cfalcon wrote:
That's the point. Other classes are bound with limits so as to not be overpowered and break campaigns and prancing about in god-mode. Hexblade and Magus are similar in that they *suffer* limits put on them. Thank you.
What was learned. Comments, Suggestions, random ranting as promised. First impression was promising. Second and all further revealed the scary truth: Magus is... boring. All his class features, most of his spell-list, list of bonus feats - all unavoidably point towards combat and most require you to expend your spell-resources which are scarce. At least at this level, Magus simply has nothing to do except for blasting - it's really his only combat option, the only thing that he can do relatively well. Due to the mechanics of his class features and their narrow focus - between spell strike and spell strike he is a simply a fighter, only without a pile of bonus feats and straight BAB. Yes, he has his bonded weapon and some level of battlefield control with spells. But if he actually would engage in attempt to control with spells - he will lose his ability to spell strike when needed.
The following is our conclusion.
We will brain-storm and try to analyze the current Magus class-features. They are as follows: *Spellcasting: One who has experience with 3.5 can't really help but compare Magus with Duskblade. Duskblades is a spontaneous caster which supports his constant use of 3.5 Arcane Strike and his channeling ability. His spells per day are many, once again, to support the playstyle. Magus, on the other hand, is a preparation caster BUT his Magus Arcana still makes kind of a limited spontaneous caster. I can see a flavor point in preparation-based casting - he is a scholar of sword and spell alike, let it be so, that's nice. And he gets more spell per day than wizard. Good. But not good enough, since most of his class-features force him to use this spells for something other than spells and this something is generally weaker than spells or more situational. I will elaborate later, but as of now, our suggestion is to give Magus at least slightly more spells per day, maybe +1 at each level - that would change things a lot. *Spellstrike: This is how we used this ability during this playtest and, sincerely, this is how it should be to be worthwhile. You can use a standard action to cast any touch spell from Magus spell-list and deliver the spell through your weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals weapon damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved. No doubt, this is powerful. But this is also a signature ability for the class and, this is worth noting, a signature ability that in it's current rendition(that was not used in our play-test) does not progress with levels. At all. Yes, you get it on 1st level, but you also can't use it efficiently till later, it kills your action economy dead and is nowhere near a guaranteed success(in any rendition, really). Would it hurt so much to award this ability on 3rd, or even 6th level, but in actually working state? Further, it interacts with next class-feature, Spell Combat in a disappointingly one-way manner. You can't prepare a spell into your weapon and then cast True Strike with Spell Combat, for example, since any and all held touch spells will harmlessly dissipate upon casting of any other spell. This is an understandable limit to class power and it should not be lifted, but this is not the only limit, this is another nail in a coffin. This is what we suggest:
*Spell Combat: 2nd level, as with Ranger combat style. This is good. It allows for tactics, control, making improvised shadow pounces with Dimension Door, all around steady ability. The Concentration penalty is more than manageable as the build above shows, and we even sure that it can be made with less effort. Unlike Spellstrike, this ability actually improves with level, but in what way? It diminishes the penalty for using this ability. And here we thought that Pathfinder is about giving bonuses, rewarding with increasingly powerful abilities, rewarding for staying in one class to high level. All we get is a lifted penalty, with no additional options or bonuses. It states that it works "much like two-weapon fighting" - and it would be *really* good if that would be so.
