Funnythinker's page

Funnythinker wrote:

The Contrarian wrote:

WatersLethe wrote:

Pretty much everyone wants a Shifter class that is a martial focused on shapeshifting.

I hope to never see a Shifter class in 2e. >8D

Might I ask why? was it due to bad experience or something?

their username is The Contrarian. I think that MAY have something to do with it. Possibly

that's fair , i just wanted to double check to see if they had experience that altered their view.

WatersLethe wrote:

Pretty much everyone wants a Shifter class that is a martial focused on shapeshifting.

I hope to never see a Shifter class in 2e. >8D

Might I ask why? was it due to bad experience or something?

I’ve enjoyed hearing Grotle’s and Bust R Up’s thoughts, and even the seven people in that comment who perhaps are frustrated, I honestly just feel thankful to them and I appreciate their contributions to the discussion.

Upon reflection, I realize I could have phrased things better. Tone doesn’t always carry well online, and my earlier comments were meant in a general, abstract sense—not directed at anyone personally. Still, the wording wasn’t ideal, and I apologize to anyone who felt offended.

Now that that’s cleared up, I really like the ideas that Water and Mooshers suggested. A combination of their approaches seems like a solid compromise. How do you all feel about a shifter who uses untamed forms, or would you prefer a more traditional werewolf-style morph? Personally, I think modifying the untamed form shapes—just without spellcasting—could be a cool direction. I still want forms to be part of the identity, but honestly, any improvement would be welcome.

mosher for example his last post seemed like a most reasonable modification even if I would go farther . it would be unfair for me to not give credit to a good set of ideas

I’ve enjoyed hearing Grotle’s and Bust R Up’s thoughts, and even the seven people in that comment who perhaps are frustrated, I honestly just feel thankful to them and I appreciate their contributions to the discussion.

I think people who push the “versatility is power” argument are really just projecting their own aesthetics and values onto everyone else. Versatility can be powerful, sure—but only up to a point. If a class is versatile but ends up doing less than half the damage of a dedicated martial at higher levels, or gets out‑healed by something like a Warpriest, then that versatility stops being a strength and starts being a liability.

There’s a threshold where “I can do a bit of everything” turns into “I’m worse at everything than the specialists around me.” At that point, the class isn’t overshadowing anyone, everyone else is overshadowing you. And that feels bad. Players want to play the style they enjoy and still feel like they’re contributing meaningfully to the party.

People love to white‑knight for the Fighter, but who’s showing up to defend the Druid when they’re struggling to keep up? Versatility shouldn’t mean being left behind.
PF2e is designed so every class should feel useful and relevant. If a class’s toolkit leaves them consistently underperforming compared to specialists, that’s not healthy balance. Boost my boi to were he should be.

I think they really need to find a way to make Untamed good enough. I don’t mind Shifter either, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t fix Untamed. Wild Shape should scale properly, players should have meaningful choices of forms, and runes should work with them—at least some of them. They could easily take a page from the Moon Druid.

In 2024 D&D, the druid (after losing infinite HP) is weaker than a fighter, but they can keep up by spending spell slots and still having access to some spells while in form, so they can mix things up. When you’re out of spells, you’re basically a weak martial in that system too, but the gap isn’t nearly as bad.

PF2e is better in that you have more forms to choose from. D&D even got rid of elemental forms, which annoyed me, so that’s one point in PF2e’s favor. I like that PF2e gives you cool form options—I just want those forms to be more viable, especially at higher levels.

I am your villain now—bwahaha! I want a truly strong, untamed druid and a powerful druid base class, and I’m not apologizing for it.
People keep preaching ‘balance’ while ignoring the full power budget of every other class, then insisting druids must stay weak simply because they have spellcasting. That’s such an unimaginative take. What’s next—arguing that wizards should be terrible because they have versatility?

Meanwhile, everyone conveniently overlooks the unique features and abilities other classes get. There’s a reason druids consistently land in B‑tier at best in most rankings. They need buffs

druid design would be to introduce a structural split similar to the Warpriest and Cloistered Cleric distinction. Providing two clearly defined paths—one emphasizing martial capability and the other emphasizing spellcasting—would allow players to intentionally choose the role they want to excel in. This avoids forcing a single baseline that inevitably leads to circular debates about what druids “should” be good at.

1. Druids Already Carry Unique Restrictions
Druids operate under anathema and are bound to protect nature. These thematic constraints limit their behavior in ways other classes do not experience. It is logical, then, that they should receive compensatory mechanical strength. A class with additional narrative burdens should not also be mechanically underpowered.
2. Their Identity Is Built on Being a Force of Nature
The druid fantasy is not that of a mild generalist. It is the image of someone who channels storms, commands beasts, and reshapes the battlefield. A class with such a strong thematic identity should have the mechanical tools to express that identity
3. Versatility Requires Meaningful Specialization
Druids are inherently flexible, but flexibility without specialization leads to mediocrity. By offering distinct paths—martial-focused and spell-focused—the class can preserve its versatility while still allowing players to excel in their chosen role.

