Griffin1084's page

MerrikCale wrote:

I would love to see a Noble class for PFRPG

...we have Aristocrat for NPCs, surely the PCs need some luvin'. :)

The Aristocrat isn't all that bad of a start, I would probably just slap the bard (or marshal) abilities on top and call it something like "Presence" or "Bold Personality".

3.5 PHB - Travel Domain

Granted Powers
For a total time per day of 1 round per cleric level you possess, you can act normally regardless of magical effects that impede movement as if you were affected by the spell FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT. This effect occurs automatically as soon as it applies, lasts until it runs out or is no longer needed, and can operate multiple times per day (up to the total daily limit of rounds).

This granted power is a supernatural ability.

Add Survival to your list of cleric class skills.
Travel Domain Spells

1. Longstrider: Increases your speed.

2. Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).

3. Fly: Subject flies at speed of 60 ft.

4. Dimension Door: Teleports you short distance.

5. Teleport: Instantly transports you as far as 100 miles/level.

6. Find the Path: Shows most direct way to a location.

7. Teleport, Greater: As teleport, but no range limit and no off-target arrival.

8. Phase Door: Creates an invisible passage through wood or stone.

9. Astral Projection M: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.

Freedom of Movement
Abjuration

Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 4, Luck 4, Rgr 4
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or creature touched
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, allow water breathing.

Material Component
A leather thong, bound around the arm or a similar appendage.

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PATHFINDER - Travel Domain

Deities: Abadar, Cayden Cailean, Desna.
Level Ability

1st Dimensional Hop (Su): You can teleport up to 10 feet per caster level per day as a swift action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought with you.

2nd Expeditious Retreat (Sp): You can cast expeditious retreat 1/day per 2 caster levels you possess.

4th Levitate (Sp): You can cast levitate 1/day.

8th Flight (Su): You can f ly at your base speed for a number of rounds per day equal to your caster level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. Your
maneuverability while f lying in this manner is perfect, granting you a +8 racial bonus on Fly skill checks.

12th Dimension Door (Sp): You can cast dimension door 3/day.

16th Greater Teleport (Sp): You can cast greater teleport 1/day

20th Astral Projection (Sp): You can cast astral projection 1/day

DIMENSION DOOR
Conjuration (Teleportation)

Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4, Travel 4
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No and Yes (object)

You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. AFTER USING THIS SPELL, YOU CAN’T TAKE ANY OTHER ACTIONS UNTIL YOUR NEXT TURN. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.

If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.

If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature travelling with you take an additional 4d6 points of damage and the spell simply fails.

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Yup, all that for one sentence... AFTER USING THIS SPELL, YOU CAN’T TAKE ANY OTHER ACTIONS UNTIL YOUR NEXT TURN. That... is ... your.. ANSWER. :)

I did my best to compare the ability to the original and then discovered that the original 3.5 PHB ability was also emulating a 4th level spell, Freedom Of Movement. However it does it in a much better, less game breaking manner. However, I agree some of the previous posters that that teleportation of any kind at 1ST LEVEL is broken. ( Including the ‘Benign Transposition’ spell from the Spell Compendium )

As for dealing with an Enlarged Chain Fighter... IMPROVED DISARM & IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE
I believe this was called... “Wow, thanks for the +1 Silver Undead Bane Ghost Touching Spiked Chain!”
or as I would’ve put it... “A very unhappy undead hunting ranger.”

First off I am personally biased towarded 3.5e (and Pathfinder) myself, not to mention I have taught at least 5 people how to play using the 3.5 rules without a problem, 2 of which went on to now DM their own games.

I agree with N'wah above about starting her out with a "standard fighter", this is the way to go with newbies. This way they can learn the fundamentals of initiative, standard actions, move actions, etc.... aka the basics. "Standard" meaning none of the "combat expertise" tree, or at least that's what I believe it means. If she understands this well enough and has a strong desire to try magic, let her multi-class Sorcerer, Cleric, or even just start a new character.

