James Lewis 857's page

So what you are saying is that full BAB,

Lots of classes offer this.

more Quick Casts,

4 of them total. Not really all that helpful. Especially with items like Belt of Battle running around.

increased SR penetration,

+2? SR is either extremely weak or impossible to penetrate by 13th level+anyway. You're looking at SR 19 or so, and with practiced spellcaster, you're looking at +20 at level 17. Higher with spell penetration.

increased fort and will saves,

Plenty of classes offer this.

full caster levels and access to 5th level duskblade spells (including Disintegrate, slashing dispel, and Polar Ray)

Ever heard of prestige classes? You can get this with those.

isn't worth sticking around for?

Nope.

Yeah, I guess I really don't understand your issue.....Duskblade is a great class all the way through especially when coupled with PRPG's increased number of feats and other options introduced.

I'll build comparison characters if you want? 13 duskblade, 7 levels elsewhere vs. 20 duskblade.

@ James Lewis,

you mention a "nimble, an offensive, and a defensive stance that fighters can be trained in. Coincidentally - those are the three basic talen trees that I designed and posted back on page 2 of this thread: The Swashbuckler, Juggernaut, and Defender respectively is what they're called.

No, I was advocating using ideas from ToB far more.

James Lewis 857 wrote:

What about a 20th level wizard with save DC 40 (let's say, on a cold meteor swarm with energy substitution) (10 base + 11 abil mod + 2 spell focus + 2 cold focus + 4 from items + 9th level spell +2 from energy focus from elemental savant)?

that's 32, not 40, and thats 20 points lower than the bards song's average roll. That also requires some mixing and matching of abilities, whereas everything we used to get the Bard's DC was from the PH or the DMG (for items).

Umm... 10+11=21. 21+2=23. 23+2=25. 25+4=29. 29+9=38. 38+2=40.

Which, yes, is still 12 lower than the average roll for the Bard's perform check. And it still requires a 20 on most rolls. It doesn't make much of a difference if you still have to roll a 20.

LazarX wrote:

James Lewis 857 wrote:

Slight alterations to their spell list, perhaps (Destruction? Seriously?), but I don't think they even need a buff to still be roughly on par with existing classes (though making them useful beyond 13th level would be nice...).

What are you looking for that duskblade doesn't fill?

The duskblade is a great choice and IMNSHO, could simply be dropped in as is, if it weren't for the fact that it's IP owned by WOTC.

The whole point of PRPG is for you to be able to still use your existing splatbooks. You have Pathfinder RPG, you have PHB2, you have Beguilers and Dragon Shamans and Duskblades and Knights. The only changes are in feat progression and some skill and feat differences, and some spells have changed. That's it. If you want a Daggerspell Shaper, use Complete Adventurer with Pathfinder RPG. You don't need to reinvent the wheel here.

That's the whole point of Pathfinder being backward compatible that people seem to be missing.

I didn't miss that at all. What you seem to be missing, which I have pointed out at least twice now, is that there is no reason to continue duskblade past 13th level. Once you get full channeling, move on and pick up practiced spellcaster. Nothing else in that class iw roth the progression.

What about a 20th level wizard with save DC 40 (let's say, on a cold meteor swarm with energy substitution) (10 base + 11 abil mod + 2 spell focus + 2 cold focus + 4 from items + 9th level spell +2 from energy focus from elemental savant)? Most 20+ creatures need to roll at least a 19 to hit that save. Let's not forget spells that have no save. At all. Is this more powerful than, say, the afreomentioned meteor swarm, dishing out an average of 100 points of damage with no save, only a touch attack, and, with my above example, hits everything within 20 feet of that creature, dealing an average of 72 points of damage, save DC 40 for 36? Is this more powerful than time stop (which, of course, has no save)? Island in time (Once again, they can't save against it, it only affects you)? How about an ability that makes your entire party charge, dealing +50 damage for you, +25 damage for all of your allies, cumulative +2 bonus on attacks for everyone, and stuns the target (no save)?

Tell me, how does a DC 52 save available at level 20 stack up against things that allow no save as much as 3 levels earlier?

How about 20th level NPCs?

You mean the ones with access to magical gear?

