Flawed's page

Flawed wrote:

How many skills do you need to be good in to have the OoC utility you're asking for? Having combat expertise means you're getting at least 3 per level. Toss in your favored class bonus as a skill for 4 per level and you're at as many as a barb gets. Perception, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Linguistics. Its not like you need the other skills to be useful in combat. Grab additional traits and make em all class skills if you can spare a trait to not grab a +1 will save and the feat. Find the appropriate item to get a +5 modifier and suddenly you have 4 skills all with out of combat purpose with a +18-20 Modifier. DC 30 Diplomacy, Perception, Sense Motive, Linguistic checks are of some value to a party I'm sure. All at the cost of a feat to gain 4 traits instead of 2 and 3 buy points to get 13 INT.

Add in allies aiding your check and you're pushing 38-40 in a five man party depending on other people's builds.

Throw in 5 buy points, play a human and rock the 6 skill points per level you get.

STR 15+2
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 7

Its really not that hard to have a decent number of skills and a well rounded PC if you're willing to have less than an 18 in a starting stat. If you have a 25 point buy go nuts and grab the 18, but less than that and you're hindering yourself in other aspects.

Not convinced. The build parameters are too confined.

Fighters come in all shapes and sizes, some of them not terribly bright others have unshakable willpower.

Also traits is an optional rule not used by many people (I don't use them in my games) and so including them is really only a theoretical way of looking at out-of-combat issues not a practical one.

The Fighter's limited class skills puts him at a -3 compared to other classes when making Diplomacy or Perception rolls. Leaving the fighter the tax of investing in skill feats to be on par with everyone else.

Last time I checked barbarians weren't that good at diplomacy either. Neither are rangers. But I get it. Let's shift focus one more time because someone presented a means of solving what you wanted. Even if the change was to add 4+INT skills I doubt the people asking for so much change now would be happy with the results and would still be making more threads as to why the fighter is the worst.

This again goes back to wasted's comments of why are you trying to make a fighter a social class when it's not a social class and then complain when a means is given because it'll be 3 behind other classes that have it as a class skill. And then of the 4 typical options only one of them has the skills. Seems like fair comparison.

How many skills do you need to be good in to have the OoC utility you're asking for? Having combat expertise means you're getting at least 3 per level. Toss in your favored class bonus as a skill for 4 per level and you're at as many as a barb gets. Perception, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Linguistics. Its not like you need the other skills to be useful in combat. Grab additional traits and make em all class skills if you can spare a trait to not grab a +1 will save and the feat. Find the appropriate item to get a +5 modifier and suddenly you have 4 skills all with out of combat purpose with a +18-20 Modifier. DC 30 Diplomacy, Perception, Sense Motive, Linguistic checks are of some value to a party I'm sure. All at the cost of a feat to gain 4 traits instead of 2 and 3 buy points to get 13 INT. Play a human and grab a bunch of skill focuses and suddenly you're hitting 36 on a few of your skills.

Add in allies aiding your check from a five man party and you're pushing 38-40 or 44-46 with skills you have skill focus in and depending on other people's builds. Maybe other players like the Halfling Aid another bonus and you get even more. Who know's as a real game scenario hasn't even crept into the vacuum of the boards yet.

Throw in 5 buy points, play a human and rock the 6 skill points per level you get.

STR 15+2
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 7

Its really not that hard to have a decent number of skills and a well rounded PC if you're willing to have less than an 18 in a starting stat. If you have a 25 point buy go nuts and grab the 18, but less than that and you're hindering yourself in other aspects.

Again though you represent a small portion of the gaming community. You can't claim your opinion is absolute because a few people agree with you when you're just the vocal part of the community. There's guaranteed a large portion of the community that has very little to do with these boards. I haven't heard anything about fighters being fixed in the upcoming new version only that they were redesigning the rogue.

Paizo designers have never said there is a problem with their product and they won't. Their marketing team would see that no negative publicity is given by the design team as it hurts your own product to tell people you made a bad product.

The problems do exist. They're just not as large in scope as people think they are and playing the proper stats for your class and playing to your classes strengths while using resources to shore weaknesses is the way the system works. What the designers have said and will do so again in future products guaranteed is that they did not design a game for optimizers. They created a game with a large variety of options for players to experience fun how they should choose. If everything had to be the most optimized route we can burn most of the pages of our books and just all play wizards.

The Fighter Class is not a social class. Stop trying to make it what is it not meant to be.

This is all I've ever meant by building a class within its limitations.

