Kaighal's page

That's the plan indeed, but it is theorical.

Butterfly Sting looks good but since I'll only have 2 PC companions, and none of them will play a hard hitter so the feat would probably be wasted. Also, it requires Combat Expertise so, since I delayed that to "beyond the end of the campaign", it would probably be picked way too late anyway.

Thanks for the Magus suggestion, I like the idea and will probably use it if I get to play a higher-level character that doesn't begin at level 1 (and is an Elf, preferably, to keep the Spire Defender archetype).

Any opinion about the other questions in my previous post ? :$

In my opinion, whether or not an Unchained Rogue TWF build is better than a 2-handed build depends primarily on whether Double Slice works with Dex to damage.

I believe it will be, with our Game Master. ;)

A little extra questions :

- Is Piranha Strike worth it, with such a high total attack bonus ?

- Is the Hurler barbarian archetype more interesting than the Titan Mauler ? I don't realize how often I will be throwing daggers in a typical game session, and how often range would be an issue.

- Would it be interesting to pick a Half Orc instead, to get 5th Bite attack at -5 (= 1 more Sneak Attack) instead of the small + Titan Mauler attack bonuses ?

- For fun, I quickly made a Half Orc Slayer with about the same feats except he's using STR and a Greatsword (I can post the details if needed), he ends up with less attacks and attack bonuses, but his attacks deal a LOT more damage (2d6 +15) and almost get as much sneak-attack potential (2d6 instead of 2d8). He can even get that Bite which gives him almost as many attacks as the Halfling TWF Knifemaster rogue...
So are the extra attacks and attack bonuses of the Halfling TWF Knifemaster rogue worth it ?

Press to the Wall is a great feat for Rogues if you're allowed to use material from splatbooks.

They are allowed and, yes, that feat is good too but with the prerequisite, it might be too "expensive"...

... Unless you suggest that I drop TWF ?

add scout archtype as well, learn spring attack.

every move of 10' is auto flat footed = sneak.

learn charging thrower = "chrage" 10' and throw a dagger = sneak.

you are only helpess Vs elementals and oozes (the later are the bane of all melee) - so use magic device and a decent wand or staff of fire are in order.

Spring Attack + Mobility (its prerequisite) + Charging Hurler + Point-Blank Shot (its prerequisite) = 4 extra feats, again, I don't see how I could learn all of these AND the TWF feats, unless I switch to human and take a lot more Fighter levels (which would remove Sneak Attac dice and advanced rogue talents).

also, i love hide in plain sight , if you take spring attack you already quiify for shadow dancer - 1 level is amazing for a rogue. espscially a small one.

with shadow armor, boots of springting (move 40) you easy dash in, the movement trigger the scout free sneak, than move out into nothingness.

I see your point, I used to love Shadowdancer and Hide in Plain Sight in Neverwinter Nights, it was really really good.

But once again, it doesn't seem to work with TWF.

It really feels like TWF ends up being a "bad" (as in, not optimised) idea for a Rogue, are one-handed builds with movement + 1 attack (with SA) per round more efficient, or perhaps more practical in typical Pathfinder game sessions ?

Double-post, my apologies.

For the roleplay aspect, I could see something like the main character from the movie Drive, a calm guy that can become super-violent when "triggered" and with a strong liking / gift for daggers instead of cars... Maybe some childhood trauma involving Giants (=> explains titan mauler). He could also whisper to his daggers sometimes, without revealing whether he is praying to his goddess or just crazy (possibly both). Alignment would be Chaotic Neutral, I guess.

Stat-wise, I would do this instead of what I had initially planned :

STR : 12 - 2 = 10
DEX : 17 + 2 = 19
CON : 14 + 0 = 14 (=> 1 more round of rage & +1 hp per level)
INT : 14 + 0 = 14
WIS : 12 + 0 = 12 (=> better will save)
CHA : 8 + 2 = 10 (no feint => Bluff no longer needed)
(Cost : 25)

If I get a third trait, I was considering Indomitable Faith (which goes well with the background) to get an extra +1 to Willpower saves. Combined with the WIS bonus, I would get as much as Iron Will !

