ability at 6th level or better. That's a broad brush to make Greater Fear more serious. MetaMag Heighten spell gains a bit more usage.

Is this RAW? Or would it be DM-fiat?

Spells like Remove Fear and Unbreakable Heart suppress fear effects for their duration. Does it matter if said effects were caused by non-magical means, items, supernatural abilities, etc?

Also, would the level of fear matter? Or do the remedy spells not care, as long as whatever they're curing has the fear descriptor?

There's no use in the rest of us engaging further in this thread. This is the Original Poster's argument:

The item creation rules tell you how to price an item when you are creating a brand new item, but nowhere in those rules does it explicitly and exactingly say "if you raise the caster level of an existing item, the price should raise accordingly." Therefore costing rules don't apply to published items! Therefore I can make an existing item at any caster level without changing the price, and get the benefits of that higher level for free.

I asked a legitimate question and received nothing but your fatuous condescension as a response to my inquiry. I have absolutely no issue with getting a proper answer that breaks down and explains in full the details for pricing preexisting magic items (which as a reminder, someone else already noted there are MULTIPLE stock items that are not properly matched to the formula you so desperately want to hold up as gospel).

We all know this is wrong, but the OP desperately wants it to be true so he's not going to be swayed by reason.

And once again you'd be wrong. All I am looking to do is avoid confusion and misuse of a particular game aspect. So if you have a valid answer and can point to where exactly such details are laid out, I will gladly read and incorporate them into my table's future sessions.

But given how quickly you jumped to insults, it's almost a given you cannot provide said source. So Mr. Mind Reader, I will patiently await your citation.

Update: Nothing I've found (on this site or others) indicate changing the CL of stock items alters the price in any capacity. Only its overall effectiveness changes, as well as any instance where certain items produce spells that need to overcome spell resistance. The formula guide is only used when accounting for crafting a custom item from scratch. Regardless of whether the default signet is crafted at CL5 or CL20, its price remains the same.

"For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers"

Everyone always cites the pearl example when referencing an item's CL, but I must be misunderstanding the language of how that pertains to the inquiry.

Same with the Magic Item creation link, which I was told only pertains to custom-made magic items, not preexisting ones.

This is a multi-part question, as I'm still learning the ins & outs on crafting to help my party.

If you craft a magical item and increase its caster level, does this also increase the cost from the listed price? If so, by how much? If it is a magical item that casts a spell, does raising the CL increase the spell's DC and/or duration?

Example A (Benefits):
If you craft a Profane Seal Signet at caster level 12, does this gives it the full benefit of the Wrath spell and the Improved Critical feat?

If crafting at CL12, does this increase the Signet's price? Or will it remain a constant 1,500gp?

Example B (Duration):
A Ring of Invisibility starts at CL3. If you crafted it at CL10, would that mean each use of the ring's Invisibilty lasts for 10 minutes? As opposed to 3 minutes from the base ring at CL3?

And again, does raising the item's level increase the price? Or will it remain 10,000gp to craft?

Example C (Save DC & Damage):
If you craft a pair of Vampiric Gloves at CL20, does the DC to resist its Bleed spell increase? Also, does its Vampiric Touch apply the full 10d8 damage from being at max level?

Does raising the item's caster level increase its price? Or is it always 9,000gp?

For spells with instantaneous duration such as Stone Discus and Iron Stake, is it possible to retrieve the conjured projectiles and reuse them with the same effect as their initial casting?

Or are these meant to be one-and-done spells that create lingering items after their first use?