I don't pick a fighter and say I want to make a social guy with lots of skills and a good will save. As much as I don't pick a bard magician and say I want to be a wizard. You design a character concept. Your character is going to be those things. You pick a class to fit the character. So if you say I want to play a guy who has lots of feats and understands a variety of combat styles, wears heavy armor, and wields a weapon vs unarmed strikes or something you could grab a fighter. You wanted your guy to know so many skills, but not hurt offense too much so you grab a 13-14 intelligence and now you're pulling 3-5 skills a level maybe 6 depending on your race. No it isn't the fighter giving you this 6th skill, it's the character build which includes the fighter class. Maybe it could've worked with another class if you didn't grab a few feats, but that's now straying from what the fighter can provide.

Flawed wrote:

animemetalhead wrote:

The ONLY use a fighter has for Int is meeting prereqs for Combat Expertise, and a few extra skill points.

"The ONly use a fighter has for Str is meeting prereqs for power attack and a few extra to hit and damage."

I can list off what a stat provides for a class as well.

Every stat has varying levels of necessity based on your class and your build. A fighter struggles with skill points so int has some value to them because of that. It doesn't necessarily mean it has more value than con or strength, but it has value.

I also posted my interpretation on how a fighters stats would be arrayed with str/dex > con/wis > int > cha vs. another poster's version that was the same as a barbarians str > con/dex > wis > int/cha or something like that.

"I can list off what a stat provides for a class as well," this is a fairly condescending comment. It's fairly obvious contributors to this discussion know how stats in the Pathfinder game work without you having to explain it to them.

It's also fairly obvious Animemetalhead is referring to MAD. The fighter class is already lumbered with the dependency of the three physical stats (Str, Dex, Con).

This thread is about ideas that can improve fighter versatility. And removing stat requirements is one way of doing that.

Yes, this thread is about versatility to the fighter class. Maybe the versatility could be coming from your stat array that compliments your class features instead of a need of new class features so you can dump your charisma and intelligence to keep your strength at obscene levels of optimization.

Fighters could use some help as a class. So could players designing balanced PC's.

Why is 3 build points so hard to manage that makes fighters so MAD?

Flawed is arguing stats as a class comparison. It's a failure on its face. The same stats for different classes will outperform the fighter.

He's arguing fighters are great because they can benefit from wearing adamantine full plate...and move normally. And the barbarian can't, despite the fact adamantine isn't affordable until level 8+, and by then the barb's class features are just as good...and they don't stack.

Not to mention mithral's +2 to AC is generally better then adamantine at ALL levels. It doesn't even stack with the fighter's capstone effect, making it MORE useless as time goes on.

And the fighter doesn't move faster in heavy armor...his REDUCTION IN MOVEMENT goes away. Of course, if you're a dwarf, you get this at level 1.
And the barb is moving 40', the ranger is moving 40', and the paladin might be riding Superhorse. The fighter is slogging along at 30'. Movement bonus, where? Oh, right, and the paladin has a spell which does that for him, too, doesn't he?

Weapon Training is not a buff. It equals rage (used every fight) which equals Favored Enemy. The other stuff is situational...that's buffs. And Weapon Training is inherently limited by the weapon, even moreso if you pursue Weapon Spec.

Armor Training is barely a buff. You can get Armor which does basically everything it does (Celestial, Mithral). And if you don't have the Dex, it does not provide you an AC bonus at all.
Contrast with Greater Magical Vestment, Barkskin, Raging Nat armor and dodge bonuses, and a Monk's + to AC as they level. You don't need an uber stat...you just get the AC!

Godless healing is a general feat, and you can't take it with Fighter bonus feats. Surprise! Barbs can take it, too, and rangers and paladins don't need it. Net benefit to fighter = none. Not to mention it's barely as good as a 1/day Cure Serious Wounds...at level 20. Ugh. Renewed Vigor does the same without a restriction of being below half hit points, and can lead to fast healing!

And did we mention barbs have various ways to punch...

I love all the assumption, hostility, and use of logical fallacies to discredit posters on these boards. I never once said fighters are great. I've said on many occasions in this thread that fighters could use a boost to help them compete with other classes.

I know right? Mithrals bonus to AC is awesome at ALL levels. Unless you have a class feature that is in effect by the time you can even afford a mithral suit of armor and your bonus from dexterity doesn't require you buy a suit of mithral. Weird.

So true man. The reduction in movement goes away. Now. Let's run through the logic here. A fighter has a movement speed of 30 while wearing heavy armor because his reduction in movement has gone away. A cleric has a movement speed of 20 while wearing medium or heavy armor because the reduction in movement has not gone away. The result here is....drum roll please... that the fighter will move faster than any other class while wearing heavy armor. A single race does not invalidate this fact because they get a racial feature that does a similar thing that a fighter class feature does.