Funnythinker wrote:

I'm actually well aware of how powerful spellcasting is—probably more than you think. I just think it's a bad reason to try to nerf an order. If Swashbuckler and Investigator are weak, then they need a tune‑up; the answer isn’t to drag Untamed down. was your question actually serious? The argument of “they should suck so I feel better” is the worst. If you’re too weak, seek remedies—don't seek to down other classes.

This isn't a 'they should suck' this is a '(remastered) swashbuckler is the gold standard of balanced martial power' and 'investigator is roughly where martial with heavy out of combat investment is' which is where a untamed order druid who never uses spells in combat should be, logically.

Maybe investigator could be bumped up a bit but if you try to get everything chasing fighter highs that's just asking for power creep and isn't going to be particularly healthy or fun. PF2eR Rogue was a mistake, for instance. It's not like I'm asking for a nerf to Untamed, I've actually suggested several buffs - I just want to be clear that the buffs should not be with an eye to make them match fighter, because fighter is very close to being a mistake even with them getting nothing else and druid chassis does not qualify as 'nothing else'

A druid’s unique strength is their versatility, they can do everything. But if they try to do everything at once, they end up doing all of it poorly. That’s why focusing on specific druid orders should meaningfully reward players by making them better at the role they choose. Instead of punishing druids simply because they have access to spells, the design should encourage synergy between their spellcasting and their chosen role.

Druids also deserve a stronger baseline. They carry anathema restrictions and are expected to protect nature, so it makes sense that they should be more powerful than the average adventurer. Their identity is tied to being a force of nature, not a watered‑down generalist.

Funnythinker wrote:

And just to be clear, I’m not asking for the Druid to overshadow the Fighter. I want the Druid to be competitive, not dominant. If the Fighter is outputting around 80, the Druid should reasonably be able to hit something like 65. Right now, it feels more like Fighter 80 vs. Druid 40, and that gap is simply too wide. and in fact not balanced

Serious question: where do you think Swashbuckler or Investigator lands on that scale? Because the Fighter is slightly ovetuned and very easy to optimise, but the druid needs to not overshadow all martials.

(And like... you really cannot underestimate how much having access to the entire primal list, for free, does to the druid. The tricky part is unlike the animist you can't doublecast your best buffs with shapeshifting at the same time - I should mention Floating Flame as an otherwise very useful prebuff - but even then you're the one who gets free access to casting Mass Haste to start the battle, for instance) [/QUOTEI'm actually well aware of how powerful spellcasting is—probably more than you think. I just think it's a bad reason to try to nerf an order. If Swashbuckler and Investigator are weak, then they need a tune‑up; the answer isn’t to drag Untamed down. was your question actually serious? The argument of “they should suck so I feel better” is the worst. If you’re too weak, seek remedies—don't seek to down other classes.

No, it IS a balance issue. It really and truly is.

Lets say you make some MAJOR surgery to the druid class with the goal that, when it spends ALL of its spells, it is good as a martial in combat. You are a game design superstar and achieve this wonderfully.

But spending ALL of its spells so that it as good as a martial is fundamentally just creating a martial shifter class (which I think everybody on this thread agrees would be a great thing)

So, you instead design it so that the druid has options. Spend all spells, be as good as a martial, spend no spells and be something like where the druid is now, spend some and be somewhere in between.

That is too strong, although possibly not game breakingly so. On whatever granularity you're allowing (PFS session, game, encounter, round) you make your decision as to whether you're a spell chucker or a melee combatant or some mix of the two.

That means that you're a spell chucker when that is advantageous, a melee when that is the best thing.

I play PFS so I'll use an example of how this is problematic.

If I sit down at a table with martials and no healer and/or no blaster then I play my druid as a spell chucker. If the table has a cleric and a sorcerer then I play it as a martial. Even if the granularity is at the character day or PFS session level then I get to choose between 2 characters.

Versatility IS power. Its not as obvious as doing an extra 12 points of damage or being +2 to hit but it IS power. A lot of versatility translates to a lot of power.

The best example of this in the current game is probably the kineticist. It is very easy to create a versatile kineticist. They can melee, they can use ranged combat, they have some AoE damage, they have some control, they can tank, they can heal. It is even possible to do ALL of these on the same character at level 1.

They are significantly behind characters dedicated to any one of the above, somewhat behind more general characters who can do 1 or 2 of the above. But that reduction in power...

Actually, I can take the point even further: versatility is power, and it’s not difficult for martial classes to pick up extra utility through archetypes. By comparison, it’s much harder to meaningfully improve the Untamed Druid’s performance. A martial character can patch their weaknesses depending on the martial some have almost no cost choice.

And just to be clear, I’m not asking for the Druid to overshadow the Fighter. I want the Druid to be competitive, not dominant. If the Fighter is outputting around 80, the Druid should reasonably be able to hit something like 65. Right now, it feels more like Fighter 80 vs. Druid 40, and that gap is simply too wide. and in fact not balanced

Funnythinker wrote:

It’s also important to remember that, despite the criticism some players have for 3.5, Pathfinder 1e was built on that foundation—and PF1 was generally more popular than PF2e. A major reason for that popularity was the wider range of playstyles it supported.

