Fernn's page

Magical Tails?

Have you considered perhaps going Oracle
and taking the
Wrecking Mysticism curse?

Everytime that you gain an additional mystery spell, you replace it with the magical tail feat instead.

I had a kinda cool build concept with a Kistune Oracle Waves(or Winter) /Marid Bloodline Sorceror.

So Basically:

The marid bloodline Sorceror arcana lets you:
"Whenever you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you can change the type of damage to cold. This also changes the spell’s descriptors to match this energy type."

So burning hands? It is now freezing hands. Fireball? Now its a giant snowball explosion.

NOW, you combine it with the Waves(Or winter) Freezing Spells revelation:
"Freezing Spells (Su): Whenever a creature fails a saving throw and takes cold damage from one of your spells, it is slowed (as the slow spell) for 1 round. Spells that do not allow saves do not slow creatures. At 11th level, the slow duration increases to 1d4 rounds."

So if they fail their reflex to half the damage from your burning hands? They are slowed.

They failed their fort save against a cold ear piercing scream? They are slowed.

So from the oracle side, you just take damaging spells. And from an utility side, your wrecking mysticism will be providing you with spell like abilities from the magical tail feat.

I was not aware that the Sun/moon had hellcat stealth.

Here I thought perception checks were " made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action."

One might argue that A giant Ball of flame in the sky that lights up the world each day MIGHT fall under "observable stimuli"
Especially when you face directly at it... it hurts your eyes.

This math of "perception by distance"

Might make more sense if you were trying to pinpoint a Fire elemental who was chilling out on the sun.

Easy solution:

Be a Draconic sorceror.

Eventually get high Charisma and Form of Dragon.

Seduce a strapping young Hydra to be your mate.

Live out your years with hydra.

Eventually you will bear a son.

Magic jar your son.

You are now a hydra.

When you become decapitated, two more heads sprout up.

Profit.

Fernn wrote:

I'll have to delve into how each teamwork feat will interact when you have a massive army that benefits from having this feat.

Ally Shield:

You are willing to use your allies as shields to ward off attacks aimed at you.

Benefit(s): Whenever you are the target of a melee or ranged attack and are adjacent to an ally who also has this feat, you can initiate this feat to skillfully pull the abettor into harm's way or dodge behind the abettor as an immediate action.

You gain cover against that attack (and only that attack). If the attack misses you but would have hit you if not for the cover bonus to your armor class, the abettor becomes the target of the attack and the attacker must make a new attack roll (with all the same modifiers) against the abettor's armor class.

---

Note that the prereqs are that when you are the target of an attack, and are adjacent to someone else with the feat, then you can swap them in for cover and if it would have hit you they have to make a new attack roll on the new target.

Nowhere does it say that there is any limit to the number of times you can do this.

If your entire horde has the feat automatically, then you can just have them swap each other out to migrate damage to the ones in the back while keeping the ones up front alive and well.

Spread the damage out so that no one single undead takes enough to be destroyed, and then simply throw some inflicts on the damaged ones after combat to heal them back up.

It effectively turns your horde into a swarm with a single massive HP pool.

Its... like a beautiful bloody skeleton conga line!

I have stumbled onto a nifty little chain of feats that I have done with my Gestalt Cleric/inquisitor, But I dont see why you cant do with a normal cleric or wizard:

Feat 1. Spell Focus Necromancy

Feat 2. Skeleton Summoner(not to important but when there are no bodies around its very convenient, can be excluded)

Feat 3. Charnel Soldiers(EDITED)
With: -Outflank(teamwork) for +4 on all flank bonuses
-Precise strike(teamwork) (1d6 extra damage for all flanked attacks)
-Escape route9teamwork) (no AOO's if moving through spaces your allies threaten)

Round 1, Cast false alibi. The trigger being, "whenever I see a shadowy wall appear, the memory of me casting it is replaced with an enemy casting it instead.

Round 2 Create Illusioniary shadow wall.

Survive being turned to stone by medusa.

Basically what the title says, can some caster using illusions purposefully believe they are real? Or to put it another way, can they disbelieve their own disbelief?

For instance, if the caster is up against a creature that has some gaze attack, can he use Shadow Conjuration to throw up a Wall of Stone, disbelieve his disbelief of his own illusion, and avoid the creatures gaze ability this way?

EDIT: edited to just talk about gaze attacks

"A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw."

We're in the Reign of Winter campaign. Ravens keep clawing our eyes out. We want goggles. Not magic goggles. Not smoky lens goggles. Just goggles. Can't find them anywhere, in any book. Help?

There are masks. Wear some masks. Masks are easy.

So, are we forgetting the following part in the equipment page in pathfinder?

"Merchants commonly exchange trade goods without using currency. As a means of comparison, some trade goods are detailed on Table: Trade Goods."

also

"In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.

Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself."

Then under the trade goods page:
"Merchants commonly exchange trade goods without using currency. Trade goods are the exception to the rule that you can sell an item for half its price; they're valuable enough to be exchanged almost as if they were cash itself. Trade goods are usually transported and sold in larger quantities than the amount listed. A farmer may have 10- and 20-pound sacks of potatoes to sell to a large family or restaurant, and be resistant to tearing open a bag just to sell a few individual potatoes."