I made an updated version of the first 7 levels.

I'm still hesitating for the level 4-6 feats, and the final choice at 7. What would you guys do and why ?

Also, should I consider a 2nd level of Barbarian (and no archetype) to get Uncanny Dodge, and get the Scout archetype for Rogue to get the optional guaranteed Sneak Attack with a Charge ?

Here's how it looks so far :

*****

Level 1 : Unchained Rogue 1 BAB +0
Finesse training, sneak attack +1d8
char feat : two-weapon fighting
Favored class : "pseudo" critical focus +0.5 (dagger)
hp=1d8+1

Level 2 : rogue 2 BAB +1
Hidden blade +1, Evasion, rogue talent : Weapon training = Weapon Focus : dagger
Favored class : "pseudo" critical focus +1 (dagger)
hp=2d8+2

Level 3 : rogue 3 BAB +2
Blade sense +1, finesse training (dagger), sneak attack +2d8
char feat : Deific Obedience Pharasma
Favored class : "pseudo" critical focus +1.5 (dagger)
hp=3d8+3

Level 4 : rogue 4 BAB +3
Hidden blade +2, Debilitating injury, uncanny dodge [OR scout's charge], rogue talent : Combat Trick = Quick Draw [OR Double Slice]
Favored class : "pseudo" critical focus +2 (dagger)
hp=4d8+4 DEX+1=20

Level 5 : unchained barbarian 1 (titan mauler) BAB +4
Big Game Hunter (ex)
char feat : Extra Rage
hp=4d8+1d12+5

Level 6 : fighter 1 (weapon master : dagger) BAB +5
Bonus feat : Double Slice [OR Quick Draw]
hp=4d8+1d12+1d10+6

Level 7 : fighter 2 BAB +6/+1
Weapon guard +1, Bonus feat : Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
char feat : Improved Initiative [OR Iron Will] [OR Dodge]
hp=4d8+1d12+2d10+7

*****

Final main Attack Bonus : +6 (BAB) +5 (dex) -2 (TWF) +1 (Small) +1 (Weapon Focus) +2 (Pharasma) +2 (rage) +1 (big game hunter) = +16

Final attacks : +16 / +16 / +11 / +11 [-1 against Small enemies]

Final dagger damage : 1d3 +5 (dex => finesse training) +1 (river rat) +2 (rage) + 2d8 (sneak attack) [+injury] = 1d3 +8 +2d8 [+injury] (min : 9 / max : 27)

Final naked AC : 10 (natural) +5 (dex) +1 (small) +1 (big game hunter) -2 (rage) = 15 [+1 if Dodge] [-1 against Small enemies]

Final Initiative : 1d20 +5 (dex) +2 (reactive) = 1d20 +7 [+4 if improved initiative]

Final HP : 4d8+1d12+2d10+7 (min : 14 / max : 71)

- Improved Critical is not that great for rogues, because sneak attack dice aren't multiplied on a crit, and most light weapons are only 1d4 or 1d6 with x2 on a critical hit. If you want to go with a critical focus build, look into something that debuffs your enemy on a critical hit to get more value out of it.

Yup, I agree entirely, I just didn't know what else to pick.

Thanks to you and the other contributors of this thread, I am now full of better options :)

- Personally, I would take Quick Draw before Improved Initiative. I find that saving the move action to get your weapons out is more useful than trying to go first.

Thanks for the tip, I'll make the change in the next version of the build that I'm working on.

- See if your GM will let the Double Slice feat work with the Unchained Rogue's Dex to Damage. It would be a house rule, but getting full damage on your off hand attack could be nice.

That house rule sounds fair indeed, when reading the feat description.

By level 20 (and I'll probably never reach it), that's +3.5 damage with a DEX of 24. I guess it will be boosted by items, let's say 28 so +4.5 per off-hand attack which hits, that's a maximum of +13.5 damage per round.