?

PF1 was notorious for how poorly it supported a huge variety of playstyles, even ones that it pretended were legitimate options. PF1 was very popular, but definitively not for this reason.

It would be dishonest to imply that people didn’t enjoy some of the power‑fantasy flavor that existed in PF1 and was represented better to some degree. If people truly preferred flat class abilities with little room for different playstyles, then 4E would have performed better.

I think part of the problem is no matter what you do the druid will always be a full spellcaster. So untamed CAN'T be as good in melee as a pure martial class, because all of a martial class goes into their melee (in this case), and the druid will have a secondary option even if they otherwise invest entirely into being a melee shapeshifter, so by nature, they need to be a little behind, so that versatility doesn't make them just outright better. Its a VERY narrow space to try and get a balance right in.

Sure they can. It’s not a balance issue, it’s a bias issue. Some people just don’t like the aesthetic of a melee druid performing well becuase they feel it steps on martials toes. Druids can do damage, just usually at range. Some people here want to limit options for aesthetic reasons, which is fine — but don’t pretend it’s about balance. Otherwise you’d be calling the ranged option busted too.

And once again, I never asked for them to be better than the fighter — just competitive, which they aren’t at the moment. I do agree with Paul that at lower levels it feels more properly scaled but if it scaled all the way to top level, I’d feel like it was in the right place.

The paradigm needs to shift so that more playstyles are actually viable. Take the 5e Moon Druid as an example: it’s nowhere near the old 3.5 “CoDzilla,” yet people react to it as if it were. Because some players had bad experiences with 3.5’s extreme caster power, they overcorrect and insist that anything resembling that level of flexibility must be kept subpar. In doing so, they miss the forest for the trees.

The goal should be to broaden viable options, especially when non‑casters can now reach mastery‑level spellcasting through multiclass archetypes. With that in mind, I still believe the base druid should have access to mastery‑level strikes.

It’s also important to remember that, despite the criticism some players have for 3.5, Pathfinder 1e was built on that foundation—and PF1 was generally more popular than PF2e. A major reason for that popularity was the wider range of playstyles it supported. Some players today seem almost traumatized by 3.5 and see shadows where there are none. Instead of looking for balanced ways to support diverse builds, they focus on flavor restrictions and limiting player choice.

A few people have openly said they don’t want the druid to be stronger, but the majority of players—and most tier lists—agree that druids are currently underpowered compared to other classes. A touch‑up isn’t just reasonable; it’s needed. They want druids to “stay in their lane,” but they forget that the druid’s lane has always involved stepping into other lanes. Gary Gygax himself described the druid as essentially half‑wizard, half‑cleric, with wild shape added for additional variation. That was the original concept.

Yes, the druid may have become too strong in 3.5, but the real issue wasn’t that it could compete with the fighter—it was that it could outperform the fighter without much effort. With proper investment, Untamed Order should be able to compete with a fighter, not be relegated to doing half the damage even after twelve feats of investment. That isn’t balance; that’s making the fighter the overpowered one. When a fighter can deal double the damage without expending resources, while the druid’s claws fall behind, something is off.

Funnythinker wrote:

pauljathome wrote:

Funnythinker wrote:

Untamed druids must invest in Strength just to meet the requirements for their +2 bonus, which means they won’t have spell DCs as high as other orders.

This is just false. A druid can easily start with +3 Str, +4 Wis and keep both Str and Wis maxed out. If they grab heavy armor proficiency then they don't even really need Dex so they can even branch out into either (or both) Cha and Int if they want.

There are issues with druids but being MAD is NOT one of them.

I think they should be required to make sacrifices to be good at melee, or they should stay as they are and still be able to cast spells in form. That’s hardly anything radical. Saying my thoughts are “false” Just because I value different things in an Untamed Order build. Maybe you could consider that not everyone builds exactly like you, and some people want their own flavor of fantasy represented in the game. So maybe keep that in mind instead of yucking people’s yums.

I claimed that your statement that a druid who invests in Str means they won't have spell DCs as high is false. Because it demonstrably is.

Now, if you meant (as another post of yours seems to imply) that a druid can't maximize ALL of Str, Con and Wisdom then yeah, you're right. But that isn't what you said.

At level 1 it is trivially possible to have Str +3, Con +2, Wis +4, +1 somewhere else, -1 somewhere else (most likely Cha or Int).

Now, that character either has to put that +1 in dex or has some significant issues until L3 when they can pick up heavy armor proficiency.

I've said many times in this thread that I agree that druids need some melee help. But I will maintain that the help they require is to broaden the levels and circumstances where wild shape is a good option. In the right circumstances (L10 or L12 Plant form in an area large enough to grow) it is already good enough or arguably more than that. So, ANY changes should NOT improve Wild Shape at those...

Of course you can disagree. Also, yams have a lot of vitamin A. I’m just asking you to consider other points of view, and a few of your ideas aren’t bad even if we disagree on where things should land.

Funnythinker wrote:

Pick a lane—either they’re full casters and should be able to cast in form, or their melee damage should be better.