It wouldn't hurt to 'twink' her out some and throw a low level magic item her way either... something fun, or just something awesome for 1st level. (Cloak & Boots of Elvenkind, +2 weapon, etc.) Working it into her story would be all that much more involving for her... Inherited /Stolen /Sought After again this could be another tie in for the NPC I mention next.

Make an NPC Cleric, Favored soul, Sorcerer, or Rogue to sidekick with her, but let her make all the decisions. With this sort of NPC she can ask questions in-game and stay immersed rather than breaking out to ask you "what she should do next".

Just a few ideas, I personally perfer playing an NPC when DM'ing, it can make things easier when the players get lost, but you honestly don't know how to direct them short of just blurting it out.

Good luck!

Griffin, don't get me wrong here. I have no mechanical issue with your build. I think it about as balanced as mine. The only issues I have are stylistic, and it appears you have the same with my idea.

Rather than debate the pros and cons endlessly, why don't we both take the time to do a formal write up and post them to the thread. That way, anyone who likes our ideas can mine them for use. Also, it may spur a little more input from others.

Anyway, I think the chance for this to make the beta is gone, and likely the final release will not be adding any classes, either. Still, it does lead to some stimulating reading.

Meh, I really wasn't trying to debate or argue. The Fighter/Mage and the Mage/Fighter both likely have a large following, it's just a matter of playstyle and theme. The concept I posted is about as formal as I really care to get. I'm not big on wishing and hoping for things that will likely not ever see the light of day again. On that note, I would agree that posting any major change requests/wishes at this point falls into the category under, "Wish in one hand and ... in the other and see which one fills up first.".

I was thinking an official core "class creator" might be something of interest. Using a point system to pick and choose abilities. I know there is at least two of them out on the web for 3.5. *shrug*

I felt that utility, control and blastiness is the way to go for the class.
...(paste)...
A warriormage needs to have some crowd control and direct damage, the flashier, the better.
...(paste)...

Griffin1084 wrote:

What you are describing exists, it's called a Warmage.

Warmage is not OGL. Wasn't the point if this thread to come up with a PFRPG warrior mage?

Looking at it from that persepctive, then yes... Pathfinder does/could not have THEE Warmage due to lack of OGL, but it is available for use if someone is using 3.5E splat books to enhance Pathfinder. That is after all the primary function of Pathfinder, backwards compatibility and enhancement of core classes to meet the power level of the splat books... or so I read at one point.

The topic of the post Ranger = (Fighter/Druid) Paladin = (Fighter/Cleric) where's the Fighter/Mage ? suggests a "martial" class with arcane suppliment. As I said, just because the Warmage is not OGL, doesn't mean you can't use it.

What doesn't seem right is gaining spells from 1st level with a fighter BAB and ability to wear armor...

The bard does that, but is a rogue BAB. However my image of the Fighter/Mage does not have Bardsong and his choice of weapons to use was also limited, but different. (Simple + 1 Weapon Group)

AND ability to channel spells into melee attacks AND...etc... It all seems a little too Book of 9 Swords to me. sorry.

I gave my concept Quick Cast at 4th level, which would let him cast only his CLASS (whatever it would be called) spells from a very limited, unique list, as a MOVE action. This is no worse than any Combat Expertise tree currently, which can be gotten at level 1 by a Fighter of any race.

I did not give him an Arcane Strike ability until level 8 as that is also not OGL.

I felt that utility, control and blastiness is the way to go for the class.
...(paste)...
A warriormage needs to have some crowd control and direct damage, the flashier, the better.

What you are describing exists, it's called a Warmage.

4. BAB bonus same as cleric.
...(paste)...
if you give the class the same BAB progression as a fighter you would need to tie spells to the ranger/paladin chart. Who wants a warrior mage who gets no spells to 4th or 5th level? and then be tied to spells far weaker than other characters of that level?

In the example concept I provided it does use the Paladin/Ranger spell progression, but starts casting at 1st level. While still being able to hold his own on the front line.