This gives you mid-to-high-level options, nice progression and gives a feel of a real Spell Combat performed by melee caster you should be. Note, however, that 4 attacks per round(3 from BAB and 1 from Haste-like effects) is maximum you can achieve without combat reflexes and generally building your character around combat reflexes - and still none of these suggested options affect your AoO. Our estimation is that it's powerful but nowhere near overpowered. Magus Arcana:
First, as it was already mentioned on this board and beyond, and we completely agree, that Medium and Heavy Armor Casting should be made into options for Magus Arcana. No amount of buffing, no amount of thick armor can make this class as durable and scary in melee combat as Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin are. So, most builds will probably go with light, or medium armor and only very specific(see suggestions below) build would need heavy armor. Forcing a choice is never a good thing. -Arcane Accuracy. This gives Insight bonus on attack rolls, just as True Strike does. Only much, much lesser bonus. On the other hand, it's a [Su] ability and therefore, probably, does not disperse your held touch spell. But if this is an intended use, i can't see why you won't cast True Strike on the first round and then your attack spell on the second. Maximum bonus you can receive from this is +6, on one round, by burning 6th level spell-slot. By casting 1st level spell, you can receive +20. Granted, this ability is a swift action. But there's Arcane Strike, taking away your swift action, scaling with level, and more useful. The benefits of this ability are too small, too short and too situational, while requiring considerable resources from you. Maybe if it last 1 min./caster level or at least 1 round/caster level - it would be worth it. -Spell Shield. Same thing. There is a 1st level spell that does exactly the same, but better, earlier and for longer time. Yes, this spell is not an immediate action, but if you prepare it and cast it, you would not need to waste your immediate to give yourself Shield bonus to AC - you would already have it. +1/+2 AC gain, starting from levels 13/16 is simply not worth it. There are 5th and 6th level spells that will do you more good. On the other hand, if this bonus will be Deflection bonus, and will last 1 min./caster level or at least 1 round/caster level - it would be worth it. -Broad Study. Good, solid option. Multiclassing to get spells into your spell-list is an old trick, but this does it very clean and without abuse. -Concentrate. Our Magus has it, and would rather not has it. Extra maneuver mastery would be more useful. 1/day? 1 daily use of ability that is relevant only at low levels? Why? -Critical Strike. As noted above, this is cruel and unfair. Why this base class has a capstone ability of a prestige class 4 level earlier than said prestige class? Eldritch Knight will be reprinted in Ultimate Magic with better abilities? -Dispelling Strike. This might be useful, might be worth taking, but you have Dispel Magic on 3rd level, 2 levels earlier than this Arcana becomes available. And still you can't dispell 7-8-9th level spells with it. And later, you will get Greater Dispell Magic. Added versatility in the form of not needing to memorize Dispells is tempting but can prove to be undoing of Magus. High risk, medium reward. -Empowered, Maximized Magic. This class features can be bought with gold, at reasonable price and would be usable more times per day. "3+Int modifier uses per day" will redeem Empowered Magic. Maximizing is just bad. -Familiar. This one's good. That's a good option to have, good option to take. This is the one of only two Magus Arcana(the second being Broad Study), that have uses outside of combat. -Hasted Assault. This, again, is confusing. One can get this at 9 level, 2 levels after Haste is available. Sacrificing 1st and 2nd level spells to this ability is worth it for short term boosts. Sacrificing 3rd and higher level spells is worthless. It can safely be said that this feature badly scales with level. Still more useful than Dispelling Strike. -Maneuver Mastery. Once again, it lifts the penalty instead of giving a bonus. Taking this option is expressing a desire to focus in one, maybe 2 maneuvers, while other maneuver-oriented combat classed - Fighter and Monk, can focus in all of them and then extra focus in some, and then perfect 1 or 2 without much effort. Would it hurt to award at least +2 bonus on top of lifted penalty for such dedication? How, exactly it's even a "mastery" if all that it does is lets you use *one* maneuver on par with, say, ranger? -Quickened Magic. Ability to quicken a 6th level spell without having access to higher level spells is good and powerful. No objections here, 1/day is perfectly balanced given the circumstances. -Reflection. This one is good. More so given the fact that there is no spell turning effects on Magus spell-list. Even more so if combined with Counterstrike. -Silent Magic. This class features can be bought with gold, at reasonable price and would be usable more times per day. "3+Int modifier uses per day" will redeem Silent Magic to some degree, but it still will be situational and metamagic rod will still be better. -Still Magic. So, you get to cast in armor 1/day. Wait, you can do that all day long without this Arcana. This can be used to escape really scary grapples. Dimension Door can be used to do the same with more reliable effect. Still This class features can be bought with gold, at reasonable price and would be usable more times per day. "3+Int modifier uses per day" will redeem Still Magic to some degree and it still will be situational. What we suggest:
At 8th level
At 8th level
At 6th level
At 4th Level
Some of these will require adding proficiences to Magus list, obviously, but still, it's worth not forcing players into one and only combat style.
