Grayhorse's page

First, Grayhorse your post isn't very coherent. I'm not trying to be rude but it appears your understanding of the rules is tenuous and you don't make a very good case. Read what Hogarth said about the rules.

My initial impression with the Wiz and Sorc from Alpha 3 was that the sorcerer won big versus the wizard. But then looking into it a little more this wasn't really the case. As several people have pointed out specialist benefits now come with no sacrifice. Further, the generalist gets more powers also and again without sacrifice. There is a small loss in power because specialists don't continue getting new specialist powers when the PrC.

There are also some broken specialist abilities (for example free Metamagic, wish with no GP material component) I'm hoping these things are addressed in the beta.

A shrewd player will generally do a little better playing a wizard and a more casual gamer will come out better with the sorcerer... as far as I'm concerned that's how things should be. There is definitely some fine tuning in the specialist powers and the bloodline powers but things are closer than they have ever been.

You were in no way rude mate. However, my knowledge of the rules is fairly well when it comes to 3.5. Everyone here keeps assuming that specialist wizards or even wizards in general were somehow more powerful than sorc's in 3.5 just because they could know more spells. While having access to spells its nice, it isnt that over powering because they are still limited by the number per day they can cast. Sorc allthough limited by the total spells they could learn, where on par because they were capable of 2 additional spells at 20th level ending. The only benefit was that wizard got bonus feats to allow them to get meta magic feats easier. Now, you look at pathfinder sorc's. They are gaining bonus feats(just like a mage, just different styles of them), and insane powers from bloodlines(some anyway). The specialist mages(while they do gain spells at certain levels, are limited now by pathfinders definition of what they can have(allthough possible changes in beta coming for this). Now, I do understand that pathfinder allows them to cast out of prohibited schools, but at a cost of the specials gained from that school. My point, is there is a cost, while the sorc doesnt have a cost association with their new found additions. Also, with the specialist mages, they are just a repackaging of 3.5 rules(which they were not all that great to begin with). I have no issues with pathfinder changing the sorc, I really do like the changes, just they need to do some revamping of the wizards to give similar love(again just my opinion).

As far as the bonded items, I took a few hours yesterday and re-read what was proposed. I dont particularly like bonded items. To me it seems like they are now making it to where wizards are more item driven for extra power(if im reading it right). By adding spells to bonded items it allows them to cast these spells daily once added to bonded(am i right in reading it this way?). Even with the 1/2 costs and such, No one item can control this much magic. IT will allow for pseudo artifacts to be made for just one person to use(the mage who created it) if they get enough energy/spells built into the thing. What mage is gonna want a familiar?

Quandry,

Im not sure im following you. The way I was reading bonding, you still had to have the feats to enhance I thought(again i am probably wrong, because I dont truely understand it thoroughly).

In addition, you still have to pay 1/2 the cost to upgrade a item with a spell, which can run into the 100s if not 1000s for a level 1 enchantment. Also, the bonus feats for a wizard are still limited to wizard class feats. They cant be any feat, only the item creation and meta magic stuff or did I miss something there too?

Ive read the bonded item section several times, and to be truthful, i just cant get a feel for what they were trying to do, or even what or how it will effect the wizard class. We are suppose to play test this towards the end of the month, so I guess ill figure it out before too long(I hope).

Again, sorry for seeming like a blockhead, just dont understand it that well.

Grayhorse wrote:

Getting an additional higher level spell 1 level earlier is not huge. With the additions the sorceror is getting, its going to make a wizard redundant. I yet to fathom how the arcane bond is darn good, so I might be missing something. In order to add stuff to your bond, you still pay for it(just like any other magic item, just at 1/2 price). Am I missing something else there, and I very well might be!?!?

As far as power, the wizard can cast only 4 spells per day at 20th plus their int modifier. As Sorceror at 20 can cast 6 per day plus their charisma modifier. Their only limitation is the 5 known spells per level, and this is not even true because bloodlines add another for 6 now.

It depends on what level you normally play. I notice your example cites a level 20 sorcerer where there is no issue since both classes have leveled up.

At low levels 1-7 this is a "huge" factor for a sorcerer with a limited fixed known spell list.

