Fiasko's page

Okay, cool. Thanks Dennis. I basically have 2 characters in tier. My level 3 swashbuckler, Cisco. And my level 2 spellslinger, Rowdy "The Honey Badger" Copperpelt. I should be able to part with one them for a month!

Hey all, if I play a character in a php, I can't play them in society play, right? How long do we think this pbp will take? One month? That will help me decide who to play.

Since the playtest thread does not appear to be locked (and there's even some Kineticist discussion going on in a few threads) I figured I'd update this post with the second game I was able to play recently with my Spiritualist.

#6-08 The Segang Expedition Level 3 Spiritualist (Hatred) Playtest

Vague spoilers below!

As I am saving money to afford the glut of items needed in the near future (a +2 Headband for the Spiritualist, an Amulet of Mighty Fists and a +2 DEX belt for the Phantom), the only change from the last session was picking up a Wand of Long Arm for the Phantom to use via UMD-- which I neglected to activate the one combat where I would have had time to do so, although it would not have made any difference.

I was fortunate enough to play with a great GM and a fun group of party members that had the situation "under control" as far as the adventure was concerned (I was playing up at Tier 4-5), but I was still able to glean some data about the Spiritualist.

As in the last adventure, while Phase Lurch is very cool it did not come up at all this session. Additionally, I was stymied twice as far as my other class features. The adventure requires the party to lie in wait at one juncture for an ambush-- this would have been a good time to call my Phantom back to my psyche, to take advantage of Skill Focus: Perception, except that the minute-long time requirement to summon the Phantom meant I couldn't afford to do so and still expect to contribute to the theoretical combat.

Sure enough, we were ambushed with an effect that required a Will saving throw, which I failed (barely) but would have been able to negate if my Phantom was in my psyche. The Phantom failed as well with its abominable Will save.

Predictably, the Phantom was not able to compete with the attack bonus of the monsters at 4-5 tier, but the gap was particularly egregious in this instance. However, thanks to some excellent debuffing courtesy of the Witch, Investigator, and Oracle in the group, the poor opponent in this case...

This was pretty much my experience with the class as well. The class features were stymied by the long duration required to manifest the phantom, or even to switch the phantom from one form to another.

It's interesting because Shared Consciousness, which I think is the mechanic you wanted to use, says that while the phantom is manifested in the spiritualist's consciousness, the results of a failed will save can be shunted into the phantom's section of the consciousness instead. (Basically, the phantom takes the hit instead of the spiritualist, which is nice.) But the phantom can not be manifested in any way during the duration of that effect. Fair enough.

That could be a penalty of a few rounds, which would matter if the spiritualist were in combat and it were possible to manifest the phantom as a standard or even as a full round action. But as it takes one minute to manifest the phantom anyway, the mechanical limitations of the class are a bigger penalty than the actual penalty.

Due to the long duration, the phantom can't be manifested during combat anyway, so a few extra rounds aren't a big deal.

The chronicle sheet definitely inspired me to get a table together. I like the idea that you need the chronicle to continue playing the class after the playtest. That made me want to get in on it. Plus, the classes have so much flavor, I was looking forward to playing one. As far as I know we only mustered one table here in SF, although I think our VC had several PbPs going. In the wider Bay Area there may have been more, but I haven't heard.

However, in the end, the classes fell short, as is the risk in a playtest. No one at my game was in love with how their class played. I think I'm the only one from our table who played his character twice (a spiritualist) and I don't know if I'll play him a third time now that the playtest is over, even with the chronicle.

But, I think the chronicle was still successful as it encouraged us to play, and a few of us wrote up some playtest feedback, and that's really what it was all about.

I do have one last selfish and unreasonable request. Please find some way to add, remove, or alter a class feature that relies on an ability score so we'll have the option to retrain our Spiritualists in PFS.

As the Spiritualist doesn't really do anything well right now, I don't have much confidence that the feats, traits and abilities scores for the character I built will fit into whatever niche the final class carves out.

I'd also love it if the class could instead be Charisma-based, but I know that won't happen because Summoner.

The biggest issue for me is still the 1 minute duration to manifest the phantom from the spiritualist's consciousness. It's simply too long to function with all of the other aspects of the class, including bonded manifestation and the phantom's 2 forms. But I'm afraid it won't be changed either because summoner.

I think I'll play him again on Monday in a season 3 scenario. I suspect he'll perform better. I'll post an update if I do.

I played Yellow Pete and the Captain again tonight in 3-23 The Goblinblood Dead. Our party was made up of a bloodrager 2, an oracle 1, and a magus 3. I did have an easier time, if only because the mobs didn't hit as hard or for as many hit points. Pete and the Captain played like basic level 1 characters. Not too many bells and whistles.