At the scale of the first Campaigh though, it will be around +2.5 (rounded up to +3 since I would get +2 w/o the feat) damage per off-hand attack which hits and I will have 1 off-hand attack most of the time (the 2nd one will arrive at Character level 7).

+3 damage per hit is 50% more than Weapon Specialisation so, even though the main source of damage is Sneak Attacks, it sounds really, really good, probably too good to pass up !

- For dex build barbarian dips, check out the Urban Barbarian archetype. Raging for Dex is kind of nice, and you can still use a lot of your skills. (I'm guessing that your current dip is Unchained Barbarian--if so, that is also a good choice.)

Can you take levels in a "chained" and "unchained" classes at the same time ? My Game Master is ok with unchained since they are updated versions, so to me, it would feel wrong to pick a chained barbarian archetype which is no longer legit with the unchained version...

*****

On a side note, I dived deeper into Deific Obedience thanks to Dracoknight, notably the Evangelist PRC that he's using, and the Sentinel PRC as well (for the other build that I'll work on, to compare with the current one). They both seem crazy o_O

Is there any reason NOT to take 8 levels of Evangelist (to avoid further BAB loss from 9) instead of the 8 final levels of Unchained Rogue ? I'll meet the conditions anyway and all I lose is one Rogue's Edge and 1d8 of Sneak Damage (if I also drop a Rogue level for Barbarian), and I'd get +2 dodge AC, a language and a bonus to untrained skills... It seems too good to be true.

That sounds interesting, and potentially compatible with the build. At least, it gives me some background ideas. Thanks =)

I found more details in the French Pathfinder wiki (I am from France).

Maybe some traits would go well with this background, to complement the build and its flavor :)

I think the first step is cut off all the levels that are "out of campaign". If the plan is going from lv1-lv7 for the campaign then don't spend much time if any on lv8+ and be looking for things that work around lv3-4 as much later you may never get there/less time to do it. It just really clogs up a lot of space and leads to poor decisions.

Example: Oh at lv9 I could do this neat thing if I take a specific feat at 5 and 7. So you plan that out, and then game ends at 7 and you had a bad feat at 5.

That sounds wise.

Since the only purpose of Combat Expertise and Two-Weapon Feint is enabling Improved Two-Weapon Feint at 9, I could get rid of those 2 (I guess that's what you had in mind ?).

The only restriction is that Combat Expertise is taken as a Combat Trick, so it can only be replaced by another Combat feat or Rogue Talent...

I could also delay Improved Initiative, it seems good to me but maybe some feats would be more useful early on ?

Which three feats would you suggest that I take instead of those 3 ? Bleeding Attack, Deific Obedience and Iron Will ?

(I could take Barbarian at 7, before the 3rd Fighter level that doesn't bring anything).

First: Might give you a idea where the deific obedience is from. The idea why you want to pick it up early is that its just easier to deal with the to-hit stuff early on and garantee your hits, as for roleplaying purposes... well for Raviell here he was a street thug before being converted to Pharasma and now wanders as a priest with a past. ( He started at lvl 6 btw )

Second: I picked up mobility and spring attack as the "Scout" archtype gives you sneak attack if you charge, and at lvl 10 you only need to move 10ft to get sneak attack.

Thanks for the link. Actually, it's the only one that I had found about Pharasma, and the daily ritual seems to imply many ropleplaying details :

Thanks for the quick answers !

In the meantime, I have started considering a level of (unchained) Barbarian at level 11 (or sooner ?). I don't really need Improved Critical and I could take Extra Rage instead. That would translate into +2 to hit, damage and will saves whenever I use the rage. Plus, I could pick the Hurler archetype to double Dagger range, or even better, the Titan Mauler archetype for a +1 bonus to hit and AC against anything bigger than a Halfling... Which is pretty much everything, right ? :P

Or, I could just keep the default movement speed bonus, I have no idea how useful it is.

On top of the 4 extra HP, it would make me lose the final rogue talent, Defensive Roll, which isn't necessary, and Sneak Attack would be untouched, so overall it seems like a good tradeoff.