So to summarize, the peasantry and common folk already have a system in place. They know what the goods they sell and barter with are worth, after all its their living.

The appraise skill to determine the price of a "common item" is not meant for potatoes, or turnips, its meant for manufactured goods, and goods not sold on a daily basis or in bulk.

A swordsmith might sell a a couple of swords a week, depending on the size of the city, But a farmer will be selling apples and produce by the bushels on a consistent basis.

Now If a commoner came upon a Heavy Steel shield one day while tilling his fields, he would then have to roll appraise. And if he doesn't have any ranks or that sort then he would be confused as what a shield like that would cost.

In the sense motive skill they even have the following
"Orshok has a jeweled idol worth 1,800 gp he mistakenly appraised at 2,000 gp. He tries to sell it to an art collector at an Asking Price of 2,200 gp, knowing the collector will counter with a lower price. The collector succeeds at her Appraise check and realizes the idol's actual value. The collector attempts a Bluff check against Orshok's Sense Motive check and succeeds by 1, so her Undercut Percentage is 3% (base 2% plus 1% for exceeding the check by 1). Because the collector thinks the idol is worth less than Orshok's price, her Initial Offer is 6% less than her estimate of the value (1,692 gp) and her Final Offer is 3% less than her estimate (1,746 gp). When she makes her Initial Offer, Orshok counters with a price of 2,000 gp. This is higher than the collector's Final Offer, so Orshok attempts a Diplomacy check whose DC equals 25 + the buyer's Charisma modifier to keep the buyer's interest. He succeeds at the check, so the buyer counteroffers 1,740 gp (between her Initial and Final Offers). Orshok doesn't think the collector will go much higher, and decides to find another buyer.

Later, Orshok tries to sell the idol to a spice merchant who finds it interesting but knows nothing about art. Orshok again starts with a price of 2,200 gp. The merchant's Sense Motive check beats Orshok's Bluff check, so she realizes he isn't offering a fair price. The merchant attempts a Bluff check opposed by Orshok's Sense Motive check and succeeds by 4, which makes her Undercut Percentage 6% (base 2% plus 4% for exceeding the check by 4). The merchant's Initial Offer is 12% less than Orshok's price (1,936 gp), and her Final Offer is 6% less than Orshok's price (2,068 gp). Orshok counters with a price of 2,000 gp. This is less than the merchant's Final Offer, so Orshok attempts a Diplomacy check (DC 15 + the buyer's Charisma modifier). He succeeds, so the merchant accepts Orshok's counteroffer and buys the item for 2,000 gp."

and Guess what? Right underneath it says:

Trade goods are exempt from bargaining, even in extraordinary circumstances.

The PC's fight their way to the very heart of the Dungeon of The Golden Hoard. This once dragon occupied cavern system had been usurped by a power lich in an attempt to bolster his arcane resources.

The PC's had not anticipated the sheer number of undead that crawled, moaned, and shambled towards them. But through sheer determination, they reached the Lich's Master Arcane library and Treasure hoard.

"Alas Heroes, your end draws near! How pitiful you were to come here, now you will serve me in the undeath for eternity!"

At that the lich lets out a flurry of crackling dark energy at the PCs. Skeletons start to swarm the room. The walls start oozing green slime. Even the PC's very shadows seem to be lunging at them!

Wary from a long dungeon delving adventure, The PC's try to decimate the undead hoard in an attempt be able to land a killing blow on the lich.

However, the holy water has run dry, the cleric's healing has been expended, and the Party's fighter is on his last leg.

"Hear me lich! Today will not be your demise, but now, without your undead army it will be you who will be fearing our return!"

At that the Party tactfully retreats. Circumventing traps, and killing what ever stray creature they had missed on their way down.

A day goes by, and the Party rested up, and resupplied delve into the liches lair again.

As they enter the dungeon and eerie silence fills them with dread.
The whole dungeon is quiet.

"Cast see invisibility!" The rogue barks at the wizard.
With that the party carefully moves through the dungeon, surprised at the emptiness and morbid calm.

The traps had not been reset. Monster remains lay where they were slain. Door left Ajar with each room encounter.

Finally, the PC's enter the Lich's domain. The cleric in anticipation warded his party members with a series of boons and enchantments that would aid in the last battle with the lich.

The door bursts down, and the Fighter wielding his mighty greatsword challenges the Lich.

But, no one answers. In fact, there is no sign of life in the room. Upon closer inspection the room seems cleared of any treasure, and right in front of the main treasure box of the treasure horde lays a pile of bones inside what used to be the lich's robe!

The party opens the treasure box and inside they cannot believe their eyes.

A carefully written note on a scrap of parchment that reads:

"Thanks for clearing the way, and the awesome loot! lololol XD"

Matthew Downie wrote:

SheepishEidolon wrote:

So why not simply accept their wish and let them raise the NPC, with their money and after their encounters?

Because it cheapens death. Right now, it's an interesting and moving story where the party's friend tragically dies, motivating them to seek justice. If he can be brought back, it negates the story. If they speak with his ghost and he begs them to accept that people die and carry on without him, the story can continue to progress.