*Arcane Weapon. This is pretty good and pretty standard. Arcane Duelist Bard can do this, Arcane Archers can kinda do kinda this. Maybe, just maybe, here is the place where arcane spell-slots should be burned? Sacrifice a spell to the weapon, weapon gets enhancement bonuses either on attack or damage(tracked separately) based on the total spell levels sacrificed for the whole day. Weapon can't receive more spell levels than 1/2 your caster level. This effect can be dispelled or suppressed as normal, using your caster level as target DC. If dispell is successful, sacrificed spells are lost. Overall we are also surprised that there's no Dueling and Defending on the list. *Counterstrike. Situational but very good when this kind of situation arise. No objections or suggestions. *Weapon Bond. These are nice and useful and flavorful abilities. 19th level. I can read about them, i can comment on them and will never ever use them in real game. *True Magus. I guess that all these mishaps, hindrances and general pain for the last 19 levels were due to the fact that my Magus was Untrue. Good to know. Bonuses are to the appropriate areas but to small for a 20th level capstone ability. We can't really comment on this, 20th level is just too 20th level. That wraps it. The Pathfinder really needs a base arcane gish class, and much hopes are tied to Magus to fill this role. But, no offence, at the moment it looks like Paizo is on the way to repeating the mistake WotC made with Hexblade at the dawn of 3.5 - painfully hard limit on uses of signature ability per day, limited casting, extremely limited choice of roles to fill and penalties everywhere all for the ability to cast in armor. And Hexblade got fighter BAB! Please don't let this happen again. P.S.
P.P.S
Greetings everyone. I thought that now is as good time as any(if not better) to stop lurking anonymously and contribute to the community, so here's the report on my Magus play-testing.
Characters.
Shadow:
NE Male Elf Magus 6 Init: +4; Senses: Low-light vision; Perception +8 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- AC 19, touch 14, flat-footed 15 HP 34(8+5d8+6) For +5, Ref +6, Will +5 Concentration(adjacent to Sorrow): +21 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Speed 30 ft. Melee: Whip +9(1d4+3+1d6 electricity/20x2/) or Cestus +9(1d4+3/19-20x2/) Spells Prepared: 0(at will)-Acid Splash, Spark, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Mage Hand 1st-True Strike, Hydraulic Push, Shield, Shocking Grasp*3 2nd-Alter Self, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Spider Climb ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Str 14, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 10 Base Atk +4; CMB +6(+8 on trip); CMD 19 Feats: Combat Casting, Weapon Finesse, Shielded Caster, Arcane Strike Skills: Knowledge(Arcane, Planes) + 14, Spellcraft +14, Acrobatics +7, Perception +8, Stealth +15, Use Magic Device +9 Modifiers: +2 Perception, +5 Stealth(Shadow armor) Traits: Focused Mind, Heirloom Weapon(Scorpion Whip) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Gear: Shadow Mithral chainshirt +1, mithral scorpion whip +1, mithral cestus +1, Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2, Ring Of Sustenance, scrolls, wands, odds and ends -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorrow:
NE Male Elf Fighter 2/Transmuter(Enhancement) 4 Init +5; Senses: Low-light vision; Perception +2 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10 HP 29(10+1d10+4d4+6) For +5, Ref +4, Will +4 Concentration(adjacent to Shadow): +18 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Speed 30 ft. Melee: Curve Blade +7(1d10+3/18-20x2/) Spells Prepared: 0(at will)-Resistance, Detect Magic, Ray of Frost, Touch of Fatigue, Message 1st-Mage Armor, Shield, Obscuring Mist, Lead Blades 2nd-Alter Self, Bull's Strength, Knock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Str 14, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 10 Base Atk +4; CMB +6; CMD 18(19 vs bull-rush, trip, overrun, drag & reposition) Feats: Power Attack, Combat Casting, Shield of Swings, Shielded Caster, Arcane Strike, Scribe Scroll Skills: Appraise +13, Knowledge(Dung., Arcana, Nature, Religion) +13, Spellcraft +13 Traits: Magical Knack, Warrior of Old ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Gear: Mithral Elven Curve Blade +1, Ring of Sustenance, scrolls, wands, odds and ends -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Encounters(Shadow and Sorrow were sent by their master to track and eliminate an entity called Bbegoroboss, lurking within dark folk enclave):
First 7 encounters:
2 Dark Creepers(patrol) - Shadow and Sorrow encountered 5 such patrols due to actively seeking them, reasoning that such course of action will blind the dark folk to their approach. or 1 Dark Creeper riding Fiendish Worg, with Fiendish Raven as a messenger for "sounding" alert(outrider) - two of these. I've kinda missed with challenge rating of patrols - all of them were cut down with minimum effort and with no buffing. Creepers were unable to use their sneak attack due to "back-to-back" tactic employed by my players, all fights were resolved by standard melee attacks and, occasionally one or two cantrips. Magus class features have seen no play. The encounters with worg riders proved more interesting, but again, not as challenging as i thought - largely due to very lucky rolls on Sorrow's power attack. Shadow got tripped once, in the first worg-encounter, but was quickly saved by already mentioned power attack. Raven messenger got shot down with cantrips. Second worg-rider was actually ambushed by S&S and dispatched in surprise round+1st round. This time, however, raven got away, due to bad rolls on cantrip attacks. Summary: Average/easy-challenge encounters discourage Magi to waste spell-resources on Spellstriking or risk Spell Combat for an advantage that is not apparently significant - mindful usage of consumables and cantrips is enough to survive and prevail through this kind of combat, though the help from teammates is necessary. Hard limit on the use of class features forces to play Magi as full-melee class with no gishness through most of encounters and that spawns boredom.
