Elliander's page

I think I see where some of your other questions are coming from: Table 3–1 on page 302. The damage values listed for the various attacks there are the Standard damages for those attacks. In many cases, a monster's actual damage inflicted with a natural weapon will NOT exactly match up to the damage dice listed on Table 3–1; this is the case of the Large minotaur's gore. According to table 3–1, a large gore should do 1d8 damage, but when we statted up the minotaur, he ended up doing a lot more damage than a CR 4 creature should do. As a result, we decided to tone down his gore attack slightly from what a standard minotaur's gore does, and dropped the gore to 1d6 instead of 1d8.

In other cases, we significantly increased a monster's natural weapon, especially in a case where the monster has only one natural weapon. Take the tyrannosaurus, for example; it's a Gargantuan monster, so Table 3–1 says its bite should do a base of 2d8 damage. But that's not enough to give a tyrannosaurus enough damage with its sole attack, so we decided to up its bite attack to a base of 4d6 damage.

Basically... what it boils down to is that Table 3–1 lists AVERAGES. It's a handy place to send folks for damage values with...

I think I see now about the dice. That does make allot of sense. Trying to make my own monsters I ran into allot of balancing problems too, and I can certainly see how you can't exactly fit 5 pages of descriptions for each monster in the book.

So the Minotaur was toned down because of it's other attacks. Well, couldn't you instead have kept it at the standard 1d8 than used the Secondary weapon calculations to adjust it?

The reason I am asking is I am creating a new monster based in part on the Minotaur and Half-Fiend Minotaur, and mixing in fire traits such as from fire elemental and fire giant, and I want to assume it is holding no weapon, and pre-calculate what will happen if it is holding one. I also want to pre-calculate differences in size, and things like that. I want to keep as close to what rules there are, because in another monster when I made up all kinds of stuff I found it was allot harder to balance out than if I based it on existing monsters as a kind of Chimera of sorts.

http://www.etherealspheres.com/RedBullFiend.pdf

But I guess there isn't really any rules at all for it. Still, couldn't you simplify things by making new rules? For example, if something is bipedal vs. something on all 4s. There are probably a number of ways to bring a bit more order into it.

And was that the reason that a Minotaur is times .05 STR, while the Half-Fiend has times 1.0 STR, because the additional attacks didn't justify a mere 2 CR increase? And if that STR is weaker because they are Secondary attacks what would it be if it wasn't? I know you have averages for the dice now, and it makes sense to think about the dice damage in the same way as 10/11 is average stats, but is there an average for STR damage?

But I guess there isn't really any rules at all for it. Still, couldn't you simplify things by making new rules? For example, if something is bipedal vs. something on all 4s. There are probably a number of ways to bring a bit more order into it.

And was that the reason that a Minotaur is times .05 STR, while the Half-Fiend has times 1.0 STR, because the additional attacks didn't justify a mere 2 CR increase? And if that STR is weaker because they are Secondary attacks what would it be if it wasn't? I know you have averages for the dice now, and it makes sense to think about the dice damage in the same way as 10/11 is average stats, but is there an average for STR damage?

um.. sort of. Still not really clear on how, as a secondary, the damage is changed. Is it -2, or a lower size category? and why would gore be affected for being secondary but not bite?

I am not really understanding, for example, why the Minotaur has a stronger Gore attack than the Half-Fiend Minotaur.

The Primary Secondary thing I get, and I think I am starting to understand the double dice, and the STR thing. I also get the 2 claws things too. It seems to me that the two claws are ignored because he is holding a greataxe, (as in, how can you slash something with your claws if your claws are gripped around a weapon?) so I would imagine he would get the two claw attack if he dropped the greataxe.

Also, in the case of the half-fiend minotaur:

bite +6 (1d8+3), gore +6 (1d6+3)

but on the table both bite and gore, for all sizes, appear to have the exact same dice roll. If all attacks become secondary when holding an axe, why the difference between these two natural attacks?

As I mentioned on the other thread, when a monster wields a manufactured weapon (as in the case of the minotaur), all of that monster's natural attacks become secondary attacks.

If the minotaur were to attack with only his gore, he'd treat it as a full attack, but he'd have to not be wielding his axe at the time. It doesn't matter if he's actually ATTACKING with his axe... all it takes to turn a natural attack into a secondary attack is to be holding a manufactured weapon in your hands. Otherwise the rules for things like attacks of opportunity get all weird.