Their melee damage should be better. Some limited casting in form is OK, but they need to be more viable in melee.

Sorry about that I pressed the wrong button on reply I was replying to Paul. generally, I agree with you and we on the same side.

Funnythinker wrote:

Untamed druids must invest in Strength just to meet the requirements for their +2 bonus, which means they won’t have spell DCs as high as other orders.

This is just false. A druid can easily start with +3 Str, +4 Wis and keep both Str and Wis maxed out. If they grab heavy armor proficiency then they don't even really need Dex so they can even branch out into either (or both) Cha and Int if they want.

There are issues with druids but being MAD is NOT one of them.

I think they should be required to make sacrifices to be good at melee, or they should stay as they are and still be able to cast spells in form. That’s hardly anything radical. Saying my thoughts are “false” Just because I value different things in an Untamed Order build. Maybe you could consider that not everyone builds exactly like you, and some people want their own flavor of fantasy represented in the game. So maybe keep that in mind instead of yucking people’s yums.

pauljathome wrote:

Funnythinker wrote:

Untamed druids must invest in Strength just to meet the requirements for their +2 bonus, which means they won’t have spell DCs as high as other orders.

This is just false. A druid can easily start with +3 Str, +4 Wis and keep both Str and Wis maxed out. If they grab heavy armor proficiency then they don't even really need Dex so they can even branch out into either (or both) Cha and Int if they want.

There are issues with druids but being MAD is NOT one of them.

It is false because they only get their +2 bonus on a couple of levels anyway.

If you want the +2 bonus, you need to max your Strength. You also need Constitution, because you won’t survive without it. You’re not going to max Wisdom, Constitution, and Strength all at once unless you’re fine with getting clapped. If you’re building for melee, it’s extremely hard to max both your offensive and defensive stats. You also don’t benefit from armor while shifted, which makes Constitution even more important.

To get that +2 at certain levels, you still need your Strength maxed—along with fully upgraded handwraps. And if you’re using Form Control, you’re going to need the extra HP. Unless we’re playing a different game, that’s just how the numbers work. If your reply is “Form Control sucks,” then that only reinforces my point: it needs help, which pushes the build even harder toward Constitution.

What I find strange is that you don’t seem to want them to be good at melee. Pick a lane—either they’re full casters and should be able to cast in form, or their melee damage should be better. You can’t argue both ways at once.@ pauljathome ment to reply to you not gortle. you trying to summon the fire eh lol

If we're calling Druid a "bad class" because its Focus Spells (among some of the best in the game even when their scaling falls a LITTLE bit off a max rank DAILY RESOURCE) then Wizard must be complete dogwater.

It's a 3-slot Legendary caster whose Focus Spells (up to three every 30 minutes at most, need I remind you) on average are close to the same power level as a max rank spell slot (a daily resource, need I remind you). It's not just "a few orders with a good Focus Spell". Nearly every order has a good option (even if you're like Wave and have to wait to grab it). Your defenses equal out to other non-cloth casters at later levels, but the early levels were always a garnish. There's a good Mathfinder video on the topic, actually.

Untamed Form is poor at scaling for the same obvious reasons that battle forms in general are poor at scaling (because it's literally all of them in one, potentially). I'm personally in favor of rewriting all the Form spells to have scaling for every rank because the silly stepladder nature they currently hold irritates me. I also wouldn't hate it if the feat taxes were severely cut back. It feels like you have to invest even more than an Animal Companion to keep Untamed Form relevant sometimes, and that's even taking into account a player that understands that it's not meant to be your bread-and-butter playstyle.

I don't necessarily think a Class Archetype a-la Battle Harbinger couldn't help fulfill the Wild Shape-primary Druid fantasy. It certainly worked for the Cleric, so it could absolutely do it well for Druid. Wave casting is a hell of a power restriction, as many Magi and Summoners know, so it...

Mathfinder makes several solid observations, including the point that druids seem to have missed some of the mechanical touch‑ups other classes received in the Remaster. He also notes in another video that wizards ultimately gain the most spell slots through their class features, so they aren’t really part of this comparison. The issue for druids is that they simply have fewer spell slots overall, and unlike clerics or bards they don’t get a healing font or performance‑based support to offset that limitation. That leaves a real gap in their overall power budget.

Mathfinder also has a blind spot: many of the features that make druids strong can be replicated by other classes through archetypes with only a small investment. Even druid focus spells—one of their signature advantages—are surprisingly easy for other classes to pick up. When a class’s defining strengths can be copied so easily, the base class needs something more substantial to maintain its identity and value.

A reasonable way to strengthen druids without breaking balance would be to enhance each order more meaningfully once a player invests in several order‑specific feats. This would reinforce class identity and give druids something that can’t be duplicated through archetyping.

This is especially important for the Untamed Order. Untamed druids must invest in Strength just to meet the requirements for their +2 bonus, which means they won’t have spell DCs as high as other orders. Meanwhile, the Stone and Storm Orders can at least stay competitive in damage—resource‑intensive, yes, but still viable. Untamed doesn’t have that same ability to keep pace. When a subclass requires extra ability scores, extra feats, extra action costs, and still lacks an additional class feature to compensate, it’s reasonable to expect a meaningful payoff. That’s basic equivalent exchange: if you invest more, you should get more.