Alright, that's a good story - but going through major difficulties to raise him can be a good story on its own. Both versions have the potential to further amplify the bound between PCs and NPC.

From my point of view: If you allow PCs to raise from death, it should also be possible for allied NPCs. And monsters. And villains. Of course it can get weird fast, so it shouldn't be applied too often.

If the NPC tells the party he wants to stay dead, it should be really convincing. Else the players are left with the frustrating feeling 'But, but, I wanted to raise him...' - or, more generally spoken, with perceived control loss. Well, I could imagine the cleric to come up with a final helpful hint during speak with dead, or with a small quest for his final wish.

See you get the point that it starts to get weird wayyy tooo fast.

OOh! That is a good point. I would hate to take the agency out of the character's role playing. The priest was very well liked by the group and their fondness might turn sour if they go through so many strides to try to raise him only to find out he doesnt want to. I could see how that will not sit well with the PC's. I'll have to write up a good dialogue, instead of having his response be "I dont wanna!"

Hi

A friend of mine has been running a campaign starting at lvl 12, including the Occultist book,amongst others.

In a recent battle (I'm a Kineticist. lvl 12 TK, took Fire as 2md element at 7th) I had to go invisible to stay alive & summoned Fire Elementals (which lasted about a round).

Now my friend says that this is broken, nore powerful than even a wizard who can only summon a few per day. (Forgetting the fct that I only summoned about 5 that day).

He says that is broken and never wants to use the Occult book ever again, anywhere.

This is offset by his determinatination that another friend in the same game wields an oversized chainsaw in each hand, with many attacks each round, doing over 100hp damage more than my Kinetecist each round.

Does anyone else think Kineticists are overpowered in light of the dual wielding oversized chainsaws monster?

I'll accept his views since he's my friend & it's his game. Wondering if I'm so out of kilter not to think his is the only view?

Thanks
Paul H

Just my two cents:

People complained that the Drow class and the At will spell like abilites was game breaking. And Of course, having unlimited SLA in conjucntion with any other class would be so.

Now you have a class that can basically turn invisible forever, fly forever, animate things forever all day everyday and people say that its balanced because A wizard can do it better and stronger?

That's the thing though. Kineticists arent wizards. Just in the same way that rogues aren't wizards, and gunslingers aren't wizards.

Wizards are wizards.

A rogue could use his high level stealth to move around unnoticed, but we dont say this is suboptimal because you can cast "Invisibility".

A Monk could use his ki powers to Jump 20 feet in the air to reach a ledge, but we dont call him suboptimal because a wizard can cast levitate.

A gunslinger can reload and shoot a creature 20 feet away, but we dont call him suboptimal because a wizard can cast magic missiles.

See a trend? these other classes have mundane/extraordinary ways to accomplish what wizards and other spell casters can do better, stronger, and faster, however what limits a wizard or sorcerer is how many times he do it a day, or what spells he has to prepare.

People who say that Kinetiscits lack power because they have a linear growth in skills and adaptability Do not see that while that is indeed true, it doesn't mean they can't do it well and for the most part ALL DAY.

I think wild talents that duplicate spells with zero burn are going to be pushing GMs, and modules to a very dangerous point.

For background, I've never played any oracle, but I have a friend who plays dual cursed oracles all the time. He's really good and insists it's the only way to play oracles. I don't want him to get on me for playing a DC oracle in a way that he thinks is suboptimal; also, I'm bored of DC oracles now that he's done it infinity times. So! I'm here to ask for a fun/good oracle that doesn't follow the obviously optimal path of DC.

I had thought I might try the heavens oracle as a gnome. With a CHA score of 20, I would cast color sprays that would have a DC of 17 and pretty much render even bosses unconscious. That would certainly impress my friend! However, then I realized that it would drive everyone nuts -- I would rob the team of fights. I would pre-empt everything they did, and shut down all combat. My friends will not like me for this.

So... I wonder... what are the coolest oracles that are more team-oriented, or have cool flavor, or are super-useful? What's fun?

If it helps, my team is a spiritualist, occultist (tank), paladin, and alchemist/gunslinger (ranged). I feel like a bard would go well there, or something that buffs, but most buffs are boring. Still, there must be some cool options. I know many of you have played a ton of these characters. What is your expert suggestion?

you know what is fun?

You know what is a race that gets +cha? Kitsune.

There is an oracle curse called "wrecking Mysticism"
It allows you to take the Magical Tail Feat whenever you would get a mystery spell.

Just for your reference here are the powers you get 2/day for every tail that you have:

1. disguise self
2. charm person
3. misdirection
4. invisibility
5. suggestion
6. displacement
7. confusion
8. dominate person.

Some good mysteries if you just went FULL Cha, would be Lunar/Nature/Lore. These mysteries have a revelation that instead of Dex to AC you add Cha.

Lore is actually quite fun, as you can use Cha for all knowledge checks. However the rest of the revelations are just ok.

Another decent pick for a mystery is the Solar mystery, as some revelations completely cancel out the negative side effects of the curse.

All in all, It looks like a fun build, you are super useful outside of combat. And you would be hard to hit in combat.

Not to mention the "Realistic Likeness" feat that lets you look like ANYONE.