Of course, if I have to take Deific Obedience : Pharasma too, then I would have to find another feat to drop instead... :-/

If you are going to use daggers use "Deific Obedience" with Pharasma earlier i feel. With the best setup for "to-hit" at lvl 3:

+2 BAB, +2 Deific Obedience, +1 Weapon Focus (Daggers), +1 Masterwork Weapon, +1 with your trait and your DEX modifier.
So 2+2+1+1+1+4 Which is a +11 at lvl 3. And thats not counting you as being halfling which ticks you in at +12.

I had a hard time finding web resources about Pharasma and the Obedience feat, even though it was often mentioned in dagger-based builds.

How does it affect your role-play, and which feat would you delay to take Obedience sooner ? How do you "introduce" the feat to your character during an adventure ?

Heres my character which used a similar concept:

Raviel Hess

Thanks for the link. I did not know about the Evangelist prestige class and I can see how smart it is to pick it up in a dagger-Pharasma build, especially now that I've discovered Aligned Class o_O

You have picked Mobility and Spring attack, are those feats really efficient for a rogue ?

There's always the Canny Tumble feat- which is almost a free Feint when tumbling.

Indeed, but like Improved Feint, it only works for 1 attack. The only feat working to enable sneak-attack damage for several attacks that I found is Improved Two-Weapon Feint (but I am new to Pathfinder so I probably didn't read everything !).

alternatively, there's the Warpriest you can take instead of the fighter. You get Weapon Focus for free, your weapon damage increases a size (1d3 to 1d4), and if you put at least invest in some Wisdom get access to Divine Favor.

Downside is, it's not a full-BAB class.

Yes, I read a bit about that option but it doesn't seem optimal :

I don't know why i've invested points to increase your rogue's strength. With Rogue's Finesse- adding your dex to damage- you really shouldn't need that much strength.

I was thinking of encumbrance, but as you know, my limited experience isn't helping here... Do you think I could go with less than 11 ?

good luck with your build, I have plans for a U.Rogue (Dagger Master)/Warpriest along the same lines- except Gnome and devout to Desna (read: Starknives)

I don't know deities very well yet, but I considered the starknife at some point, I liked the flavor but, like the kukri, it required an extra feat and didn't seem to be worth it (extra range is only useful when you throw, obviously, and crits aren't the main damage source here). Why Gnome ?

Consider taking Iron Will or at least one of the anti-mind control Rogue Talents (if not both) much sooner than 17. Improved Iron Will might even be worth it. Rogue will saves suck. Failing will saves usually means very bad things.

Yeah, I added Iron Will to the mix after reading similar advice. But I don't know which feats I could afford to delay to grab it sooner, they all add significant stuffs and I lack the experience to prioritize.

Hello everyone :)

First, I'll introduce myself. I'm 35, I've been roleplaying (and game-mastering) for about 20 years. However, until recently, my tabletop D&D experience was limited to AD&D.

I still know a little about D&D V3 through the PC game Neverwinter Nights, which I played a lot. I enjoyed making optimised character builds then, so I am indirectly familiar with the Pathfinder game system, though I am biased because video games put a strong emphasis on combats. I know little about non-combat feats, how important they are, etc.

One of my RP friends decided to game-master a Pathfinder campaign. It should take us to level 7, and who knows, it could be followed with another campaign if everything goes well.

The GM enjoys combat more than intrigues and he considers character optimisation to be part of the fun in Pathfinder, so I started working on a first build this weekend ! I learned a lot from online resources, including quite a lot of very insightful posts / topics here :)

To sum it up : halfling unchained rogue with a few fighter levels, high initiative and a big sneak-attack dice pool, two-weapon fighting and feints to use that dice pool.

We are getting the generous 25-point option for stats, at least 2 traits (maybe a 3rd ?) and probably max HP (no dice rolls), because we will only be 3 players. The other characters will be a priest (melee and buffs) and an undefined concept that will be in melee too (paladin or dervish bard maybe, the player hasn't decided yet). So, I should have lots of flanking opportunities but we might be outnumbered often.