I advocated the cleric BAB and the bard spell progression because it appears to be a fair trade to slow base attack in exchange for a heightened use of arcane magic. When you add the idea of int bonus to AC when wearing light/medium armor, you can have a character that out of the box is at least 75% as good as a fighter, with some arcane power right away. seems reasonable to me. If it still isn't fighter enough for you, push the HP to d10.

It still looks like a Bard to me, the d10 HD doesn't help and isn't an acceptable bump. The average of a d4 class and a d10 class doesn't equate to a d10. A d8 was being fair, while a d6 would make it underpowered.

Also, there is no class currently that gains any stat bonus to AC while in more than Light Armor. Most classes with powers similar to this idea (add the idea of int bonus to AC when wearing light/medium armor)are Monk-based and are forbidden to wear "armor" period. If medium armor were a possibility, it would have to be after 5-6th level at least and would chew up another class ability or feat to allow him to actually cast in it, successfully.

The animal companion advancing at half ranger level always seemed to fall behind in what it could do. Has anyone looked into changing it to something with a straight minus to druid level for determining animal companion abilities, like the hexblades familiar.

It starts out behind and never catches up, nor does it provide any bonuses like a familiar does, making it virtually useless.

Not only is it useless, but it leads to the ridiculous renaming trend unimaginative yet hopeful players seem to fall prey to, (Sophie, Sophie II, Sophie III, Sophie IV, Sophie V, etc.) as if renaming it the same name 2-4 times is going to increase its luck or chance of survivability.

This is covered in a few other posts, I think.

EDIT: Yup, under 'General Discussion'.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/feedback/alpha3/general/rangersAnimalCompanion

...and what exactly is the deal with druids not knowing how to work a bow? Can't use metal weapons... except scimitars for some reason... but the best ranged weapon they can figure out is a sling? If there's one thing about the Pathfinder druid that disappointed my group, it would be the continuing reign of the sling-only ranged druid.

Sorry to go off topic, but that was the first thing I thought them I saw the thread title.

It likely stems from the origin of the Druid being placed in D&D as to why they use scimitars. I couldn't tell you why or where though.

As for not using bows, the animal companion might have something to do with that, no hunting... love animals, hug trees or some crap like that. 3.5E can use a crossbow though can't it? (I really do have to stop leaving my PHB at my DMs house.) Kind of odd though, makes you into a Druid Rifleman or Soldier of sorts, carrying a sabre (scimitar) at that point would almost be normal or themed. Add a Horse companion and you have a Cavalry... CHAAAAAAAARGE!!!

My GM was nice enough to let me cast as a Sorcerer once my no-companion version ended up being significantly less effective than everyone else in the party. It was nice to not have to decide in advance what to cast, and it brought me back up to about where everyone else was. The Druid spell list wont make you a powerhouse, esp without an animal companion to leverage some of the spells, but it does make you flexible if you can cast whatever spell is needed as a Sorcerer.

I had a DM who also used this method for Clerics, however that was 2nd Edition. I don't remember if we had Spontaneous Healing back then and we definitely did not have Domains. It actually makes quite a bit of sense as well since a Divine Caster, at least clerics, would likely pray to cast. Why not pray for the spell you need at any given moment, not just something you thought you might need at some point during 24 hours.

... if your magic is just going to enhance your combat abilities directly, why not just play a straight fighter? After all, if the spells allow you to exceed the straight fighter, then you fail your "don't do either job better than the original" rule. if they only just pull you even with a straight fighter, what's the point?

The point is the same as playing a Ranger, Paladin or any other Hybrid class. You have a niche and fancy unique powers that a fighter does not have access to, while still being able to be competant on the front lines. Asking "what's the point?" really makes this entire post kind of ...well... pointless. People want a Fighter/Mage, but are not willing to accept the Bard as the answer. "The Point": Brainstorming in the hopes that an 'acceptable' Fighter/Mage will make it into Pathfinder Final.

I fell that utility, control and blastiness is the way to go for the class.