Strengthening the orders—especially Untamed, would help druids feel more rewarding to play and bring them in line with the improvements other classes received.

wave order has cool themes but could use something a bit more iconic. some of the feats for these orders are not as good as they should be.

Historically druid has been a medium bab class as well , when I think of this it makes sense that they should have a bit better melee accuracy then a wizard.

ScooterScoots wrote:

I wouldn’t say battle harbringer worked as a martial cleric. It’s probably the worst class in the game. It’s basically a magus with a worse spell list that swaps out spellstrike for the worst martial damage boost gimmick known to man. Even if you can manage to get the crit fish gimmick going (after many action taxes!) the very fact you did so means that you already crit the enemy a bunch of times, not the circumstances under which you most need a damage boost - being able to win harder doesn’t stop you from losing.

FWIW Druid already baked in a better mechanic for a wavecaster martial version, that being the weird +2 status bonus they can't hit by themselves. Change the KAS to Str and give them martial progression (somehow, because unlike clerics they don't have doctrines to let them rip off existing proficiencies and replace them) and you now have an effectively fighter statline (that works less well with bards but shhh). Give a 1/encounter ability to cast untamed form + another 2-action spell for 3 actions so they can prebuff or drop chain lightning, their choice.

And some other feats that probably any untamed order should get, like feats to scale form spells that aren't updating (probably need to pen it in per individual spell given how there's no terminology for 'heighten levels that do nothing') and feats to keep yourself at a medium size.

That’s actually the best take I’ve heard you say. Hats off to you, sir — that was genuinely thoughtful and an interesting suggestion. Also, I apologize for when I get a bit fiery.

Not a terrible idea honestly. It'd keep untamed form in line with the other druid Focus Spells in keeping close to a max rank slot. Even if the max rank slot in question is more for fun versatility than raw power, it's a good stopgap solution for those who aren't too futzed with trying to go primarily shapeshifted.

Primarily shapeshifted should have more options too it doesn't need to be black and white.

It shouldn't fall behind Sorcerer but they are busted.

Funnythinker wrote:

at lower levels, Untamed is close to where it should be. The problem shows up at higher levels,

I agree with this, and its a huge part of why I think the solution is a shifter class as opposed to tweaks to the druid.

At higher levels spells become more and more useful, partly for combat but especially for utility.

Its just really, really, really hard (if it is possible at all) to let a legendary L20 primal caster have ANYTHING more in its kit without making it overpowered.

Thank you for being respectful — I really appreciate that. I just want it to scale as well at higher levels as it does at lower ones, and I’d like more clarity on how the runes are intended to work. It’s interesting because some people think druid is overpowered, but to me it actually feels like it could use a slight buff. People especially seem to think Untamed is some kind of monster coming to steal the fighter’s medals.

here are some suggestions
Make the Untamed Order’s +2 Bonus Always Apply if your strength is high enough.
The current conditional +2 bonus
To keep things balanced, the bonus could scale through the Untamed feat tree rather than being fully front‑loaded.
Add a Strength Requirement for the Improved Feat
If the Untamed Order gets a stronger or always‑on bonus, tying the upgraded version to a high Strength requirement helps maintain balance. It also reinforces the order’s identity as the physically dominant, druid.
This prevents low‑investment casters from dipping into the order for free power while rewarding characters who commit to the theme.
Add Size Options and Let Forms Scale.
One of the biggest frustrations with Wild Shape is that you can’t stay in your favorite form as you level. If you love being a bear, you should be able to be a bear at level 15 without falling behind beyond reason.
Let players keep a beloved form throughout their career
Support the fantasy of mastering a single primal shape if that is what they like
This doesn’t break balance; it simply keeps Wild Shape relevant.
Allow Runes to Apply When They Logically Should
Wild Shape currently blocks many runes, which creates a noticeable power drop at higher levels. Allowing certain runes to function would help druids keep pace
Potency runes: Represent your magical power flowing through the form
Elemental runes (e.g., Flaming): Make sense for natural attacks that can carry elemental energy through the druid's elemental power
This keeps Wild Shape competitive without overshadowing martial classes.

Funnythinker wrote:

Ya i just think your thinking is wrong. why cant a legendary caster channel their spells into doing ok melee? then can do it at range with spells. this is what im talking about with the gatekeeping .

Because... we had two editions of seeing what happens when a fullcaster is capable of buffing themselves to be as good in melee as a dedicated melee person, it's called CoDzilla, it was fun for very few people.

Like. If you want to sacrifice enough to be a full martial, you need to... be a new class from scratch. There's no way around that. I guess you could also be, IDK, battle harbinger but druid, though I'm not sure if the class archetype framework can accommodate it since druids don't have doctrines to let them mess with weapon proficiency.

It's not gatekeeping to say something you're asking for is broken based on past references.