Fernn wrote:

The only reason a dragon might use a weapon against another dragon, is if such weapon in question had the "bane" magical property, or was one of the 6(maybe more) Anti-Dragon specific weapons that can be created.

Do note that dragons who use such artifacts, or magic weapons will probably label him a blood traitor, or something along those lines.

Well, i think, Sarunil, a chaotic red adult dragon would care less of being called a traitor for she had to deal with Maerkod, that old blue dragon who always shown interest in taking her territories, and life. She prefers to be addressed as an alive dragon rather than an honorable (hahaha! honor! hahaha!) dead dragon. She is instead that mofo who managed to kill him, while the other dragons still wonder how. The truth is, once she knew the blue dragon intentions, she decided to spend a few years training as a badass fighter, gaining about 5 levels, learnt how to use that sword that giant brought to kill her 30 years ago (she was fortunate the giant stepped in the wrong side of the ruined floor and fell 100m and broke his neck before landing a single blow) because it is a dragon killer weapon... and so she used it that way. Now the giant's sword and Maerkod's head are her most appreciated pieces in her increased treasure; Maerkod had a nice looting back in his cave... And the other dragons decided to allow her to keep her territory, and Maerkod's territory too; to tell the truth, some other dragons wanted him dead as well.

Hmm, then Perhaps see if you can add a flavorful anti dragon weapon to this giant sword, here are a couple of specific magic weapons:

Dragon's Doom

Dragon's Tail

Dragonbleeder

Dragoncatch Guisarme (literally knocks dragons out of the sky)

If Sarunil is evil enough to use these weapons, they might earn her some scorn of the dragon community, but they wont retaliate against her considering she has Dragon Bane Weapons.

Also, maybe she should look into the Orbs of DragonKind.
These artefacts are literally the ultimate bane of dragons. They imprison them, and manipulate their power against other dragons.

So, in the group I GM for, one of the players wants to play an evil character who will have goals that will most likely go against the party. We have a few house rules on PvP:

-nonlethal PvP is okay, so you can knock someone out. Only time this isn't okay is in the middle of an encounter (because a knock out could mean Dragon food)
-lethal PvP is okay, so long as all involved agree with it, and what it could mean for their character
-betrayal is okay so long as I'm informed beforehand, so I can prepare. Betrayal in this sense isn't literal stabbing in the back, rather leading the party/a character into a less than ideal situation (that I'll create, so it's not totally damming and some could stuff can come out of it)

Basically, with those rules in mind, I'm looking for advice on how best to handle an evil PC who will most likely betray the party - tips on what restrictions to set would be appreciated as I've never GM'd for something like this before, and have only played in a game where a Stabby McBackstab couldn't keep it in his sheath (a boss fight isn't a fun time to be colour sprayed - this was not following the aforementioned PvP rules), and I don't want it becoming like that.

The player hasn't written a backstory yet, so I can't give much more information, but they do know the PvP rules, and so I reckon they'll be looking to set up a betrayal.

Chaotic Evil?

Neutral evil/Lawful Evil?
More acceptable.

It is true that Evil characters tend to be more selfish, and to a degree see little value in the life of another, however, from a pathfinder group perspective, an evil character, would stand to lose More from betraying/fighting his own group, than doing so to NPC's, Generally Paladins, and NPC's are weary of Evil characters if it is known that they are evil, while PC's would have a reason to trust an evil aligned PC.
If the Evil PC wants to duel someone, it should obviously be stated, and should be done so in the presence of the other party members. But such dueling should have a meaningful purpose not a "look my player is stronger than yours, HAHA"
Maybe the Evil PC would like to steer the group to a different direciton, or a different tactic. And Demands a duel to prove his honor/might to be in charge. And as a consequence of such dueling then that player would lead a charge or attack on a group since OBVIOUSLY he is strong enough to take down his own Ally, then he shouldn't chicken out when it came to danger.
It can be a lot of fun roleplaying wise, but keep in mind that it should not be fun on the expense of others.

For example, if a character prepares more utility spells for the day, and The Evil PC wants to duel with his optimized spells, then that is an obvious disadvantage.

Also be wary that once the Evil PC does betray the party, that is one player that the party depended on. Why would they trust that player again?

I could see a betrayal like a judas action of selling out his allies to evil authorities, in which the PC's get sent to prison.
But by doing so, the evil PC is able to gain better favor among that evil group, and break the PC's out and strike directly at the evil organizations leader.

It's a tough call.

I haven't read the whole thread but I did read several posts and favourited many of them against digging with a sword.

First of all 20 min to go though 10 feet of stone with a sword? More like 10-20 hours of extremely exhausting work.

It's not like he could swing the sword and slice through the stone wall to any degree. Friction and just that much dense mass being hit by a weapon without most of its mass at the end (like a hammer) I think it would bounce off the wall and or skip off it. It would do some damage but not a lot. Plus it would hurt like a b*+~$ on your arms as all the force you put into the wall was put back on you. You cannot slice thought it adamatine blade or not as you would have to disperse the stone as the blade is passing through it and the stone is too dense and hard/strong for that and it's solid not a liquid. So comparing say a knife of normal steel going through flesh is completely different than a indestructible blade going through stone.