Next one:
(Shadow and Sorrow located the deserted village with dark folk enclave underneath. They entered the basement level of this village and go ambushed) 1 Darkmantle, 2 Bat Swarms. Bat Swarms were intended to be more of an environmental hazard during the fight with darkmantle - they were disturbed by darkmantle's descend from the ceiling and attacked everyone(including darkmantle). Surprise Round.
1 Round
2 Round
3 Round
(1d4+7+6d6, he rolled 30 on these 6d6) 4-5 Round
Amazingly, lower CR monster(Darkmantle) proved to be more challenging than dark creepers, and even dealt more damage. Spellstriking it was more of an avenging act than optimal decision, still the resulting damage was respectable for the level. Still no use for proper spell-combating.
Next one, challenging at last:
(Shadow and Sorrow rushed forward in the hopes of finding some combat before Alter Self wears out, putting on other combat buffs as they go. After exactly 3 minutes of very loud running, they entered the caverns lying beneath the deserted village) 1 Cloaker Another batlike grappler for my nongrappling gishes, this was first serious combat. Shadow shifting was quickly negated by lots of Dancing Lights, saves against Moan boosted with Resistance(for the lack of better save-boosting options, a preparation failure on behalf of players). Fully buffing took first 3 rounds, allthewhile Cloaker was held back by lights and random whip strikes. On the 4th round, the Cloaker managed to charge-grab Sorrow, separating him from Shadow and negating Shielded Caster bonuses. 4 Round
Sorrow. 5 Round
6 Round
7 Round
8 Round.
9 Round.
10-14 Round.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- After some discussion and decision making, we agreed to bring some further changes to how Magus class features work (more on that later), and as the result Elemental Touch replaced Spider Climb in Shadow's memorize. This was the only change ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This one is one of the last ones:
(Rested, Shadow and Sorrow ventured forth into what proved to be a more ancient village, buried in the caverns beneath ordinary not-ancient deserted village. Here they got to partially ambush the ambush) 1 Dark Stalker, 2 Dark Creepers, 1 Fiendish Worg Warned by the raven-messenger, remains of dark folk force set up an armed watching post on the "central street" of the buried village. None of the patrols came back to join them on the barricades, since said patrols were butchered.
1 Round.
2 Round.
3-5 Round.
6 Round
This improvised "city fight" was hell of 5ft. steps, tracking which terrain is difficult and which is not. As it is, i think i've overcomplicated this encounter for myself and my players. Hydraulic Pushing and then tripping with Spell Combat proved to be a decent tactic to avoid AoO(for attacking with whip) and disrupt enemy flanking. Over all, Sorrow was more stable than Shadow, due to higher AC and more reliable damage output. -----------------------------------------------------------------------
The last one: (The flash of light from Dark Stalker's death throes awakened the last guardian on the way to Bbegoroboss) 1 Wyvern. This is what the crossbows were for. Both players grasped the idea. They employed a simple tactic. They shared the remaining bolts and fired from both crossbow. As the wyvern rushed to attack one of them, that one used the surrounding structures to hide in, and while the wyvern tried to claw him out, the other rained bolts upon. At some point wyvern switches to second annoyance, but he hides in structures on his side of the street and so on.
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