As for Powerful Charge... the actual amount of STR bonus one adds to the charge can vary. There's no set-in-stone value for this. It's USUALLY calculated at twice the normal gore attack, as if the attack were a critical hit (similar to how a lance works on a charge), but not always. It varies by the creature.

Ok, let me see if I understand this now...

In the case of the Half-Fiend Minotaur, it uses 1d6 instead of 1d8. So does that mean if a natural attack is secondary, then on the chart on page 302 I would shift down one from large to medium? So, for example, if a Minotaur was shrunk to a medium he would instead use 1d4, and if grown to huge he would use 1d8, for as long as his gore attack was secondary? And he would follow a similar system for bite and claw?

Or does it only appear that was because of, say, a -2 to damage, so if he became huge instead of being 1d8 it would be 2d6 -2?

and whatever dice would be rolled for it's given size, would always be double?

Now in the case of Gore and Powerful Charge I am still a bit fuzzy. It's 0.5 for Half-Fiend Minotaur, and 1.0 for Minotaur. What is the original affect STR would have without holding the weapon, and in what way does weapon affect it?

It's probably worth pointing out that the minotaur's gore attack is a secondary attack (and thus gets some downgrades to its attack and damage bonuses) because it's also wielding a weapon. Whenever a creature wields a manufactured weapon, ALL of its natural attacks become secondary attacks.

That doesn't explain the difference between the Half-Fiend Minotaur and the Minotaur, especially since a Half-Fiend can in theory be applied later in a campaign and there is nothing to explain why that ability would weaken. On the flip side, it would mean that if the Minotaur were to drop his weapon, his natural attacks would be stronger?

The confusion for me is the lack of understanding on how to calculate for a variety of situations, such as no weapon, changed size, etc.

so, in the case of the Half-Fiend Minotaur, are the listed calculations considering that they are weakened by a specific consistent amount to the secondary attack formula?

There are obviously a couple of minor errors in those entries.

I made a post here, giving you credit for finding them, because some 'Str multipliers' are not exactly right.

For the Gore damage, you should note that the Universal Monster rules regarding Natural Attack damages have a note that says:
"Base Damage by Size *
*Individual creatures vary from this value as appropriate"

So, basically, the damage dice of the Gore for the Minotaur and Half-Minotaur is slightly sub-par (1d6 instead of 1d8), probably because the creature has also a Greataxe iterative attack (and so, to balance the damage output); the Rhinoceros (a creature which has only just a gore attack) is slightly more powerful (2d6 instead of 1d8); and the Wholly Rhinoceros (a creature which is supposed to 'impale' you with its horn) is decidedly more powerful (2d8).

I see... still, that kind of stuff could still use some clarification in rules. Maybe if there was an extra modifier for number of legs in addition to size, or an additional monster ability for specific cases to deviate from the rules. because as it looks now there is really nothing to help me recalculate damage if a Minotaur got bigger or smaller. Or, if the weapon is the reason for that, an explanation would help for cases where a Minotaur might not be holding one. Suppose, for example, you make a player character and that character starts without a weapon. Or suppose I make a new monsters for a campaign and want to base it on an existing monster with changes. Without some kind of standard, even across different monsters of the same size, it makes that very hard to do.

The Powerful Charge Gore simply deals double dice damage (2d8 become 4d8, and so on) - however, it's true (as stated above) that some creatures deal 1.5x Str on their Gore when making a Powerful Charge, while other creatures deal 2x Str bonus.

For the Hit bonus of the Gore and Powerful Charge Gore, however, you should remember that when a Gore is used in conjunction with a Manufactured Weapon, it becomes a secondary attack (and so, it applies a -5 to hit - or -2 if the creature has the Multiattack feat - and uses only 0,5 Str bonus). When the Gore is used as a Powerful Charge, it adds the +2 from the Charge action (I checked, and the hit roll is right).

Just my 2c.

Ok, so if a Minotaur was not holding another a Manufactured Weapon, the gore would be correct, and if it is holding it, it would not be? What about if it got a claw and bite attack from a half-fiend template? How would other natural Primary weapons change?

Elliander wrote:

Can anyone shed light on this?

As I said, there are inconsistencies and there are no rules to clear them up. Only the developers can clear these up.

I agree. We certainly need developer feedback on this one. I need to be able to take the stats for a given monster, and understand the rules in such a way as to allow me to adapt it to a variety of circumstances.