Pete got himself a wand of cure light and cast mage armor and shield on the Captain. Then Pete fired at range with his light crossbow. Still had difficulty hitting, but did alright for a level 1.

With Point Blank Shot and his dex bonus he has a +5 to hit and does 1d8+1 damage.

The Captain, with Piranha Strike and his Hatred bonus has a +4 to hit and does 1d6+5 dmg.

They did okay against anything but the big bad. They weren't able to hit at all in the final combat. In 4 rounds they never hit once, which could have been my bad die rolls, or the fact that the big bad had an AC above 20, but still it was frustrating.

This time I kept the Captain manifested in ectoplasmic form the entire scenario. There doesn't seem to be any point in manifesting him in any other way at first level. He used phase lurch to scout and that was a lot of fun. He also used it to get around mobs in narrow corridors. It was generally useful.

I'll probably actually continue playing them because they're so fun from a role play point of view.

I should also point out that the Phantom doesn't qualify for Power Attack--Strength 13 is a prerequisite.

Since it has Weapon Finesse it does qualify for [url=http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Piranha%20StrikePiranha Strike[/url], though, which is functionally equivalent.

I always recommend a Cure Light Wounds wand with your first 2 Prestige, but if someone else can cover that you may want to consider a wand of Mage Armor (or get that next). Use your L1 rebuild to pick up Shield as one of your spells known. Then you can cast Mage Armor and Shield on your Phantom to get its AC up to 24.

That is, assuming you want to keep playing the class.

Gosh, thanks for pointing that out and for the advice. I'm coming across like such a noob.

I'm definitely getting a wand of cure light with my first 2 prestige. I think I'll play him again on Monday in a season 3 scenario. I suspect he'll perform better. I'll post an update if I do.

Uh...how'd you get those stats. By my reading, as a human, that's 16-18 point-buy, and thus wrong.

With 20 point-buy, your stats should've been

Str 10 Dex 16 (+2 from Human) Con 14 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 10

And that assumes no dumps and about the same (suboptimal) initial layout. With a good layout, you could have something like this:

Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 8

And be quite a lot more effective as a ranged character.

Also...why'd you waste Mage Armor on yourself? You're not forbidden from wearing normal armor in the least. And, indeed, have Light armor Proficiency. As a ranged character +1 or +2 AC doesn't seem worth the spell.

And so on, really. This just looks like a really suboptimal stat layout that would have had a bit of trouble as almost any Class. I mean...a high stat of 15 is really just not a great way to go.

And I say this as someone of the firm opinion that Spiritualists need some help/changes...I'm just noting that your experience may not be representative.

Thanks for pointing that out. I got those stats by writing this at 2am. I have no idea what I was looking at... My stats were:

STR 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 10

I played a level 1 Spiritualist named Yellow Pete in Hall of the Flesh Eaters. Our party consisted of all Occult classes. 1 mesmerist, 1 medium, and 2 spiritualists, of which I was one.

My build:
Yellow Pete
Human Male
STR 10 DEX 15 CON 13 INT 14 WIS 14 CHA 10
Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Traits:
Reactionary
Possessed

Hatred Phantom: Captain Whistleteeth
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Power Attack

The overall shtick is that Yellow Pete was the only surviving member of a pirate crew that was lost at sea. He is now haunted by the captain of his ship, Captain Whistleteeth, who wants Pete to get their booty back. Unfortunately, the captain thinks Pete is a scaredy cat, hence the nickname.

The RP between the two characters was a lot of fun for me, much more so than any other pet class I have played. The fact that the phantom can talk and interact with his spiritualist host, as well as the other PCs, brought a lot of RP value.

Unfortunately, that's where the fun ended.

Yellow Pete was not very exciting as a caster. He didn't have much magical or psychic flavor. He had 2 spells at level 1: Mage Armor and Cure Light Wounds, and 3 spells per day. I cast mage armor on Pete and the phantom and that left Pete with one spell for the day. Because we were all fresh out of the box level ones, healing was a big issue for us, so I saved that spell for cure light. And boy did we need it.

I sent the phantom off to scout and triggered the first combat encounter. (I should say here that I got the idea to use the phantom as a scout from reading the forums. The idea would not have come to me naturally as there is no mention of scouting in the spiritualist's description or that this was the initial design decision for the phantom, but it seems to have become its default role). Fortunately, I had manifested the phantom in incorporeal form, so even though he triggered combat, he couldn't be hurt. But once combat was triggered I didn't know how to switch him to ectoplasmic so he could fight.