I chose the knifedagger archetype for its obvious synergies with my concept, including the alternate favored-class halfling bonus for rogues. However, I didn't add the scout archetype (but I could if you think it would be better), because it seemed like a waste to charge and only attack once (with sneak-attack bonus) when the character is all about attacking as many times as possible.

I also considered the swashbuckler rogue archetype, to get kukri proficiency at level 1 and an extra combat feat (that I don't actually want since I have no rogue talent to replace). Kukris look like a good idea because of finesse training (= dex bonus to damage), but then I would have to get things like Power Attack and Critical focus (the alternate halfling bonus only works with daggers) to make the most of them, which would imply 4 more fighter levels (= lower sneak-attack dice pool and d6 instead of d8) or sacrificing important feats in the build. Also, I would need a costly 15 STR (to get to 13). It might be better if I switched to human for the extra feats, but I'd lose all the sweet bonuses from small size, halfling luck etc... And I have never RP'ed a halfling and I'd like to try that (it is not mandatory though).

At some point, I added 2 or 4 Halfling Opportunist levels to the build, but I eventually dropped them, as I was trading 1-2 advanced rogue talents for trap finding, save bonuses, a little RP asset and Exploiting Maneuver which seems hard to use often. It seemed nice for flavor but inferior overall.

Finally, I considered the Slayer and Swashbuckler classes but they didn' t seem to provide as much as the 4 Fighter levels, and adding them on top of those fighter levels would once again cost advanced rogue talents and some sneak-attack dice... Correct me if I'm wrong but it didn't seem optimal.

I didn't do skills and items, I don't expect to encounter any difficulty there. Advice would be welcome for anything unusual though. Notably, I don't know yet which skills would be best to pick with rogue's edge.

Overall, I'm satisfied with my build but I'm pretty sure that my lack of experience might have translated into mistakes and / or omissions. I only picked combat-related feats and talents, it could be bad, or not ? So, I'm open to criticism and optimisation tips from you guys !

I'm hesitating between this concept and a high STR, two-hander wielding dude with a big sword (or other weapon). It seems a lot more "bland" and boring, but I don't know which would be the most efficient in combat so I intend to work on it later in order to compare them (and enjoy the building process itself :P).

Here is the build, let me know what you think. Many thanks in advance =D

***

Race : Halfling

STR : 13 - 2 = 11
DEX : 17 + 2 = 19
CON : 12 + 0 = 12
INT : 14 + 0 = 14
WIS : 10 + 0 = 10
CHA : 12 + 2 = 14
(Cost : 25)

AC +1
Attack Bonus +1
CMB -1
CMD -1
Stealth +4
Save (vs Fear) +2
Save (all) +1
Perception +2
Fleet of Foot (normal speed)
Slings proficiency
Halfling Staff = martial weapon
Languages : Common, Halfling, +2 (?)

Traits :
Reactionary : Initiative +2
River Rat : dagger damage +1 & Swim +1 (class skill)

Level 1 : unchained rogue 1 (knifemaster) BAB +0
Finesse training, sneak attack +1d8
char feat : two-weapon fighting
Favored class : "pseudo" critical focus +0.5 (dagger)
hp=1d8+1

Level 2 : rogue 2 BAB +1
Hidden blade +1, Evasion, rogue talent : Weapon training = Weapon Focus : dagger
Favored class : "pseudo" critical focus +1 (dagger)
hp=2d8+2

Level 3 : rogue 3 BAB +2
Blade sense +1, finesse training (dagger), sneak attack +2d8
char feat : Improved initiative
Favored class : "pseudo" critical focus +1.5 (dagger)
hp=3d8+3

Level 4 : rogue 4 BAB +3
Hidden blade +2, Debilitating injury, uncanny dodge, rogue talent : Combat Trick = Combat Expertise
Favored class : "pseudo" critical focus +2 (dagger)
hp=4d8+4 DEX+1=20

Level 5 : fighter 1 (weapon master : dagger) BAB +4 hp=4d8+1d10+5
Bonus feat : Quick Draw
Char feat : Two-Weapon Feint