All of those jobs belong to the other classes, you could essential do them, but at what point do you do them better and stand on the front line in combat as well? Answer: Duskblade *BROKEN*

4. BAB bonus same as cleric.

If you do not give it the same BAB as a Fighter/Ranger/Paladin you are essentially making a tough cleric or another bard. AND we know how people feel about the bard in this post already... Rogue/Mage filling an inappropriate slot of Fighter/Mage I believe was the census.

The key to this "new" class has to be that it is in some ways comparable to the Paladin and Ranger.

...(snip)...
Theme is my goal for such a class. A true Fighter/Mage class is still fighter first and mage for enhancing fighting abilities.

Food for thought...

level 1
• Good BAB progression (+1, +2, +3, etc.)
• d8 HD
• Light Armor & Light Shield
• Ability to cast in light armor without spell failure
• 2+INT starting skills
• Weapon Prof.: Simple + 1 Weapon Group (Swords, Axes, etc.)
• Unique/Limited spell list concentrating primarily on combat(?)
-*Buffs & Extra Damage through weapons. Not direct spell attacks.
-*Some utility spells. (Detect/Read Magic, etc.)
-*Poor Spell progression. (Ranger/Paladin progression)
-*Innate caster, Uses INT (No spellbook)

level 2
• Combat Style Choice: Combat Casting, Improved Initiative or
Improved Unarmed Strike

level 4
• Quick Cast Ability - cast spells from this class only, as a move
action instead of a standard action.

level 5
• Summon Familiar
• Weapon Group Proficiency of choice.

level 6
• Combat Style Choice: Battle Caster, Spring Attack or Improved

Familiar

level 7
• Energy Affinity 1 - Ability to modify any spell (from this class
only) with an energy desciptor to use the chosen type of energy
instead as a free action. (Acid, Electricity, Fire, Cold, Sonic)
You do not gain the entire list, only the one you have chosen.

level 8
• Arcane Strike Ability (as per feat)

level 10
• Aura Armor Ability: (Sacrifice a spell +1 AC/4 class levels
+Spell Level for a number of rounds equal to your INT bonus.)

• Energy Affinity 2 - As per Energy Affinity 1, You choose a
different energy type from the one you selected at 7th level.

------------------------
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Thoughts, ideas, suggestions?

I was pondering a low Energy Resistance as well, but it really didnt seem to fit the theme. The Energy Affinity is something I've always wanted my wizards/sorcerers to have, so I added it to the class as an ability, it keeps the Weapon Caster versitile at higher levels.

I limited quite a few starting features basing them off of the
Fighter & Wizard, then Ranger, Paladin & Bard. Since Pathfinder
has reached back into 2nd Ed. and brought back the weapon groups
for the fighter, I thought this would be an amazing opportunity to
use them. The character needs to compensate for the GOOD BAB
progression and the d8 HD, at the same time keeping some semblance
of a fighter's weapon variety. I didn't see a Fighter/Mage having
the complete martial weapons list, nor did I want to limit them
below what a Fighter can actually wield... they just have to
choose.

I like the Arcane Strike concept quite a bit, I think the class
should work off of it heavily at later levels. Sacrificing spells
for a rather nice, free action affect. The Aura Armor ability
might need to be earlier on, but at its current level it provides
that super boost for a short burst. Spell level isn't exactly this
class's strong suit. INT Bonus to AC would be nice, but would require removing something from this hypothetical build.

This IMO is how the Duskblade should look, as it would keep 1
class from doing the job of 2 classes at the same time and still
have that HYBRID flavor we all love about the Ranger/Paladin.
Having messed with the various online class generators a little
bit before, I believe this works pound for pound.

Yea, overall the Ranger's Animal Companion is relatively sucky by the time you get one and never really useful for anything other than scouting, which usually ends up in its death as well.

I'm not sure what the concept/purpose of the Ranger's Animal Companion was really suppose to be since a Ranger is a Melee Combat class and its Animal Companions are basically "minions with 1 hitpoint" compared to the level 4+ monsters and traps you'll be seeing.