On another note in machining you can't take a carbide tool bit and just take off the maximum amount of material(as per how big the bit is) of say mild steel in one pass without asking for trouble. But that's sort of getting off topic.

Anyways, you couldn't slice though the stone wall with the sword at best you could half-sword with it and chip away at the wall. Which would be very tiring and chips of stone and stone dust would be flying in your face and elsewhere. I would have him take a certain amount of non-lethal damage every so often from flying chips and just the stress on your body of hitting something that dense for many hours. Plus you would have to remove the rubble you created as you went. I suppose the other party members could do that. Then as other posters have said would your tunnel hold up?

Also with stone even a small stress fracture can all of the sudden start to crack and grow and grow and if there is a lot of weight on top of it can fail explosively. Which is why in concrete structures there is rebar so it doesn't...

I think you brought some good points along your explanation. While most actions and events in pathfinder have some sort of rule, there aren't clear explanation of real world physics that would only serve to slow down the game. I believe that such rules fall under the category of common sense.

I feel players read 1 rule or interpretation, and try to use it as a blanket term to get the best bang for your buck. But considering Pathfinder is a game of optimization and utility, why wouldn't players think like this?

TPK wrote:

Actually I have no problem with and adamantine hammer breaking through the wall with ease and not requiring the 4 cuts concept, but at this point I am more pointing out that the HP and Hardness apply to each section. The PC is using a adamantine blade which cuts cleanly through and when you do enough damage it will penetrate that section of wall, but the penetration is still in the shape of a cut, so a line... For this to be useable you need to make 3 more cuts. The only reason I think this description is truly important is to define the timeframe, difficulty (read fatigue) and amount of noise that will occur once the cuts have been complete and a slab of stone falls loudly slamming into the ground, not just making noise but a hell of a lot of noise and shaking the area with its force. No more surprise rounds against all the...

How much damage is enough though? I guess that's where I might be misunderstanding. Would you really require someone to do 172 points of damage to cut a single line through a 1 foot wall section? And then do it again 3 more times?

Because now you've made the guy with the sword do enough damage to reduce the wall to rubble 4 times.

WAIT A MINUTE...

Maybe this is where the creators saw some weapons as being ineffective...

Scenario 1: You Slash a wall as hard as possible, and it makes a cut. Going by sunder rules, and other stuff like that, you actually dealt damage. A sunder specific character would also probably do a lot of damage, and by Raw it should do enough damage to destroy it... the only problem is that it was an ineffective weapon to begin with.

Scenario 2. You Hit a wall with an earthbreaker, rolling a high sunder check and damage. By raw, the great damage is enough to collapse a wall, and because its a hammer its an effective weapon. So by rules sake, it makes sense.

Similarly a net falls upon a character, and such character takes out a dagger, and begins to deal damage. In no time, the damage succeeds and the player is free.

Another character gets caught in a net, and takes out a Warhammer. The he may have the str and damage to inflict enough damage on the net, but being an ineffective weapon would limit it, not by a clearly defined RAW, but the rule interpretation of "ineffective weapons."

Try to explain it to your player like this:

The nodachi is to the wall what an axe is to a dirt floor.

Then explain to him that using the nodachi to chip away at the wall is like using an axe to dig a hole in a dirt floor.

20 minutes is probably being generous.

That is good comparison, considering that while dirt has no inherent hardness to it, and visciously sharp axe would still be hard to dig up a hole

@Ascalaphus

And I'm fine with PC's just cutting locks off stuff. If anything is just more wealth by level that I am throwing to them, and if a chest was going to be hard to open, it would probably be a phalactery or something with insanely high Hardness.

@Mysterious Stranger
I completly forgot that damn sword weighed 8 pounds! One thing is to have the strength to use it, which the player does, but he only has a 12 Con. One can do weights and dumbells all they want, but if they dont do cardio, then they are still going to tire out with excessive physical activity.

@Zilvar2k11
I agree that from a narrative point of view it should be allowed in some cases, as I had said, the walls he was escavating through were relatively worn out instead of just solid wall.

@TPK
Those are some handy suggestions! The dungeon they were running was a pretty linear one that I had created to catch the PC's up on some loot and wealth, but I remember they were using similar tactics previously in other instances such as enemy forts and dungeons that I told them alerted whatever denizens resided in there.

The gas is a nice touch. I wonder what the perception DC it is to identify flammable gas?

So, I was wondering If as a PC you can ready an action to high jump if someone approaches during combat to attack you.

Normally it wouldn't be too crazy of a readied action as The dc to jump a couple of feet into the air isn't game breaking.

With a Dice roll total of 20, at most a PC would be jumping 5 feet into the air to only fall back to the ground instantaneously.

HOWEVER, I'm thinking of a Grippli LV5 Ninja/1 Far Strike Monk build.

Scroll down if you want to answer the simple question, or continue to read if you want the explanation:

So,
Can you ready an action to high jump if an enemy comes up to attack you?

DominusMegadeus wrote:

It's fine if you don't let them hack through dungeon walls, but if you do let them, don't make up exhaustion rules that I have a hard time imagining ever come up except when your party pisses you off.