Or the fighter uses his many feats to set up a means of getting more movement or a better form of movement? 2 fleet feats and the fighter moves as fast as the barb or the ranger and he still has as many if not more feats. These are such minor and petty differences. Depending on your race(any half race/human/suli) can grab the 2-3 feats required to gain flight. The new archetype fighter can get wings. Any class can grab an eldritch heritage feat chain to get wings just fighters can actually spare the feats and still be combat capable. Why are we still walking?

How can you argue that someone else can get armor training by basically getting celestial or mithral armor? So what happens again when the fighter puts on the celestial or mithral armor? Oh right it gets a more substantial dex to ac bonus than any other class that was wearing said armor.

OMG! OMG! OMG! its a general feat so therefore everyone can take it! So now the barb only has 9 more feats left to the fighters 20. What was the problem again?

Did we mention that a fighter will eventually outdo everyone in DPR based on their crit multiplier alone? I can talk end game scenario's too.

I've also said 3 or 4 times in this thread now that I'm not here to compare other classes to the fighter. I was just stating that fighters are contributing members to any party and can be built to do so. It does not matter that another class can cover some facet of what a fighter does. The fighter's entire chassis is it's combat prowess. Weapon Training + Full BAB and you'll always have a means of hitting. Armor Training + Well balanced stats = Higher regular and touch AC than other classes wearing equivalent armor. The fighter will always have more feats than other classes allowing them to try more feat chains both combat and non combat options. This also includes completing chains quicker than other classes to make your combat style viable faster. A fighter will have more ability in armor than other classes including moving full speed in heavy armor which includes being able to use acrobatics to move without provoking, eventually no penalty to skills in heavy armors, the option to wear adamantine armors and keep a good dex to ac bonus.

None of this is great, it just is what it is.

All that said, the fighter is still able to contribute to any party it joins. Even just going 13 int for combat expertise is 3 skills per level. Grab another 1 from favored bonus for 4/level. That's 4 skills you can contribute with. Choose wisely as to what niche you want to jump into. As your character grows you grab a headband or ioun stone of int with new skills you want to add.

Flawed wrote:

Street Performer archetype gets double the gold on a perform check.

What about Elven Alchemists that adventured for 20 years and hit level 18 and then spent 200 years making alchemical items as a full round action. The ability says ANY alchemical item as a full round action as long as you have the materials. Crafting mundane items costs 1/3 the market value. Blightburn Paste has a market value of 5000 GP. You can sell it for 2500 GP. You can make it for 1666.67 GP. 833.33 GP profit every 6 seconds. 8333.30 GP per minute. 499,998 GP an hour. 3,999,984 GP profit in a regular 8 hour work day.

Even just a 100 GP Adamantine Weapon Blanch will net you 240,000 GP in profit a day making them for 8 hours.

IF you flooded the market with that much repeat product, it would greatly reduce demand for it, dropping the price.

The rules state you can MAKE the stuff that fast, no one said anyone or everyone will BUY it.

You could have a very large stockpile of unsaleable goods, at some point, after you make so many..you run out of money to create more, so your business model fails.

With the bard example, it states "makes this much money"
the alchemist just makes the item… still have to fence it.

No one said they wouldn't buy it either. The only rules are that you can sell items at half their market value.

Street Performer archetype gets double the gold on a perform check.

What about Elven Alchemists that adventured for 20 years and hit level 18 and then spent 200 years making alchemical items as a full round action. The ability says ANY alchemical item as a full round action as long as you have the materials. Crafting mundane items costs 1/3 the market value. Blightburn Paste has a market value of 5000 GP. You can sell it for 2500 GP. You can make it for 1666.67 GP. 833.33 GP profit every 6 seconds. 8333.30 GP per minute. 499,998 GP an hour. 3,999,984 GP profit in a regular 8 hour work day.

Even just a 100 GP Adamantine Weapon Blanch will net you 240,000 GP in profit a day making them for 8 hours.

Why do rogues have such low AC?

A level 10 rogue could easily have:

Dexterity +6
Mithril Kikko +2
Buckler +2
Dusty Rose Ioun stone
Ring of protection +1
Amulet of natural protection +1
Dodge feat

Which is a total of 30 AC at level 10 maintaining the level +20 mechanic for rarely getting hit.