That seems... messy. ok, lets go with a specific example.

the Half-Fiend Minotaur, has: 23 STR, +6 STR Modifier --- gore +6 (1d6+3) and (gore +13, 2d6+9) with powerful charge.

the Minotaur has: 19 STR, +4 STR Modifier --- gore +4 (1d6+4) and
(, 2d6+6) with powerful charge.

In both cases the Gore here appears to be the STR Modifier, and the powerful charge seems to be 1.5 times STR Modifier. and there is an extra 1d6 each case too. So it appears the dice roll is just doubled whatever would be on the table, and the STR really does affect it. It doesn't explain how attack improves. I imagine that's what Minoataur's gore +11 means.

But then the Rhinoceros seems to be different. STR 22, +6 STR Modifier --- gore +8 (2d6+9), (gore 4d6+12) with powerful charge.

If it goes by strength in that case, then it's times 1.5 for Gore, and times 2 for powerful charge. The only thing that seems consistant so far is that the dice roll appears to double, but then even that isn't making much sense since both the Minotaur and the Rhinoceros are large creatures so the creatures appears to defy the table for how a gore attack works. It says 1d8 for large creatures, but here I see 1d6, 2d6, etc. for large creatures.

To make it even more confusing, the Rhinoceros, Woolly is also different but the same size.

STR 28, +9 STR Modifier --- gore +14 (2d8+13), (gore, 4d8+18) with powerful charge.

So here are two related creatures of the same size, compared to two other creatures of the same size, and there doesn't seem to be any logic to how gore attacks work. And Powerful charge isn't at all explained in a usable way, so I can't figure out how to properly adapt characters for a size change situation.

Can anyone shed light on this? It seems the more I try to figure it out the more confused I get.

oh, in the case of powerful charge, would that be 1 extra Dice, or what? because that also increased.

Thanks allot! That makes allot of sense!

In the pathfinder Bestiary there is a detailed table on how much damage certain natural weapons deal based on their size, but I can't find an explanation about a + on some monsters.

For example, the Half-Fiend Minotaur, on page 171 of the Pathfinder bestiary, has a an attack:

gore +6 (1d6+3), and a powerful charge gore +13 2d6 +9

On page 302 the table explains the 1d6 comes from it's size, but it doesn't explain the +3. Is that something natural that would be unchanged even if it were changed by, say, enlarge person, or reduce person?

And powerful charge, described on page 303 doesn't really explain where it gets that from and how to apply it when size changes.

Would appreciate any information to clear this up for me.

ya. I am seeing that now. Even without spells, or druid abilities, or inspiration: just those 3 abilities are amazingly powerful, even more so combined with her really high attribute adjustments.

About Blinding Beauty... a Nymph can suppress it as a free action, so if she doesn't it is constantly active. If a character makes the saving throw, does that make it immune? If so, is the immunity to just that Nymph or to any? And what happens if two Nymphs with Blinding Beauty Gaze upon each other?

If they could blind each other, I suppose that would explain why they tend to be solitary creatures. And a blind nymph would appear unable to use stunning glance.

Elliander wrote:

On a related note, would Stunning Glance be a gaze attack that requires eye contact? Since Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and creatures tend to view beauty in a number of ways, is there anything about the Nymph that is dependent on the perspective of the creature?

Stunning glance does not require eye contact; the nymph can just throw one of those around each round without fear of anyone actually looking back. Both it and blinding beauty work equally well on any target, despite the target creature's perspective on whether or not it thinks the nymph is beautiful.

Thanks. allot of useful info. Though all this does make Nymph even by herself even more powerful as a Player Character, let alone one with Shadow abilities, so I am going to have to come up with personality quirks and weaknesses to balance her out.

The succubi demon lords, Shami-aumorae and Malcanthet, have been statted with a "Profane beauty" ability, that gives them their charisma modifier as deflection bonus, as long as they don't wear armor (which btw is heretical towards the standards of fantasy armor for females). So I guess that one would be negated by blindness.

Maybe, for savor only, because it's certainly not in the rules, you should replace Unearthly grace with this for a fiendish nymph.

That is a very good suggestion. Some of the questions raised are in relation to her altered form. I started with multiple templates and ended up with something totally new so that ability seems like a useful compromise I can bring up.

If you want to see what I am talking about, you can read the details here:

http://www.etherealspheres.com/ShadowNymph.pdf

It's gone through allot of tweaks since first play, and allot more are expected. Most of the finer details are the result of questions during play that were not previously defined. It seems the more detail I go into one thing the more detail I have to go with something else.