Exhaustion rules exist, but they tend to cover more common situations in the game (swimming, long marches, running, raging). There are many examples of heavy labor causing exhaustion in modules, adventure paths, and PFS scenarios though, so it isn't unreasonable to ask a player to make checks along those lines, assuming the player is aware that what they want to do is heavy work that may wear them out before they attempt it. In all cases it's either moderate or high levels of exertion over shorter periods of time (a few hours), or extreme levels of exertion over rounds/minutes of time, with the outcome usually causing Constitution saves to avoid non-lethal damage or fatigue/exhaustion status effects (and things like raging not even allowing saves). While digging through a solid stone wall isn't expressly mentioned, it isn't a leap to say that trying to rapidly dig through a 5' stone wall would cause Constitution saves. The Endurance feat would help for all of those types of rolls.

As per rules others have mentioned, you'd need a digging implement, not just any old thing made of adamantine. I'd also ask the kind of pace the player wants to keep up, and ask for rolls accordingly. The faster they want to go, the more I'd increase the DC and penalty for failure. If the player wants to go really slow, like take 6 hours to go through the 5' wall (alone... quicker with more people), I wouldn't bother with more than a single roll (or take even longer and have no risk at all).

Loud noise would attract attention too, so be ready to deal with the consequences of that as well.

Next time, I will try to make some good calculations on how fast he would like to dig. Normally it wouldn't be too relevant, however We did have an alchemist with a congnatogen up that only lasted a good 50 minutes, so I didn't want to gimp him on that based on the excavating.

I don't think you are wrong to impose fatigue or exhaustion on players who want to use their resources in a way that would technically possible, but probably tiring. I think that's a very good use of the mechanic.

Just to use a non-martial example, I've had two different players in PFS want to spam guidance on every player in the party continuously for the entire adventure. I said that they would be able to do so, but that continuously walking while casting a spell every ten seconds would result in fatigue. I would have done the same thing if a player insisted that his character would spend the entire adventure walking on his hands or in your case, wanted to use a sword as a digging/excavation tool.

I think everybody on this thread has made some good points. Using non traditional tools to complete tasks would be inefficient, and I should really make it a point of what penalties might incur if they go at it at an accelerated rate.

Also on a side note, having two players continously casting guidance seems... overreacting odd. I suppose it gives you an edge, but a very minimal one at that. At the end of the day, its just a wee bit disrupting with the normal flow of how things should go. Which is not to say they cant cast guidance in most situations, but if your friend is talking to a merchant, and I run up behind him, say a couple of magic words and flail my arms around and then pat him on the back and leave, that just doesnt seem kosher.

Only thing I think you should have done differently is when he was doing it tell him maby 1/2 way throught this is starting to get to you from the act of hacking at the wall and moving the stones. This way they could have though about changing tactics before he got hit with it. If he keeps going he knows that it is so.

Even with the weapon cutting though air if you swing it a couple of hundred times you will start to get tired. Then again if you fight in combat for your con score in rounds with out take the Rest action (full round action that you take a -2 ac) I put you to fatigue unless you are raging.

I guess granting greater foresight would reduce the soreness.

The penalty wasn't meant to be Debilitating, However I guess from a player's perspective, he solved a problem, and now he is penalized for it would make anyone upset.

But it was suppose to be a slap on the hand. a -1 to attack rolls that comes off with any magical healing or a sleep.

4)This is probably something the player worked for.
Be careful on how you deal with it, because noone likes it when the DM silver bullets that thing you built up for/ saved up for.

I find this to be a dangerous balance between, here is a weapon that you have been working for, use it to sunder your enemies weapons to your heart content

To

Here is a lightsaber capable of cutting through any material at no risk outside of combat.

DominusMegadeus wrote:

It's fine if you don't let them hack through dungeon walls, but if you do let them, don't make up exhaustion rules that I have a hard time imagining ever come up except when your party pisses you off.

The character, even if the player would not, should have known the event would be tiring so I would have told the player in advance. Then he could have decided to go through it or not.

Dungeoneering checks made it possible to know that there was something on the other side of these walls, the width of the wall was indeterminable. As the cracks on the walls were not big enough to provide light. It was a matter of, the PC is making progress, but is tiring because it was an ineffective weapon, which I relayed to the player that a sword was not a good weapon for such a task.

By extension I try to my best to relay the consequeneces of their actions to the players. If they jump off a cliff, I tell them its going to hurt. If they wrestle a flaming skeleton, I tell them its going to hurt. I told this player that digging your way through rock was going to be inconvenient and will be tired.

*shurgs*

I pretty much allow you to cut anything that is smaller than the blade of your weapon and that you can then move.

For example , if the wall was too thick for the actual small blade of a nodachi to cut completely , then you wouldnt be able to dig in it , BUT if the awesome sealed door to the boss treasury wasnt , then it would be cut in no time at all.

If PC actually tried to cut something larger than the blade and used an argument about cutting it little by little , then yeap , a penalty will be given.

I think the OP is better off not adding in surprise rules for getting tired and explaining that while adamantine is pretty hard it still has to follow the rules, and some an adamantine dagger, sword, and warhammer will have varying affects based on their design.

An adamantine warhammer will not destroy a rope because it is the wrong tool, and a dagger would not cut through a stone wall. A sword might, depending on the GM, but it wont happen as quickly as it would with a bludgeoning weapon, or something like a pick.