I suppose if you get the free horse or camel, but they arent really that expensive to just buy. It's something like 95gp for a Horse with all the equipment in 3.5E. (saddle/saddle bags/bit & bridle, etc.) It's likely you won't need a mount for the first few adventures anyway.

Even giving the Animal Companion the Ranger's "Favored Enemy Bonus" does do a whole lot to improve it. That's great if your fighting you Favored Enemy, but what about the other 90-95% of the adventure(s)? Most DMs are not going to rearrange their entire campaign simply because you hate Goblins or Undead or whatever. They have to make it interesting for everyone playing, not just the Ranger, his minion and his hatred.

They should provide their innate "ALERTNESS" ability that all animals have, similar to the Wizard's Familiar, but for a different reason being as Rangers do not have a mental link. Example being a Riding Dog, their spot and listen bonuses are relatively high and without house ruling it that they "add to yours" or "get their own" perception check, they are just another 2HD mouth to feed, better go skill up that survival.

Also, there is suppose to be a "BOND" with said Animal Companion. To the point where your character is suppose to grieve when it dies. So sending them out to be smashed flat and then just resummoning Sophie the Snake III, seems a bit lacking from the original intent of an Animal Companion. I had this problem recently with my Kobold Druid and his Boar Mount. The DM and I looked through the rules to try and figure out why the Dire Boar is ...well... Dire.

Long story short, the Dire template does not exist from what we could tell and at level 7 a Druid with a Boar seems kinda silly when you can apparently dismiss the Boar and summon a Dire Boar which has like 31 STR I think. We have house ruled the Boar so he increases appropriately from level 1 to 7 and still be useful as a Companion. Yes, normally the Boar is a level 4 companion even for a druid, but the only difference between him and the Wolf is 1HD, High Natural Armor( 6 I think), and 1d8 damage, so we lowered those proportionately so he could be started with. (2HD, 4 Nat AC, 1d6 dmg.)

This especially comes into play when the Companion is suppose to be the character's best friend or super duper trusty steed. To simply dismiss the Boar whose your loyal friend and steed to summon a Dire Boar, beacuse he's better and the PHB says I can... seems kinda cold and heartless, not to mention not very realistic.

I would love to see the Ranger get something MORE than just a minion, but at what point does the class itself start to take hits for his Companion to be better. The other option that I mentioned above would be to have them provide a bonus, most likely "ALERTNESS".

I agree, he's useful. I just wouldn't plan om sticking him out front too often. Could be bad for his health. And yeah, there is no fighter / arcanr caster handy.

lol, there's an interesting story behind Bards and having them be out front. I'll shorten it up a bit and give the basics. Mind you this is the same guy in our group that has made several Bards and likes doing the Total Defense tactic.

DM - You see an orc with a doubleaxe.
Bard - I pull out my shield and brace for the charge!
Orc - Charges, rolls a 20 and confirms.
Bard - Dead.
Bard Player - Speechless.
Party - Speechless.
DM - Speechless.

Being as we are a fun group and our DMs are usually not hell-bent on just mopping the floor with us, it was cause for a "DO-OVER", but man was that funny as hell! :D

"I pull out my shield and brace for the charge!" - Me, mocking Bard player.

I have my PHB and Rules Compendium nearbye...

Fighting defensively is +2 to AC, but -4 to hit. +3 to AC if tumbling 5+ ranks. Can be stacked with Combat expertise feat defensively. If you're going to use Bardic Music and a standard action attack, that's all you'll be doing. No multiple attacks for you (or movement beyond 5'), even when the Bard gets them.

Total Defense is +4 to AC, but no attack. +6 to AC with tumbling 5+ ranks. No attacks of opportunity. Can't be stacked with fighting defensively, can be stacked with Combat Expertise feat defensively.

Note the chain shirt gives a 20% chance of arcane spell failure and limits DEX bonus to +4 and has a -2 armor check penalty. Annoying if you have to cast your regular arcane spells.