I never understand half the remarks people make about rogues. They're a very basic design, just like fighters, to accomplish mundane tasks. Maybe they're underpowered. Maybe they're not as underpowered as everyone claims. If you design a martial character with bad AC the fault is your own for character design and not the class.

I like the historical argument some people are taking along with JJs opinion in the first page about something historical, in a comic, in anything other than an RPG when it comes to playing.... An RPG. Why is this idea any more absurd than a Titan mauler dual wielding greatswords? A ninja having the capability of leaping 100 feet in the air? Spells?

I'll just get back to chanting weird words, contorting my body, rolling up balls of bat guano and hurling fireballs over here. Things are great in my corner of historical reality.

I am sure it has been said, but the rules on customs are only guidelines.

It goes on to note that abilities, and spell effect, and enchantments, should be carefully considered. A constant Bless effect, is not equal to a constant True Strike effect, even though they are both first level spells.

Also, it notes how to estimate these costs, and does not note it as a hard formula.

So, you have to compare this custom magic armor, to existing magic armors, and try to estimate an appropriate price.

The end price is subject to DM approval.

So, in theory, you could have a set of Mithral Celestial Plate armor, but you have to realize custom magic guidelines, are just that.

Guidelines.

Too often I see PCs taking the formula for estimates, and forgetting that is all it is.

An estimate.

So, when it comes to custom magic items, a Mithral Celestial Plate armor, is no different than a Ring of Truestrike, in that they both need DM approval.

The hideous constant true strike item rears it's ugly head again.

The rules of item creation specifically list the duration of spells as a modifier for making constant items. Instantaneous spells don't have a listing and therefore cannot be made continuous. Otherwise I'm getting fire resistance and having a constant fireball effect on all my PCs. Nothing like 10d6 damage in a 30 foot radius that happens every round with no action.

Getting worked up over this is foolish as it's entirely house rule territory, but let's all take a step back and see what we're looking at.

Celestial Armor: (22,500 GP)
AC 9
Max Dex +8
ASF 15%
ACP -2
Is treated as light armor. (Doesn't specify for what so the general term encompasses everything that light armor governs including proficiency)

Mithril Celestial Armor: (26,500 GP)
AC 9
Max Dex +10
ASF 5%
ACP 0
Is treated as light armor.

Benefits: no longer requires any armor proficiency to use as the ACP is 0 and is the penalty applied. Not much else of real note.

Celestial Plate: (25,000 GP)
AC 12
Max Dex +6
ASF 20%
ACP -3
Is treated as medium. (Nothing listed so again a blanket term)

Mithril Celestial Plate: (35,000 GP)
AC 12
Max Dex +8
ASF 10%
ACP 0
Is treated as light for all but proficiency.

Benefits: no longer requires armor proficiency to use as ACP is 0. Can use class features and abilities restricted to light armor. Is only slightly better than celestial armors base model for statistics except the not needing proficiency bit. (3 AC, 5% less ASF, 2 less ACP). You pay 12,500 GP extra for this luxury.

So really how much are those benefits really worth is the big question.

Although, not really anyone's first choice on traits or feats, a wizard could take those two traits for reduced ACP and then grab celestial armor along with the two feats to reduce ASF to 0 as a swift action and be a full casting wizard wearing chainmail with little hinderance and at a third of the cost of bracers AC 8 and actually a higher AC bonus. Unfortunately for those ASF feats you require armor proficiencies as a prerequisite.

Or just don't bother with the traits because you're a wizard and a -2 to hit really means nothing when you target touch AC IF you do need to make attack rolls. So many of the good spells don't require to hit.

Are there any traits that reduce ASF?

Flawed wrote:

K177Y C47 wrote:

Flawed wrote:

Nicos wrote:

Flawed wrote:

Or a dwarf with steel soul, 14 intelligence, favored class into skills, and skill focus? Good saves and skills? Fighters do get 21 feats so it shouldn't be a problem.

15 pt buy

Str > 15
Dex > 13
Con > 12+2
Int > 14
Wis > 12+2
Cha > 7-2

Congratulations. THe Human barbarian now have more skills, better saves and kill things better.

Congratulations. Try using numbers to validate your claims instead of sensationalizing your opinion like everyone else.

Your human has 1 more skill point per level from a racial feature. Less fort and will not to mention no racial bonus to saves and maybe 1 more point of damage with those exact numbers.

Barbarian wins at just about every point but DPS at level 20...

It has been shown time and again sonny, Barbs are literally Fighter+

Barbs are literally a different flavored martial combatant.

"You are only limited by your imagination"

Just about any "fighter guy" idea cna be done better as a barb... the only exceptions are archers and guys who are really good at tripping...

