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Where does PF distinguish between noting the square someone is in via perception versus "in the room?" Why within 30 feet?

(Thanks for you help so far, I think we are getting close to the answer.)

On the dispel, I tend to agree (belatedly) that since you cannot see the target, dispel magic cannot work on invisible creatures. Further, that likely means you cannot counterspell anything they do as that also requires that you see that spell being cast (which you cannot if it has somatic components.) This makes invisibility pretty powerful.

So - please elaborate more on the perception piece and does anyone disagree with the targeting piece of this?

Felwred

I'm hoping the players/GM's out there can help answer a pair of questions regarding invisibility.

Here's the scenario -- a spellcaster (wizards in this case) are both using invisibility - the first using invisibility, the second greater invisibility. The NPC wizard with greater casts a dominate spell on the PC's party. We wish to target that NPC wizard with various spells to negate his invisibility and/or just to hit him with area effects, etc. The second wizard, a PC, casts displacement on another PC who is in combat (since it isn't an attack, the PC wizard remains invisible.)

At this point, a rules discussion ensued that was problematic.

The first is in locating the invisible casters. If they cast spells while invisible that don't have a visible effect eminating from them (lightning bolt, color spray, etc.) - what is the DC to locate the square where that caster is located? How is it computed?

It appears to be a perception check versus an opposed stealth check with +20 to the DC for the creature being invisible. So if the modified stealth check of the player (skill plus D20) was a 20, the DC to locate the square where the caster is should be a 40? Right? Here's where the problem is -- the stealth chart has no mention of casting as something where you can use stealth. The DM concluded that stealth skill doesn't apply and it would be perception to notice a loud conversation (similar to spell-casting) of -20 plus the +20 for being invisible. DC 0. Please help us understand if that is in error or not.

Second - this one is even trickier. Can you use dispel magic (not greater dispel) to make an invisible creature visible. The key is you have to target a creature, object, or spell. Target requires you to see the spell effect or creature. As the target is invisible, it begs the question - can you target it?

Many thanks.

Felwred

We are running a tabletop pathfinder edition d&d game (3.75) on Tuesdays (though we've considered Wednesdays as well) in Westminster/Broomfield, CO.

Game is 50-50 role-playing and combat. Casual fun group - players in their mid 30s to mid 40s. We have 1 seat open.

Contact me if you are interested.
Fred

Felwred@earthlink.net