The heavy shield makes spells with somantic components impossible (unless you sling it). Presumably you're not trying to cast in the line of battle anyway. It has a -2 armor check penalty as well.

Bardic music is a standard action, no spells...

Thank you for taking the time to look up the numbers R_Chance, much appreciated. I had forgotten about the tumble and various synergy bonuses. Yes, plug a hole would probably be a better term, but they are damn good at it. I also agree with Brutesquad07 that the Bard is more a Rogue/Mage than a Fighter/Mage. I suppose the whole point was that while we all laugh at the Bard occasionally, he is and can be a useful asset to a team other than singing and looking pretty. I do believe the Bard is holding the current slot for "fighter/mage" as a hybrid though, even if hes not that great at the fighter portion of it.

Griffin1084 wrote:

R_Chance wrote:

Well, if you read a little further down in the OP post, you just made him laugh. And I have to admit, the concept of the bard as a "fighter / wizard" *is* funny. Not really enough of either there for that, is there?

If youve ever seen a Bard (16 Dex) with a chain shirt, heavy shield and a rapier, hold his own while singing and fighting defensively against 3+ orcs you probably wouldnt laugh that much as his armor class is better than some of the fighters who cannot afford to stay in defensive fighting due to accuracy issues.

On several occasions my one friend, who apparently likes bards, has been known to hold an entire flank of monsters while the fighters are defending the other 3 flanks. Also of note... we dont have any magic items other than scrolls and potions still at level 5.

Yes, we still point and laugh at him because he sings while he fights, but he is a very very viable tank with the correct setup.

How so? I do the Bard as a Mage/Fighter but it really doesn't work.

Also note this could be first level.

16 Dex: +3 AC
Chain Shirt: +4 AC
Heavy Shield: +2 AC
Fighting Defensively: +2 AC / -2 to hit
Total: 21 AC

16 Dex: +3 AC
Chain Shirt: +4 AC
Heavy Shield: +2 AC
Full Defense: +4 AC / -4 to hit
Total: 23 AC

I think I might have the bonuses for defensive fighting incorrect, but I am not near a PHB to check. Also Im not sure what our current bard is wearing, but he is cracking 30 AC at level 5. Im thinking leather armor and a higher dex, but he is human, so Im not sure as we have little to no magic items at all.

magnuskn wrote:

If you just use the normal classes and PrC's from the Complete series, you can get a fighter/mage with a caster level of 18 and a BAB of 17 at level 20. What more do you want? ;)

That character would be a Human Duskblade 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 8/ Abjurant Champion 5. Take one level of Eldritch Knight after the first seven levels to qualify for Abjurant Champion, then all five level of Abjurant Champion, then the rest Eldritch Knight.

Voila. Cheesy as hell, IMO, but quite possible. Yes, sometimes you can have your cake and eat it, too.

Uh, well some people would probably like a less convoluted route that doesn't make use of stuff some of their games might not have... and yeah, it's cheesy as hell too :)

Why not just take Duskblade to level 20 and just play the broken, overpowered class all the way out? Duslblade is the fastest way to make a Fighter and/or Wizard in your party feel like they really dont need to be there. A single class, should not replace any one of the core classes, let alone two of them at the same time. Those who argue this, please then explain why it was banned in Living GreyHawk play for me?

This IS the reason the Bard is your Hybrid for Fighter/Mage... He does not attack like a fighter, but can certainly hold his own in combat. He will usually be Dex based for AC and Finesse, not power. Sorry, you'll just have to grab a level of a "martial class" or a "feat" to get that greatsword/greataxe. He does not cast the variety of the Wizard or the Quantity of the Sorcerer, but he has a combination of Arcane & Divine, which no one else has without multiclassing. Both of those reasons AND... AAAAANNNNNDDDD he spews party buffs with absolutely no effort through singing.

'nuff said.

Well, if you read a little further down in the OP post, you just made him laugh. And I have to admit, the concept of the bard as a "fighter / wizard" *is* funny. Not really enough of either there for that, is there?