Turns out phantoms can't switch forms. Well, they can but it involves dismissing the phantom and then remanifesting it in a ritual that takes 1 minute. So, basically switching can't be done in combat. Luckily, Pete had a light crossbow and feats in ranged combat! The other spiritualist didn't even have his phantom manifested, and couldn't manifest it in time, so was basically out of combat that first encounter. His character hid.

The party would have TPKed in every encounter if it weren't for our kind GM. None of our classes were effective in combat and the mobs hit very hard.

In the middle of the first combat, the other spiritualist announced that he wanted to change classes. We talked him out of it, but maybe we shouldn't have because we barely survived the scenario. But the difficulty level may have had more to do with that particular scenario than the Occult classes being under-powered. Any brand new level ones would have had a hard time I think.

At one point we decided to sleep overnight in the dungeon so we could recover spells and heal a little. The next day I saved my spells for cure light wounds (cast out of combat between fights) and didn't cast mage armor, but again we almost TPKed in the final fight. Without mage armor the Captain only has an AC of 14. Pete was the last man standing, and, once again, thank goodness for point-blank shot and precise shot (and his light crossbow!). Pete took down the BBEG and lived to tell the tale with 3 hit points remaining.

This class needs some kinks worked out before it is ready for prime time. Phantoms need to be able to take advantage of the versatility of their forms and spiritualists need more ways to survive, especially at low levels. Perhaps touch spells can come at level 1 instead of 3. I don't see any reasons for phantoms to have incorporeal form at level 1 when they can't cast touch spells yet. Scouting can be done just as easily with ectoplasmic form and phase lurch (if that is going to be the phantom's real role). I had fun playing Pete and the Captain, but that had more to do with my character concepts than anything else.

For more info on this playtest from the mesmerist's POV, click here

Manifesting a phantom is under the Phantom class feature, page 50.

A spiritualist can fully manifest her phantom with a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform.

The phantom stays manifested until dismissed by the spiritualist (a standard action) or it is returned to the Ethereal Plane.

Thank you!

Hmm... a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform doesn't feel right to me.
Yes, if the phantom has been sent back to the Ethereal Plane, I can understand how a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform would make sense. But, if the phantom is already in the spiritualist's consciousness, 1 minute to fully manifest feels too long, and a ritual doesn't feel right. (The action is described in other places as pushing the phantom out of the spiritualist's consciousness, and this feels more accurate to me. When I played, I imagined the phantom rising up out of the spiritualist's body. I didn't imagine some kind of ritual.)
To go from the spiritualist's consciousness to partially manifested is only a standard action. But to go from their consciousness to fully manifested takes 1 minute? I can understand a full round action. But 1 minute? That is some serious mental constipation.
I'm concerned about the duration of these actions because they hinder the versatility of the phantom. I had a difficult time when I played figuring out how to go from ectoplasmic to incorporial or vice versa. (I only played at first level, so I didn't have bonded manifestation yet, but I don't think it's clear how the phantom goes from bonded manifestation to fully manifested either or how long it would take.) As I read it, the mechanic for moving between forms is clunky: the phantom has to be dismissed first as a standard and then re-manifested in a minute long ritual, which means switching forms can't be done in combat. I'm not sure I understand this design decision. It means that the phantom's form has to be chosen before any combat starts, or rather, the form they are in at the start of combat is likely to be the one they stay in (That's how it was for me when I played). This makes it difficult for the spiritualist to adjust tactics on the fly.
All of this being said, I really enjoyed playing my spiritualist. The phantom has a lot of flavor. It could talk and interact with the spiritualist and other PCs much more so than other types of companions. For example it could scout and report back, it could give the PCs bad advice, all of which was fun for me to role play.
You can find more about the playtest I was in from another POV here: Playtest

I'm not sure if I missed this, but I don't see anything listing exactly how the Phantom flows from Total Manifestation to staying within the Spiritualist and vice-versa. Looking at Greater Master's Call, which specifically allows the Phantom to withdraw into the spiritualist as part of the action, I assume that the phantom cannot just withdraw into the spiritualist as a free action. Again, I probably just missed it, but I do not see it at all.

Was this ever answered? I'm having a hard time understanding this too.

I played a level 1 Spiritualist in Flesh Eaters last night and had a lot of fun, (although the party would have TPKed in every encounter but for the benevolent grace of our GM) but I was all turned around as to what kind of action it is to push the phantom from the spiritualist's consciouness and manifest it as either incorporial or ectoplasmic. I could find no action listed under Etheric Tether, or under Manifestation on page 57. Bonded Manifestation is a standard, but for the ectoplasmic or incorporial forms there was nothing listed that I could see.

I'd SO love a Kitsune boon, if anyone has an extra.
I'm new to PFS and don't have another boon to offer in exchange, but maybe there's something else we can work out?