Also, once someone starts counting out the monsters that are specifically immune to something, and listing ways that another creature [i]might[/] be immune to it ("Hulking hurlers aren't broken, what if they have to fight a ghost? Or.. or.. or someone behind a force wall!"), I usually assume it's broken.

Alright, so fighters are broken ("Incorporeal are immune unles they have certain kinds of weapons!"), casters are broken ("Most golems are immune!"), and rogues are broken ("There are still things they can't sneak attack!") Counting things that something is immune to does not make it broken. Every class has an ability that monsters or NPCs are immune to.

Even if nine foes out of ten happened to enter fights immune to sonic or death effects, the tenth would be an auto-win for the bard. Regardless of the CR of the creature. And the hard truth is that most of the other 9 can be brought down with a combination of dispellling/debuffing and that one bard ability, which is useable twenty times per day.

Even if nine foes out of 10 enter fights immune to blindsight, that 20th level scout is going to OWN that tenth one! AND HE CAN DO IT ALL DAY! BROKENBROKENBROKENBROKEN!

When a DM has to go out of his way to make every important foe immune to one character's best ability, the game has already been broken. This is an instant death effect with an average save DC in the high 50s, usable virtually at-will.

Avg. in high 50's, eh?

16 Cha starting. 5 through stat raises. 5 through wish. 6 enhancement. 32 Cha. +11 mod. So, 20 ranks + 3 (trained) + 3 (circlet of persuasion) + 3 (Skill focus) + 2 (masterwork instrument) + 11 (ability) + 10 (avg. roll). 52. Not high 50's. 50's, yes, but not high. And that's with a lot of focus towards this, when it all becomes useless against that vampire.

I'm familiar with the inclination of many gamers to give the system the benefit of the doubt, but in this case at least, please don't argue that this is balanced.

I can argue it all day. And, as far as your concerns, I can pump out dozens of examples of immune to it. Dozens. It isn't all that hard to make something immune to this ability. Just like it isn't hard to make someone immune to magic missiles. Or physical damage. Or, really, magic.

You have a problem if you are using spells as direct effects at that level anyway. Onc eyou ge to that point, clerics should be buffing, and wizards and sorcerers need to be battlefield shaping. Outside of that, direct hit spells are rarely of any use, because saves scale much faster than save DCs do.

Oh, by the way, there is a second level spell you should look at. It's called silence. Or, perhaps antimagic zone. As deadly performance is a Su ability, it won't function.

Also, congratulations, you've defeated death ward. One... of... them. What about the tarrasque? "Ha killed... you... oh." Wasted a bardic music on that. Also, due to the lack of appropriate encounters, as it stands, most creatures of this level are templated, prepared, and/or unique NPCs anyway. It isn't that hard to add a template or item that makes him immune.

There are tons of way to defeat this ability, because it has a lot of things depending on it. If the creature can't see, can't hear, is outside of range, has any number of items or spells active, is immune to death effects, has appropriate regeneration. Given the description of the spell, I would houserule that immunity to mind-affectings would work just as well.

By the way, let's compare. 20 Wizard casts time stop. Avg. 3 rounds to play with. Round 1: quickened wall of force, wall of force. Round 2: quickened wall of force, wall of force. Round 3: quickened wall of force, gate to the Elemntal Plane of Water, facing down.

No save. You drown. This is just with core. I could break out dozens of ways that any other caster can do better than this ability, even with one spell. Probably of lower level.

Note that I am also not arguing fluff... I don't agree with this. But other classes can pwn this ability.

Also, why would the wizard rampantly drop one of his precious 9th level spells on a whim? MDJ is a bit powerful to be tossing at every encounter you come across.

My main idea for a fix would be to include that even if they don't make the save, it can't be used for 24 hours. (ie vs. tarrasque or something with death ward, it won't work after the first try).

No, they can't, but you can just houserule that they can cast from all classes in armor (which makes the waaaay overpowered though). I would highly suggest tweaking their spell list though, as it has gotten no attention from splat books.

Also, I was mentioning updating because, as it stands, there is no reason to take duskblade beyond level 13. And because many of their spells make little sense, and there are plenty more that make a lot more sense.

Another thought is to take some of the ideas from ToB. For the fighter, running something akin to a warblade may work out well, as they rely on pure martial skill (as opposed to the mysticism associated with both swordsages and crusaders). It was also the best fix to put martial classes on par with the spellcasters.