PS: Sometimes players just dont agree with GM's no matter how much talking/explaining we do, so we just have to let them huff and puff and keep the game moving.

It's fine if you don't let them hack through dungeon walls, but if you do let them, don't make up exhaustion rules that I have a hard time imagining ever come up except when your party pisses you off.

These are valid points, I should really hold one belief to be stoic in regards to how its handled in future situations. Its just hard to impose a firm NO its no possible to a YES it is possible interpretation on rules especially on such odd mechanics such as adamantine.

GM_Beernorg wrote:

Sure, you sword slices through stone like flesh, however all that cutting has made, a giant difficult rubble pile of terrain. Also, sure, the sword ignores hardness 20 or less, the PC however does not ignore, moving heavy arse stones to the tune of, many tons, thus, I would have make him exhausted if he was trying to both destroy and remove the wall so the party could pass through.

Are your PCs also exhausted after they grapple Tigers? Or are you a hypocrite?

Well, when you are grappling something consistently, it can be assumed that you are well equipped in the arts of grappling. You could say you are EFFECTIVE .

Slashing your way through stone with a sword, could more or less be considered INEFFECTIVE

Just my two cents.

Anything is possible if you're angry enough.

Sincerely,

~Barbarians

But seriously (Well that comment was partially serious), short of amazing strength and an adamantium Earth Breaker, just busting through any wall willy nilly is a little absurd. You didn't nerf it. Just tell him to get a more appropriate tool for the task.

As for the dagger... Imma say, "Nope" to that. That's basically a common tool replacing several abilities far too easily. I know that happens frequently but with magic, but still, it too easily invalidates locks, security and privacy. Even if allowed, it should be the same as basically just destroying the lock.

perhaps integrating a lock into a chest, and then their attempt to unlock it would just jam up the lock might be the best way to go if this ever came up.

For our wall friend, a few things stand out to me as a GM.

1. Did the player's PC say they were starting to hack at the top of the wall, because if they did not, hacking apart the middle or bottom leads to...PC being buried by tons of stone.

2. Sure, you sword slices through stone like flesh, however all that cutting has made, a giant difficult rubble pile of terrain. Also, sure, the sword ignores hardness 20 or less, the PC however does not ignore, moving heavy arse stones to the tune of, many tons, thus, I would have made him exhausted if he was trying to both destroy and remove the wall so the party could pass through.

3. Very much agree with, welcome to wandering monsters, as the amazingly loud din you created REALLY carries in the still quiet of the dungeon, have fun!

(nope, sword still not a digging tool, despite what some may say)

Note that I try to be relatively benevolent in my GMing:

2. By himself I would take it would be a difficult endeavor, his allies could have easily helped carry the rubble away, so I am not too worried. However, in case he goes solo and wants to excavate holes in the wall, then I would Highly consider exhaustion.

3. I always make it a habit to tell the players that hacking away at doors and chests and the likes is no silent task and each round they continue doing so might alert surrounding creatures or enemies of their attempts/locations.

On a random side note, I had a nice riddle door present itself in the dungeon. The door led to a small treasury. The door had the riddle engraved on it:
"What can physically fill a man to make him lighter, that a trap can provide?"

Our monk inquisitor was stumped and then told the party: " I DONT HAVE TO SOLVE THIS RIDDLE, I have Knock as a spell!"

And so the monk inqusitor cast knock, and I didn't bother looking at the dc save, and so the door opened.

Inside the room there was some expensive looking china in some well build cabinets, and a dagger in a well build case on the far west side. And a curious looking pillar in the middle of the room.

The monk rushes over to detect magic on the dagger, while the sorceror of the party decided to roll perception on the pillar, only to reveal that it was a pillar of 1000 arrows trap.
At the moment the sorceror yells ITS A TRAP.

And arrows fill the room, and the sorceror barely makes it out alive, the monk (with sortof high ac) decides that he will drop prone (+4ac to range attacks) and knickknack patty wack and roll out of there. At the time we thought the rule was moving at half speed while prone.

So the monk makes it out BARELY, and the teams wizard relays that the trap should stop in a bit.

WELL turns out that moving while prone only lets you move 5 feet, so this monk would have taken about 10 (1d4 +10(1d8 nonlethal arrows)

SO what can fill a person to make them lighter that a trap can provide?

Holes.

Fernn wrote:

So other big question is, how do I prevent locked treasure chests to guarded against such sundering mechanic?

Same player referenced other party's and tales of PC's who had an "utility Adamantine Dagger" that could be jammed in locks to open doors, or as I had pointed out, leverage against an external lock or swung at to open.

Any thoughts on that?

There isn't much you can do about that and honestly you probably shouldn't. Locked chests are not a terribly interesting device and are only really an issue for fairly low level parties.

You might include the occasional mimic, infrequently have delicate stuff that might be broken with all the bashing about or very infrequently have something with unusually high hardness but don't overdo it.

These things are there to be found and if the players have invested in ways of dealing with them don't go out of your way to circumvent that on a regular basis.

That sounds like reasonable enough. Put in some occasional porceline figures that could fetch a good price, or glass blown objects.

I suppose locked chests at their levels and beyond (lv5) are just minor nuisances for them to handle.