I’m not asking for anything game‑breaking. I’m only suggesting a few small adjustments—nothing that would disrupt balance or give anyone an unfair advantage. All I want is for these mechanics to work consistently with the rest of the game’s systems, like frost and fire runes ect, and for the accuracy to be tuned slightly so the abilities feel reliable.

Druid overall could use a few touch ups.

Funnythinker wrote:

I actually think dnds current moon druid is a good example fighters is much better in melee then moon druid but by using resources you can compete and even spike ahead sometimes ,after a few battles you will run out of spell slots and the fighter keeps going 24 /7 but even without spells the druid can do ok

First I want to thank you for making the effort of apologies and making less belligerent posts.

Unfortunately, what you describe above is the basis for the infamous 15-minutes adventuring day that PF2 tries very strongly to avoid.

The Fighter (strongest Martial in PF2 and which should not be used as a basis for comparison BTW) being able to do it 24/7 does not matter if the whole party stops adventuring until daily preparations just so that the casters (here the Untamed Druid) get their daily resources back.

First off, thank you for keeping things respectful. I know I can get fiery when someone comes at me with a certain energy, so I appreciate your tone. Let me put it this way: at lower levels, Untamed is close to where it should be. The problem shows up at higher levels, where runes start popping off and accuracy starts to fall off a bit too much. If Untamed forms could benefit from added damage runes, it might land exactly where it needs to be—but right now it’s unclear which runes, if any, actually apply to Untamed Form.

I’m also a strong advocate for accuracy. Being weaker is fine, but missing four attacks in a row is miserable, and it’s hard to explain just how bad that feels in actual play. A build can be flavorful and balanced without forcing players into that kind of frustration.

Funnythinker wrote:

I actually think dnds current moon druid is a good example fighters is much better in melee then moon druid but by using resources you can compete and even spike ahead sometimes ,after a few battles you will run out of spell slots and the fighter keeps going 24 /7 but even without spells the druid can do ok

...If you think 5e fighter is better than 5e moon druid that explains a lot actually about your stance.

But no. No, it isn't. 5e moon druid is also CoDzilla (if slightly less so than 3.PF1 due to 5e concentration) and if you never noticed that, well, Paizo can't design around players not using their kit to the fullest (fullest in this case means 'cast spells')

The fact that you think 5e druids are still “CoDzilla” already tells me a lot. Let me break down the difference between using spells to boost your damage and being a strictly better melee combatant. Fighters aren’t designed to be the absolute top in raw damage—they deliver consistent, reliable output and are masters of weapons without spending resources. In 5e, fighters have better accuracy, fighting styles, and weapon mastery. Eventually they get four attacks with a strong magical weapon, and a Moon Druid simply can’t match that.

Wild Shape forms are limited by their stat blocks: many have lower base damage than a fighter’s weapon, many only get two attacks, and you have to burn spell slots just to stay competitive. That’s the trade‑off. Druids stay relevant and bring versatility, but they pay for it with resources and usually lower AC.

You seem to be coming from a Pathfinder perspective, so I’ll forgive the confusion—you’re mixing systems. But don’t act like you “took me down” with some airtight argument. I understand how to use my kit; don’t put us on the same level.

And this is exactly why you think the Untamed order in PF is fine: you’re not actually using the toolset to its full potential. If you didn’t grasp the Moon Druid vs. Fighter dynamic in 5e, it makes sense that you’d misread Untamed balance. I understand the system, which is why I’m asking for slight adjustments to put the Untamed order where it should be.

I actually think dnds current moon druid is a good example fighters is much better in melee then moon druid but by using resources you can compete and even spike ahead sometimes ,after a few battles you will run out of spell slots and the fighter keeps going 24 /7 but even without spells the druid can do ok

Funnythinker wrote:

you are also gatekeeping styles of play rather then looking for balanced solutions.

I think that you are misunderstanding my point.

1) I absolutely think there is room for a shifting based class in the game and I think it could be done well and I'd LOVE to see it.

2) I don't think that the current druid is the correct starting point for that class. The druid is already a good and strong class if it is played as a spellcaster first and a melee combatant second or as essentially a pure spellcaster. There just isn't enough room in its power budget to make it a decent martial at the same time.

3) I think that the main problem with the current druid is that wild shaping is only a decent option at some levels and in some circumstances. I'd like to see changes to extend the levels where it is a decent option and to allow some way for it to be at least moderately decent at high levels when one can NOT grow to huge size.

Tridus's change above goes a long way to expanding the range of levels where wild shape is decent.

Some rule where you can take smaller forms with higher level spells with some modest reduction in damage (modest, not the 2 spell ranks it currently takes) would extend the circumstances in which wild shaping is good.

But pretty much any rule that would improve the wild shaping at the levels where it is already good (eg, L10 and L12 with Plant Shape) would be too much. It would make the druid too powerful. My L10 and L12 druid is already on the border (quite possibly past it) of being too powerful. Being a slightly subpar martial (and I'll only grant it being subpar at those levels when comparing it to one of the good martials built fairly well) when convenient, being able to throw Chain Lightning when convenient, and having a whole host of out of combat utility spells all on one character is just too much.