The 20th level was just for easy processing sake. At low levels, up til around 6th I agree, a wizard was a more useful in 3.5 set because of the early advance in spells, but look what happens after 6th in 3.5, it actually allows for a sorc to become a nuker more so than a wizard. Now, take a look at the additions that these new rules added to the sorc, and tell me the rolls are not reversed to some extent. In addition, now the sorc doesnt even need to depend on a prestige class, its all inclusive. The same can not be said for the wizard.

I dont know, maybe im just being blind. To me, it just seems to be more ascued towards the sorc now.

Grayhorse wrote:

I dont see a real reason to play the wizard now. Yes a wizard can cast all spells while the sorceror is limited...

Actually, you've just shown us why the Wizard class was and still is way more powerful than the Sorcerer: his spellbook.

For example, I recently had a scenario where the party led a group of island natives against an evil fortress. I used Hallucinatory Terrain to make the surrounding area like itself while I used Move Earth to fill in their trenches, then I dismissed the Hallucinatory Terrain for the assault. I followed up with some Summon Monster VIIs to make some Earth Elementals to take out the fortress's gate.

I'd like to see a Sorcerer do that. Where Wizards can prepare the perfect solution to a problem, Sorcerers have to settle for applying the same solution to every problem.

-Matt

Matt,

I dont believe I have. You seem to think that having access to the spells in some ways makes them more powerful. IN truth, it doesnt, because they are still limited to the number per day on what they can cast, it only makes them a little more universal to situations. You are adding a huge amt of flavor to the sorceror(which like i said before, is a good thing), while trying to repackage something that isnt so powerful. The arcane schools are not powerful, sorry but they are a joke. Plus with the arcane schools, you are now limited with what it says you can have for spells. Granted, another post here says that could change in beta, but for now we will have to wait for that. When you add new spells at 3rd, 5th, etc for sorc, you add bloodline powers and also bloodline feats, you are increasing the sorc power exponentially. A wizard gets 4 new feats, well now your giving a sorc 3. You are also now giving 5 new powers(dont have rules in front of me, but i think it was 5) to the sorc, with no new powers to the arcane school, just spells(and some arent even useful) magehand for universalist anyone? All im saying, is while they have given alot of flavor love to the sorc, they have not to the wizard. A revamp of the schools would be a useful thing to bring them up to where the sorc is going is all im saying.

A note here.....having access to the multitude of spells does not equate to power, when 1; a wizard must rest for 8 hours to change spells, 2; must lug a spell book around thats easilty destroyed if not careful, 3; still prohibited from 2 schools without penalties, 4; given second rate abilities from the schools they have chosen to go into(other than necro).

Another poster talked about the bonded item and going arcane archer. Ok, while he is right this could be a possible nice addition, your still having to take a prestige class to do it. The wizard class is truely not standing alone, its taken a subset like arcane archer, archmage, etc to bring it up....while the sorc is an all in one prestige class wrapped up profession now. Even the fighter class has been ramped up, monk and ranger both have had lovely additions as well. Truthfully, I love alot of the changes made to the classes, its just that it seems to me that the wizard wasnt given the same love(my opinion anyway).

Wizards also get their higher level spells 1 level earlier... that's huge.

Similarly, arcane bond for wizards is pretty darn good, and unavailable to sorcerers that dont have the arcane bloodline.

Its true that it seems that sorcerers have more flavor options, but strictly in terms of power; the wizard is clearly still the better class.

Getting an additional higher level spell 1 level earlier is not huge. With the additions the sorceror is getting, its going to make a wizard redundant. I yet to fathom how the arcane bond is darn good, so I might be missing something. In order to add stuff to your bond, you still pay for it(just like any other magic item, just at 1/2 price). Am I missing something else there, and I very well might be!?!?