Oh, this again.

Adamantine will cut through stone, but it still doesn't make a sword a useful tool move stone.

My exact thought, It's a little worrying having doors in dungeons that can easily be sundered, but I guess that should be properly adjusted with traps on the other end, or the sound that it would attract.

There's already been a massive thread that eventually became about exactly this. I'm sorry that I'm not better at linking, otherwise I'd post it.

My take, however, is that Adamantine is canonically two steps below certain types of space metal that retain extreme heat or cold in complete defiance of the laws of physics as well as one type that by its mere presence, alters the flow of time.

Adamantine acting as a proxy for lightsabers, by contrast, isn't even being imaginative yet.

It's certainly an odd concept to wrap your head around Metal that can cut most anything being absurd, but having wizards create other worlds out of thin air more reasonable. Also, I think I have stumbled upon the thread that you are referencing and I found the whole thing so muddled and silly at the end.

Well, Adamantine weapons don't ignore all hardness. They ignore hardness of less than 20.

So, pretty much, they cut through such less-hard materials in a similar fashion that a regular blade cuts through flesh (something with no hardness). So, a person would have to offer sufficient effort to work through 10' of stone as they would through 10' of meat. Heck, even if it was "only" as hard as butter, I can imaging hacking your way through 10' of butter wouldn't be a physically easy task.

Additionally, weapons have to get through the HP of the object in question. According to the CRB, a 3' thickness of hewn stone has 540 HP. So, a 10' thick section would have about 1800 hp. So, he'd have to take enough swings with the weapon to do 1800 points of damage to work his way through.

However, there's no rule about such fatigue, other than Rule 0. I do agree that simply having an Adamantium weapon shouldn't be something that instantaneously allows a character to bash/slash his or her way through any obstacle with impunity.

These are some handy numbers to keep in mind, I hope I wont have to pull them up in the future.

I agree with you setting reasonable limits. I'd have probably gone with a Fatigued condition rather than a miscellaneous -1 to hit, but that's about it.

I use a lot of adamantine weapons and even with those reasonable limits they're still a good investment.

I was thinking about going with fatigued at first, but for story sake and to prevent opening up a can of worms that would interrupt game play, I wrote it off as a -1 to attacks. Perhaps if more extravengent endeavors are made to tunnel with adamantine tools I will implement a fatigued or slightly more fatigued condition.

Need some quick advice/thought:

I have a player who obtained a Adamantine NoDachi.

All the players are dungeon crawling around.

They come across a room with a lock display with a magical dagger inside.

Said player uses his Adamantine Nodachi to easily sunder the lock.

A more than reasonable action and effect. Woo, players did not have to use disable device.

Later on in the dungeon, they find a room. A perception check detects a slight draft coming from a certain section of the wall.

Player with nodachi steps up, and sunders the wall. Said wall (for flavor reasons) is about 10 feet long, and already fractured through antiquity (secret hallway probably closed by a hastily cast stone shape)

I let him roll, and slash away through 10 feet of wall after a good 20 minutes.

I let him know that since a Nodachi is not an effective weapon, that he is now "tired" from using a sword to dig through wall and thus takes a -1 penalty to attack rolls until he gets magically healed or rested.

Then we get the famous argument "BUT IT CUTS THROUGH LIKE BUTTER BECAUSE IT BYPASSES HARDNESS"

I find myself to be more than reasonable GM for allowing the tunneling to begin with, and felt it was not an ABSURD penalty to give him only a minus 1 to attack rolls because of using an inappropriate weapon.

Do you think I was too harsh? He felt upset that his "lightsaber" was being nerfed, especially since he spent a good 3k on it.

Bonus question:
Say we go with the "cuts through like butter and a knife argument":
1. Does that make adamantine arrows target Touch AC if the enemy is wearing anything less than adamantine armory? Firearms are strong enough to only target touch because normal armor provides no defense. By proxy, adamantine arrows bypass hardness thus by such butter through knife assumptions, Armor is useless.

2. If the above is true, then if you are ever against an enemy with a steel tower shield and full plate, all one has to do is knock an arrow straight at the tower shield to effectively hit the player because "IT CUTS THROUGH LIKE BUTTER BECAUSE IT BYPASSES HARDNESS"

3. By THAT extrapolation, if you are ever sieging a castle, all you would need to do is get an army of archers to shoot adamantine arrows at the castle. The castles's wall composed of mainly stone, would be no match for ADAMANTINE, effectively cutting through the castle walls like butter, and skewering the people inside.

What are your thoughts?

Fernn wrote:

While allowing him to play NPC, would be relatively cool, I do not think it would be too great of an idea, have you personally witness such a thing? Care to relay some experience?

Actually I didn't see in actual play. But you could start low, with letting him design two NPCs or so, then try it out. I proposed it because I love building new characters myself, and as a GM (hence NPC builder) I finally found a place where this is a benefit, not a burden.

you know, that is a pretty good idea. Whenever I play a PC, I always have millions of ideas and character creation concepts going through my mind.

I think this might be good, in letting his creative juices flow and keeping him happy.

Maybe have some of his NPC roam the town, or make some sort of arena where he can test out his fighting prowess.

Thank you for the good idea!