I'm sorry if I came off as insulting to ya . wasnt my intention I just get heated soemtimes in my expression. I just think that the untamed order should be a bit better then it is and I also think adding a shifter option would be nice
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Funnythinker wrote:

In fact if you try to be a better striker you will pay for it with little reward rather then if you just maxxed wisdom and threw spells.

there should be a way to fuel the spells to boost the forms further that way you are using your spells but are not being strong as a martial for free,

but fueled by consuming more spells or losing some spell slots when you pick untamed order . this would be at least a little better then current.

I dunno how to put it to you, but you're asking for the druid to sacrifice so much that this isn't the druid, this is (at best) a class archetype or, well, the Shifter.

The druid can't stop being a 3-slot legendary spellcaster with easy access to all sorts of good focus spells. That's why people are telling you that forms need to be subpar compared to full martials, since they're stapled to a fullcaster.

Ya i just think your thinking is wrong. why cant a legendary caster channel their spells into doing ok melee? then can do it at range with spells. this is what im talking about with the gatekeeping .

In fact if you try to be a better striker you will pay for it with little reward rather then if you just maxxed wisdom and threw spells.

there should be a way to fuel the spells to boost the forms further that way you are using your spells but are not being strong as a martial for free,

but fueled by consuming more spells or losing some spell slots when you pick untamed order . this would be at least a little better then current.

Tridus wrote:

It only applies if you're using your own attack modifier rather than the forms attack modifier (as usual). ... it does help someone trying to focus in on forms.

Ah, I see. I like it quite a lot. Now all that I have to do is to convince my GM :-)

I do hope they add shifter but they should also fix untamed order and clarify what works with what. I cant take seriously players who claim to care about balance but gaslight as to why it should still be bad. and yes its bad. its the same mentality that, fighter players of wow had being happy feral was awful."go back to healing" attitude

Ill be honest I differ from other players who want untamed too be uncompetitive ,

my stance is there should be a price to play this build but if you fully commit.
I think you should be 90 percent of a martial because that is the fantasy of wild shape .
its not fun if it sucks. should it be stronger then a martial ?

no but it should be a stones throw. lets not forget archetypes amongst other things add a lot to martials in this game ,

its not hard to add magic to a martial either and alot of lower level slots give alot of this versatility .

which is the argument of the opposition to why they don't want it good ,
however I think that is unbalanced .

im also annoyed at the false dichotomy with the other gishes who can cast . the druid is locked out of this during wildshape stop treating it like its a battle cleric. This is a cost ,stop trying to pretend it is not

I don't think any honest person can admit it shouldn't be properly strong unless they admit to their bias of fighter/martial superiority

ya I think they should allow for casting in form or buff up the base forms. If they permit casting in forms they should add some spells for untamed order

Gortle wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

I think the goal is that a battle form gets you 90% of the melee power of a martial with far, far less investment. You can be a druid that ignores strength but turn into a gorilla that still hits just as hard.

The change I'd personally like would to to make Untamed Form a 1-action spell. It feels like right now it just takes a bit too long to get started in combat if you decide to brawl it out, compared to slinging spells. Making it 1-action would allow you to transform, move and strike in one turn.

But it does not get you 90% of the power. It still falls behind dedicated martials in AC, damage and attack value. A few points in each from mid level for just a simple strike ie about 30-50% off there. Then it falls down from the lack of maneuvers and other abilities martials get. One of the major points of PF2 was to stop prebuffing - it costs you actions - so while you have magic options because of the action economy they aren't really that much of a benefit.

When you compare it to just picking up a weapon and hitting with it something which costs you no class resources - note that the druid feats want you to have strength anyway. All you really gain are some special senses , and movement - which you can get from a few items - and reach.

It is a generalist option. It is OK ish. But it is never great. It does not feel good enough.

Then there are all the polymorph rule problems which have been around from the very start. These need to be fixed.

I always struggle to find a moment to actually use battleforms spells outside of flavor reasons. It always seems like there is another spell I can cast and just be more effective. Most parties already have a frontline, it's not like it needs more. It's fairly hard to judge when to use these spells for me.

the problem your missing is you would be stronger with boosting the allready strong orders instead of trying to collect all orders like they are pokemon. dedicated focus to be untamed should reward higher.

Funnythinker wrote:

lets be clear to those who claim untamed shouldn't be competitive. your not accounting for the feat cost if you put every feat into untamed you come up short.

not to mention the action cost of shifting your first turn is down the drain. and you are barred from spellcasting.
I cant take anyone who thinks it should be weak with all those considerations seriously as someone who cares about balance. its actually unbalanced in how weak it is . there is no reason it should be as weak as it is.

The issue is that you're a full spellcaster and that already holds a lot of power. The feats are mostly about versatility. Class choice is still more of an investment than feat choices.

Another point is niche protection, and not wanting spellcasters to step on the toes of martials. I feel the best way to make this work is to just have a class focused on it like everyone else is saying, not to make the already powerful druid also closer in striking power to a martial.

ya that is a problem. it really needs to be addressed . with answers other then it's ok for it to be bad.