Level 6 : fighter 2 BAB +5
Weapon guard +1, Bonus feat : Dodge
hp=4d8+2d10+6

Level 7 : fighter 3 BAB +6/+1
Weapon training +1
Char feat : Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
hp=4d8+3d10+7

[END OF CAMPAIGN]

Level 8 : fighter 4 BAB +7/+2
Bonus feat : Weapon Specialisation : dagger
hp=4d8+4d10+8 DEX+1=21

Level 9 : rogue 5 BAB +7/+2
Rogue's edge, sneak attack +3d8
Char feat : Improved Two-Weapon Feint
Favored class : "pseudo" critical focus +2.5 (dagger)
hp=5d8+4d10+9

Level 10 : rogue 6 BAB +8/+3
Hidden blade +3, Blade sense +2, rogue talent : Bleeding attack
Favored class : "pseudo" critical focus +3 (dagger)
hp=6d8+4d10+10

Level 11 : rogue 7 BAB +9/+4
Sneak attack +4d8
Char feat : Improved critical [OR Deific Obedience : Pharasma if RP-compatible]
Favored class : "pseudo" critical focus +3.5 (dagger)
hp=7d8+4d10+11

Level 12 : Rogue 8 BAB +10/+5
Hidden blade +4, Improved uncanny dodge, ninja trick : Combat trick = Two-Weapon Defense
Favored class : "pseudo" critical focus +4 (dagger)
hp=8d8+4d10+12 DEX+1=22

Level 13 : rogue 9 BAB +10/+5
Blade sense +3, sneak attack +5d8
Char feat : Combat Reflexes
Favored class : hp+1
hp=9d8+4d10+14

Level 14 : rogue 10 BAB +11/+6/+1
Hidden blade +5, Advanced talents, rogue talent : Crippling Strike, rogue's edge
Favored class : hp+1
hp=10d8+4d10+16

Level 15 : rogue 11 BAB +12/+7/+2
Sneak attack +6d8
Finesse training (another weapon ?)
Char feat : Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Favored class : hp+1
hp=11d8+4d10+18

Level 16 : rogue 12 BAB +13/+8/+3
Hidden blade +6 Blade sense +4 rogue talent : Quick shot
Favored class : hp+1
hp=12d8+4d10+20 DEX+1=22

Level 17 : rogue 13 BAB +13/+8/+3
Sneak attack +7d8
Char feat : Iron Will
Favored class : hp+1
hp=13d8+4d10+22

Level 18 : rogue 14 BAB +14/+9/+4
Hidden blade +7, Rogue talent : Opportunist
Favored class : hp+1
14d8+4d10+24

Level 19 : rogue 15 BAB +15/+10/+5
Blade sense +5, Rogue's edge, sneak attack +8d8
Char feat : Toughness (hp+19)
Favored class : hp+1
hp=15d8+4d10+45

Level 20 : rogue 16 BAB +16/+11/+6/+1
Hidden blade +8 Rogue Talent : Defensive roll
Favored class : hp+1
hp=16d8+4d10+48 DEX+1=24

Final main Attack Bonus : +16 (BAB) +7 (dex) -2 (TWF) +1 (Small) +1 (Weapon Focus) +1 (Weapon Training) = +24

Final attacks : +24 / +24 / +19 / +19 / +14 / +14 / +9

Final dagger damage : 1d3 +7 (dex => finesse training) +1 (river rat) +1 (weapon training) +2 (weapon specialisation) + 8d8 (sneak attack) [+bleed(8) +injury -2STR] = 1d3 +11 +8d8 [+bleed (8) +injury -2STR] (min : 20 / max : 86+8)

Final AC : 10 (natural) +7 (dex) +1 (small) +1 (dodge) +1 (TWD) = 20

Final Initiative : 1d20 +7 (dex) +2 (reactive) +4 (improved initiative) = 1d20 +13

Final HP : 16d8+4d10+48 (min : 68 / max : 216)

Final saves (feat bonuses included) : fortitude 10 / reflex 12 / willpower 9

***