So suddenly the fighter has two niche areas he excels at, but "barbs are literally fighter+".

This is what's known as sensationalism. I see it all the time on these boards when the fix the fighter threads repeatedly come up.

You guys keep saying that the fighter frame needs a fix yet it's the most widely played class there is and on these boards which is the vocal minority of the player base the problem arises due to optimization builds. This isn't in need of a fix. The players need to let go of optimized builds and try new builds. Fighters are effective at high levels as any class is if you build appropriate to your class.

How about we start pumping all our build points into intelligence for barbs and then complain that rage doesn't make up for wanting to play a smart barb?

The real issue here is versatility. A fighter grows in power linearly. At level 1 he attacks things and at level 20 he attacks things really well. Clerics and Wizards and so on grow outward as well as upward. The fact that the class runs out of tricks when "hit it in the face" stops being an option is the problem.

Use some of your 21 feats to be good at melee, archery, combat mobility, utilizing a mount, social events, spend 20,000 and get a carpet of flying that you guide around through verbal communication which is a free action and moves 60-80 feet a round, 7200 for jaunt boots help move around using 5 foot steps to get 15 feet of movement.

If you're running out of tricks because you can't full attack then work on different builds that add versatility. Don't invest heavily into DPR as it only matters to a point. Dealing 500+ damage a round is awesome, but entirely unnecessary as most things don't have that many HP and killing things in a single round shouldn't be your priority.

wraithstrike wrote:

Also, I think many are saying they dont want casters to have cosmic powers.

Semi Phenomenal, nearly cosmic powers please. :)

Iiiiiiiiitty bitty living space.

basically, i think if a wizard should be able to do something godlike, a fighter should be able to do something awesome as well. like cut a mountain in half.

Awesome is something else that's subjective. I think cleaving a mountain in half is ridiculous and that martials can already do awesome things. Standing toe to toe with most creatures is beyond the mortal commoner.

And again still missing the point. He said having a high initiative isn't necessary at low levels and there's an art to reacting where you responded with the absolute statement that there is no art in dying first implying that not going first means death.

How is initiative everything in circumstances where combat closes quickly? Readying an action may waste your turn if the triggering action never happens. Status effects may not even occur. A spell can be shrugged off with a saving throw and even failing it doesn't always affect more than one person. Arguing worst case scenarios will definitely make initiative seem like the best option, but not everything is a worst case scenario.

Multiple classes and archetypes get uncanny dodge and others can easily take combat reflexes entirely mitigating flat footed in a surprise round and beyond for uncanny dodge. Just as circumstantial as your listed examples.

Many defensive buffs are long duration and cast on entering a dungeon. In a 4 man party there may be 2 broad AoE buffs in the first round like haste, BoF, bless, prayer or the like. Many have very little impact on your defenses and others have none.

The comment on losing was based on you saying "no art in dying first". It implies losing.

I've honestly never played a character with a trait or feat boosting initiative and have never struggled. I fail to see value in a huge initiative bonus. Sometimes I'm the last to go in the initiative order and suffer no drastic ill effects nor to the rest of my party. Everything becomes dependent on strategy, positioning, and tactical deployment more than who goes first much like playing chess.

The common fighting man also gets dramatically more powerful along with the caster. The common fighting man increases his number of attacks per round by 300%, his damage increases even more dramatically oftentimes several thousand percent greater without crazy optimization builds, the methods of how you employ combat skills evolve to be able to do it even better. Just as wizards go from casting color spray to prismatic spray.

The problem is that a martial swings a weapon and then swings the weapon in a new method and people visualize both as 'just swinging a weapon'. Then they turn to casters and say a caster once could cast a spell that did a minimal amount of damage and now they can disintegrate creatures without acknowledging the same comparison of the caster is still 'just casting a spell'.

I'm not saying there is no disparity, it's just that not many people make fair comparisons coupled with the appropriate analysis. Every class gets tools and then gets better with those tools.

I have a Tiefling who collects exotic weapons. He craves glory and takes prizes from those he's slain over the nearly two centuries he's lived. Dipped fighter for some armor and shield proficiencies and then went evangelist cleric and turned him into a war singer.

Arms Master + Quick Learner.

Although I think it may only allow either trait to reduce the penalty to -2 we ruled that they both stacked and after the first swing of any combat the penalty goes from -2 to 0.

Even just a -2 penalty to use any weapon isn't bad for some classes. Picking the right weapons training on a fighter can mitigate this quickly or a barbarian raging.