Gortle wrote:

It is a generalist option. It is OK ish. But it is never great. It does not feel good enough.

As a generalist option it is exceedingly cheap (1 second level class feat Order Explorer or even just throw money at the problem and buy some scrolls). This lets your Str -1 Gnome have the option of being a reasonably decent melee character (NOT on par with a true martial, but moderately decent) when the situation warrants it. I've got a gnome druid and he only rarely shifts but he does so way more than enough to warrant the 1 feat he has invested in it.

Or you go the other route and invest fairly heavily. Raise Str. Take something like fighter archetype to get Reactive Strike. Maybe martial or some racial weapon proficiency to get access to some better weapons.

This makes your character a decent Gish when NOT shapeshifted, relying mostly on spells but able to go into the front line and do the Strike for one action/Throw a spell for 2 actions routine. And then, when the situation warrants it you turn into a better form (maybe better just because of reach and Reactive Strike, maybe you're at one of the few levels where the +2 status bonus for using your own attacks kicks in).

as you said yourself it doesn't scale properly. that's the problem. your ok at low level your not ok at high level .

I've played both types and been quite satisfied with both. But both absolutely are spell casters first and melee combatants second. Which is why I'd personally LOVE to see a Shifter class. All of my comments on how decent the druid currently is do NOT change the fact that a decent Shifter class would be a wonderful thing to have

Really outside of storm order and stone order, druids are kind of weak compared to the other full casters so it shouldn't be game breaking to allow for untamed to be better.

yes can you please fix polymorph spells so that they scale properly and Clarify rules on what can work with untamed form.

pauljathome wrote:

Funnythinker wrote:

if warrior is rank S in melee it would be fine for druid to be B+. currently its d-. you have to account for the fact it cannot cast while morphed

It is currently very, very far from D-. At some levels it is probably A.

For example (assuming sufficient space) a Str Druid with Plant Shape at L10 has a +20 to hit, a 15 ft reach, and does 2d10+11.

At L12 it has a +24 to hit, a 20 ft reach and does 2d10+16

Now, those 2 specific levels are absolutely chosen to be the best possible levels for a druid. But with those numbers they're pretty much comparable or superior to lots of martials (if you've chosen to go this route you've probably picked up reactive strike or champions reaction).

Except they don't have any of the features and abilities that other martials get to help buff that and they lose the entire first round of combat turning it on.

And that's the absolute best case. The more common cases are not that, and it falls off harder as other martials get more abilities, more features, and more runes.

D- is too low, though. Untamed Druid is definitely above that. It's C level a lot of the time and higher than that when it's good.

Quote:

Druids DO definitely start to fall off a lot at high levels but that isn't important in many campaigns. And by high levels their spells are ruling the game. Oh no, poor me, I'm just a legendary spell caster. Whatever will I do ? :-) :-) :-)

Which is exactly why people want Shifter to exist: because Untamed falls off at high level and the thing that replaces it is "you're a spellcaster again." If you want the wild shape feel as the character concept, you really can't get it for a whole campaign right now.

no they could improve it . lots of room. runes actually working and the forms scaling. you might be ok not making things work, but that's apathetic excuse for not improving design.

If you want it to stay d- they should allow for spellcasting.

demlin wrote:

Druid overall falls into the same bad initial design as war priest. At least war priest was able to cast spells and got buffed via errata.

My guess is that there are enough other orders and strong druid options so no one really cares to play untamed.

I may be an outlier but I love untamed druids. And find them quite effective too. The trick is to make sure that your wild shape is ONE in your bag of tricks, only to be pulled out when the situation warrants it.

Would still love a dedicated shifter martial, mind. IF it was well done. From a very high level perspective I'd expect it to be a little less effective in straight up combat than a normal martial but with lots and lots of situational tricks from wild shape to make up for that small (and it would have to be fairly small) reduction in raw power.

I'd expect the Archetype to be absolute garbage just to make the job of balancing it much easier :-).

I love the concept too but I think people forget that the druid cannot cast while in battle from `so it is not unbalanced for it to be better at its job in melee. if warrior is rank S in melee it would be fine for druid to be B+. currently its d-. you have to account for the fact it cannot cast while morphed

Battle forms need revision and also the ability to choose your size . sucks if you cant shape due to being indoors.

ya exactly. good points. they should make it properly scale on every level.

I think the goal is that a battle form gets you 90% of the melee power of a martial with far, far less investment. You can be a druid that ignores strength but turn into a gorilla that still hits just as hard.

The change I'd personally like would to to make Untamed Form a 1-action spell. It feels like right now it just takes a bit too long to get started in combat if you decide to brawl it out, compared to slinging spells. Making it 1-action would allow you to transform, move and strike in one turn.

The other orders are already stronger because they all stay in caster from.

lets be clear to those who claim untamed shouldn't be competitive. your not accounting for the feat cost if you put every feat into untamed you come up short.
not to mention the action cost of shifting your first turn is down the drain. and you are barred from spellcasting.
I cant take anyone who thinks it should be weak with all those considerations seriously as someone who cares about balance. its actually unbalanced in how weak it is . there is no reason it should be as weak as it is.