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Aotrscommander wrote:

You can't FAIL a stealth check, though, it's just setting a DC; it's not like failing a climb check where you'd immediately fail or UMD or something. (Or to put it this way, I do not constitute "being spotted" as a penalty if doesn't happen immediately.) I, like, I say, have no particular objections to taking 20 on a stealth check when DMing for either PCs or monsters if I think it feasible (like when laying an ambush with plenty of prepatation time). I think of it this way, with a whole party getting into prepared positions, abstracted 1 is the point where someone says "nope, I can see you, Skrath."

The problem with this logic is you have no idea in the take 20 process where the "1" was rolled. It could be right before the enemy shows up and as Skrath aims his weapon and his left butt check gets exposed.

Indulge me if you will...

The good old, “I always find my keys in the last place I looked” is relevant because, well, you don’t keep on looking for your keys once you’ve found them. Likewise, you’re not going to continue trying to unlock a lock once you’ve already unlocked the lock. When you Take 20 it’s going to take, like, well, 20 «units of time». Well, if the characters have the luxury of more than 20 «units of time» that’s a bonus. The main reasons for Taking 20 requiring 20 «units of time» is to a) eliminate the use of Taking 20 during combat and b) to simulate the effort, and of course, it's only possible when the luxury of time exists. Of course, it is somewhat arbitrary. It is an abstract, after all.

When it comes to hiding, well, if you’ve got the luxury of time and someone able to check whether your attempt to hide is effective, then it’s reasonable to presume it will be possible to take 20 on a stealth roll when setting up an ambush. In real life the Section Commander/Plt Sgt/Sgt Major/etc. (depending on the composition of the ambush party) will scout the path the enemy are expected to take and validate if their comrades are indeed hidden. It could be argued that the last person to go into hiding is then key to the stealth roll and in the scenario we've been discussing you’d put the last character behind the wall, where you’re guaranteed to be hidden from (unobservable by) the approaching NPCs.

I guess that doesn't exactly do much for the specifics of the +20/+40 bonus, other than emphasising that the situation is key and that rules only work part of the time.

Each tripwire you placed would have need an engineering roll to place it effectively and then a survival check (hiding items isn't listed under stealth or survival, but it makes sense to me to have it under survival) to camouflage it.

We used an Engineering roll to place the tripwire, didn't think about the Survival/Stealth check (IIRC), but that's a good idea. The NPCs Perception roll (yeay natural 1) didn't come close to the Engineering roll (a total in excess of 20), so it was ruled they didn't spot the trip wire.

Actually, I guess it would be more accurate for me to say "I'm not sure what your GM is doing, but that fight was definitely not built to be a challenge for 7 players."

We had previously encountered similar sized groups of the NPCs, but not on our terms. In those encounters the party had to go away and lick it's wounds after the first one. We did better after the second one, but still not without some impact to the party.

The ambush encounter was our first encounter of the NPCs on our terms.

I should add that those three combat encounters are the only NPC combat encounters we have had.* This is very much a learning exercise/Adventure Path for all of us as far as SF is concerned.

*We did have one ship combat encounter on the way.

Whilst it would be nice to come to agreement on how best to handle the stealth modifiers, what matters most is that we all, GM and Players, have fun. Which we are. We're just a bit, oh, we really should come up with a rule which works well, because, well, we're like that.

I mean, it's not like a surprise round is all that great in the bigger picture. You get a standard or a move, so even if everyone succeeds in hiding (not even close to assured) the best case scenario is your team gets 1 free shot each at flat footed targets. If your team focuses fire, you'll maybe kill one NPC, then it's on to regular initiative.

Seven PCs vs 4 NPCs. Two of the NPCs ceased to be of concern by the end of the surprise round (it's only the next day and my memory is already playing tricks on me, so it may not be +/-1). Favourable initiative scores on the part of the PCs meant the remaining NPCs continued to be flat-footed and ultimately also ceased to be of concern before either of them was able to act, such as move, return fire, or, importantly to the PCs, to raise alarm.

Oh also, Hey! Hi! Another of the players in Kaies group here.

Whilst it was most enjoyable to succeed at the ambush, I agree we need to come to a better understanding of how to manage the bonuses in a way which is both effective at maintaining the essence of what the authors intended, without breaking the system. Also, because anything the PC can do, the NPCs can do, too and, Urk!

One of the concerns expressed at the table was that perhaps capabilities, be they character (feats, class features) or technological, might make things more balanced at higher levels. There's some measure of hope that those more experienced with SF will be able to comment in that regard.

Something we haven't mentioned previously, is that the world in the scenario has an atmosphere which means you can only see 30', even in daylight or with Darkvision.