If youve ever seen a Bard (16 Dex) with a chain shirt, heavy shield and a rapier, hold his own while singing and fighting defensively against 3+ orcs you probably wouldnt laugh that much as his armor class is better than some of the fighters who cannot afford to stay in defensive fighting due to accuracy issues.

On several occasions my one friend, who apparently likes bards, has been known to hold an entire flank of monsters while the fighters are defending the other 3 flanks. Also of note... we dont have any magic items other than scrolls and potions still at level 5.

Yes, we still point and laugh at him because he sings while he fights, but he is a very very viable tank with the correct setup.

Well apart from a few abilities which could easily be rewritten as feat I honestly don't see much of a difference between a Fighter/Druid and a Ranger.

Or a Fighter/Cleric and a Paladin.

Optimized are there any real differences assuming a few new feats to fill the class flavour of the ranger and paly?

I disagree, I see quite a bit of difference in them. Most of which stem from being multi-classed. I honestly like having all of the class options, to include multiclassing. Sometimes you have an amazing theme that just has to be this or that. To simply oust a class because they my be similar would be a mistake. The hybrids have a place and usually receive unique abilities that other classes even multiclassed (non-hybrid) characters, would never have access to. (ex: Increased unarmed damage, Wisdom AC bonus, Rage, Increased Movement, Lay on Hands, Magical Warhorse, Favored enemy)

Ranger struggles the most in this arguement as a fighter can pretty much replace him every which way to Sunday. Favored enemy is nice and flavorful, but hardly a big loss... Track is a feat which could be taken in 3.5 and simply a Survival Bonus in Pathfinder.

Fighter/Druid:
PROS:
1. - 2 Feats only being 2nd level. (4 feats at 3rd level & if Human)
2a. - Animal Companion could serve as free mount/suitable flanker.
2b. - Ranger Animal companion comes to late in the game to be useful, eventually a multiclass character, even being druid, would have the same problem with an animal companionfalling behind the curve. (Natural Bond Feat only fixes +3 levels of multiclassing)
3. - Ability to Heal friends and self.

CONS:
1. - BAB does not increase on GOOD scale. (Straight Ranger +1, +2, etc.)
2. - No Track Feat or Combat Styles, which would require you to use the optional feats provided by 1st level and Fighter Bonus feats.
3. - "Multiclass Woes" ... Powerful start, mediocre finish unless heading for a prestige class. Straight Ranger or Fighter would be much better in melee, Straight Druid would be much better at casting and have much higher level spells.

OTHER:
1. - By the time Rangers get spells they are for the most part a big bunch of worthless and his time is better spent in combat.

Fighter/Cleric
PROS:
1. - 2 Feats only being 2nd level. (4 feats at 3rd level & if Human)
2. - Ability to Turn Undead. (and Healing Surge)
3. - Domain Powers.
4. - Ability to Heal friends and self.

CONS:
1. - BAB does not increase on GOOD scale.(Straight Paladin +1, +2, etc.)
2a. - No Paladin Powers, would have to be somehow incorporated as "Turn Undead" uses similar to the Healing Burst of Pathfinder.
2b. - Would not get Magical Warhorse, very useful tool in a Paladin's armory.
3. - "Multiclass Woes" ... Powerful start, mediocre finish unless heading for a prestige class. Straight Paladin or Fighter would be much better in melee, Straight Cleric would be much better at casting and have much higher level spells.

OTHER:
1. - By the time Paladins get spells they are for the most part a big bunch of worthless and his time is better spent in combat.

I also agree that the Pathfinder attempt was to upgrade our existing rules and make them somewhat backwards compatible like the last 30 years of D&D has been. To simply start yoinking "core" classes & races would punch a large sucking chest wound in that theory. Or just cost all of us 3 years of life in waiting and $300 in splat book material that should've been core book material aka 4E. R.I.P. D&D, it was a good 20 years, I will miss you when I'm playing Pathfinder. Yes, I R ranting, I'm done now. :D