As far as power, the wizard can cast only 4 spells per day at 20th plus their int modifier. As Sorceror at 20 can cast 6 per day plus their charisma modifier. Their only limitation is the 5 known spells per level, and this is not even true because bloodlines add another for 6 now. A wizard with the evocation, abjurer, etc will still have 10 to 12 spells they cant cast without losing their arcane powers, leaving them with anywheres from 25 to 30 spells, and not all of them are even used in most games, so now limited more by the game they are in. To the dm's here, what is one of the big staple spells a wizard would cast and 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th. Well, with this staple spell taken, now they are at 3 random(and most wizards take 2 of these spells). And like another player eluded too before you, the school powers or special abilities really are not that hot anyway(with maybe the exception being the necro). SO pound for pound, more flavor has been added to the sorceror. The additional bloodline powers are somewhat over powering when you compare them level to level against a wizard(in my opinion). And like I said earlier, I dont want to see the sorc changed, because I do like the changes I saw. I just want to see some of the same love to wizard so that players will still play.

As for the +2 to dc, that could have been a house rule we pulled from an earlier rules set to make them more interesting to play, cant remember. IM getting old what can I say.

As far as players in your campaigns(referring to another post sorry) not being willing to play sorcerors as they were in 3.5, we never had an issue with that, so I cant speak from there. See, in our campaigns, I made wizards carry their books or travel books, and as a DM, I would make them open game for being attacked too. ITs what any intelligent being would do to cut the wizards spells away from him. Thats why they played sorcerors as this couldnt happen.

Dont get me wrong guys, I dont want to cause issues, just dont want to see imbalance is all.

Ok, this may have been talked about already, and im not seeing it but I think there is a power balance issue between the 2 classes with what you folks have done. Below are my reasonings:

When a wizard takes a specialty class(ie abjurer, necro, etc...) he is required to drop 2 classes of spells that he can no longer cast. However, this is really forcing the character into being a specialty class for any real type of bonus. The universal powers are ok, but just do not really offer a whole lot in the way of increased power to the mage. ITs a bait a switch tactics. And yes I know this is the same as 3.5, but i 3.5 the wizard also got a +2 to dc for the cast ability of that school and rec'd bonus spells that they could choose, not something assigned as per these rules.

The sorceror is totally revamped. Dont get me wrong, I like the changes with the addition of bloodlines, but with them added, I dont see a real reason to play the wizard now. Yes a wizard can cast all spells while the sorceror is limited, but the sorc has had bonus spells added at levels too that go into their spell list. WHile its not an additional spell persei, it is a new spell they can cast without having to take a spell slot up. In addition, the sorc gains wonderous powers and also gains new feats(similar to the wizard). The only real loss the sorc is now taking, is he is limited to 5 known spells. While this is limiting, its not an overburden with the additions that have been made. Example, draconic bloodline getting breathweapon that is d6 per level up to 3 times per day at level 17. thats 17d6(can we say wow). Most campaign settings allow players to do lots of resting, which now makes this an very over powered ability. Look at elemental and its bonus spells gained as another example. If a wizard takes a specialist school of say evocation, they are now going to pick 2 schools which can be any wheres from 8 to 12 spells that they can no longer cast either without penalties. I know im rambling some, sorry on this.

The wizard class to me now seems to be more penalized than the sorceror. The only way to not, is to be generalized, and then there is no beginning special skills til he reachs level 20 when he can than have the +2dc. By level 20, this is not a major boon because all casters are going to be good on dc's from magic increases to stats and items. In addition, other than the necromancy path(as a friend pointed out to me last night) the powers of the specialist mage are not exactly over powering, while the sorceror bloodlines allow for some very nasty additions.

I think in order for more players to want to chose, there needs to be some underlying changes made to the wizard schools and class. A good start as we discussed(my friends and I last night) is the readdition of the +2dc for the type of spells. The next addition is a little more hard to discern. We threw around dropping the prohibited schools alltogether(with some much heated discussion). We also discussed the readdition of 1 spell per 2 levels in addition for the specialist wizard. Ie, an addition 1st level evocationalist would gain a +1 to 1st level spells in the evocation art. The only issue we came up with doing this, is how do you add to the generalist wizards? another thought was to allow specialist wizards to be able to use their maximize, empower, etc without the negatives. example, a 1st level evocationist wizard could empower his 1st level burning hands without the increase to spell levels on the spell. Mind you, these are all just thoughts.

Right now though, with the way the 2 classes are setup, your not going to find alot of players willing to go wizard. The sorceror just has to many better options available to it. What are you alls thoughts on this?