IMO, fighters are still underwhelming, though vastly improved. A medieval fighter was trained in a variety of stances, which could be implemented, even on a three stance tier, Nimble Stance, Defensive Stance, Offensive Stance. Say, in nimble stance, you add your dex to attack and damage rolls, as opposed to strength, and gain bonuses to your reflex save; defensive, you gain a bonus to your AC and some DR; offensive, bonuses to your damage, and the ability to overcome/ignore DR. On top of that, specific combat maneuvers associated with the seperate stances.

Also, I disagree with assessments about leaving bow fighting to rangers. There are two reasons for this:

1) This implies that rangers should only be bow-users, although many prefer TWF rangers.

2) A bow fighter can gain all of the PBS feats prior to a ranger getting them, and can already be well down the WF tree as well. Rangers aren't bowmen, their warriors of nature. A TWF fighter will be better than a TWF ranger at TWF, but the ranger has other things. A bow fighter will be better than a bow ranger at using a bow, but the ranger has other things. Get it?

Clerics, along with druids, came out of the box broken in core with 3.5, and this has to do with two things: Clerics get domains and druids get wild shape.

A cleric's domains make them supremely powerful. 3/4 BAB, two good saves, spellcasting ability, all armor proficiencies, most shield proficiencies, simple weapons (with easy access to others), and domains. A free spell slot every level, plus the amazingly powerful domain abilities (and yes, most of them were ridiculously powerful), pushed clerics well outside of balance, further than their buff spells and miracle already did.

Whenever I broke this rule, it was because the other guidelines took precedence.

I bet this means that balance took precedence over compatability. I'm not Jason, but that seems like a good reason to me.

Spell name change, name of class abilities changed, name of class changed, boom, works under OGL and is completely legal.

Here's a few thoughts for those of you going against the ability.

How many creatures at CR 20 are immune to death effects?

Out of the MM, the following CR 20+ creatures exist: solar angel, balor, pit fiend, various dragons, tarrasque.

Out of these, solar angels have cleric spells (which... yeah, they pretty much ignore whatever they want), dragons have sorcerer spells (again, loads of spells to ignore death effects), and the tarrasque, which regenerates even if hit with a death effect. That means that only the balor or pit fiend is really susceptable to it, so 40% of the CR 20+ monsters. On top of that, there are a myriad of emplates that make things immune to death effects (vampire and ghost come to mind).

This is just out of the MM.

This is level 20, people. At this point, your characters are freaking legends. When you have wizards and sorcerers pulling time stop and clerics with miracle, this isn't all that powerful.

A DM needs to plan things to make things fun and challenging for their players. If that includes using monsters that are effectively immune to death effects (This solar angel has death ward up already), so be it. Of course, also allow them the chance to use the ability every now and then - making it obsolete is also not very fun.

Honestly, 3.75 is meant to be backwards compatible. As was already pointed out, duskblades fill the niche nicely, and are a base class. If you're looking for an arcane fighter base class tank, duskblades fit the bill. Good BAB, d8 HD, able to wear armor and use shields (heavy shields and medium armor at higher levels, so you can grab mithril full plate and still be golden). Their MAD isn't too bad, Str for damage, Int for spells, Con and Dex as secondaries, with Wis and Cha running tertiary.

Slight alterations to their spell list, perhaps (Destruction? Seriously?), but I don't think they even need a buff to still be roughly on par with existing classes (though making them useful beyond 13th level would be nice...).

What are you looking for that duskblade doesn't fill?

I've actually always had a problem with trapfinding being given to rogues. I tend to play a lot of charisma-based rogues, conmen, diplomats, things like that.

My suggestion would be to change trapfinding to a feat and give rogues a bonus feat at first level, with Trapfinding being an option, as well as a couple of others.

I have designed a non-combat rogue (did away with sneak attack in return for bonuses in social skills, and traded trapfinding out for... something that I can't remember now).

On a similar note, I would also like to see rogues get HiPS. I've always found it odd that rangers got it and rogues don't... it all but requires a dip in shadowdancer, as invisibility of any kind becomes superfluous at higher levels, unless you are pumping out enough money for scrolls of superior invis contantly.

I'd be happy with an updated duskblade, myself.