Elliander wrote:

So would there be any examples of any creatures who would not be affected by it? And for the purposes of a campaign, suppose a Nymph had a fiendish template applied, or suppose another Fey who is fiendish has it, how would that logically work?

This question has actually come up in quite a few groups in the past so the more clear I can get it the better.

Nope. The defense affects everything, in the same way the resistance bonus from a cloak of resistance or the AC bonus from a ring of protection affects everything. A nymph who gains the fiendish template or something like that keeps her unearthly grace ability unchanged. Only templates that specifically say that the base creature loses its ability strip abilities from the base creature. Same goes for all of her other abilities and special attacks and special defenses.

The behind-the-scenes reason that the nymph has this ability is because she needs the AC boost. She doesn't wear armor, she doesn't have natural armor, and allowing her beauty to be a supernatural defense is very much in flavor for her powers and it gives her a really fun and unique defense. But when you get right down to it, it's really just a deflection bonus to AC and a resistance bonus to saves with some fancy flavor attached to it. They're always on and always protect her.

That makes allot of sense. And even as a character playing a Nymph, combining a high charisma roll with the racial bonuses to charisma, she can't really stack that deflection bonus with armor, and she probably wouldn't wear armor anyway since allot of armor limits her dexterity bonus too. So she is pretty much stuck wearing next to nothing for the entire campaign.

I am glad I got a response from the Editor-in-Chief about this one. Makes it feel allot more final. And I am relieved that it works that way, because it would be a bit tedious to have to keep track of multiple AC and deflection bonuses for a number of situations.

The question came up this time because I created a new monster based on the Nymph (still a work in progress) and started playing it in a campaign. We went with the 25 point system, instead of dice rolls, so she took a big hit to Strength and Constitution to get an 18 to charisma and 16 to dexterity. We have her LA at 5 (so far) and her as a level 4 Rogue. As a level 9 character in a level 9 party she has only 35 HP, but she also has 35 AC. Allot of questions came up in balancing efforts, and since the first monsters she went up against happened to be undead, this was one of the big ones.

...

On a related note, would Stunning Glance be a gaze attack that requires eye contact? Since Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and creatures tend to view beauty in a number of ways, is there anything about the Nymph that is dependent on the perspective of the creature?

Unearthly grace is not something that you can easily quantify, since no human can possess it and no human has really seen it (hence the unEARTHly part of it). The basic idea, though, is that a creature is so poised and beautiful and confident and impressive that they become harder to hit or damage. The type of bonuses granted are resistance and deflection bonuses... basically, weapons that try to strike these creatures veer aside almost as if they know they are not worthy of bringing harm to something so incredible and beautiful and important, poisons simply can't bring themselves to be as potent when used against them, attempts to influence their minds are too guilt-ridden about trying to overwhelm such a unique and wonderful personality, and so on.

It's not dexterity based because the nymph or whatever doesn't actually have to physically react to danger in order to gain the benefit. It's just always working. They're just that awesome.

So would there be any examples of any creatures who would not be affected by it? And for the purposes of a campaign, suppose a Nymph had a fiendish template applied, or suppose another Fey who is fiendish has it, how would that logically work?

This question has actually come up in quite a few groups in the past so the more clear I can get it the better.

I'd put down the 'Unearthly Grace' being based off charisma as, since charisma is a measurement more of force of personality than just appearance, that it is (as a supernatural?) ability more the being enforcing their own views on reality. It's not 'she's too pretty to damage', it is instead 'I am too wonderful for the universe to allow this to happen' and that force of personality is warping reality around them to fit that perception.

ooooh. that's an interesting way of putting it. Like saying, "I REJECT that reality." seems almost egocentric.

That makes sense... so therefore it can't be her physical beauty at all.

Maybe it's just gracefulness. So I guess then the question comes down to, what exactly makes charisma? Beauty, attitude, grace, or all 3?

Edit: and if it's just gracefulness, why base it on charisma, and not dexterity? The aura concept makes more sense from that perspective, but then, what about creatures who neither regard or disregard natural beauty, like the undead?

That aura logic makes sense. What does everyone else think?

I am trying to get it all figured out so all the finer details are understood before next game play.

I guess a better way to phrase the question is this...

If a Nymph uses her Blinding Beauty to blind a creature, and therefore is no longer able to see how beautiful she is, would she loose the benefits of Unearthly Grace, such as to AC, for it knows not how beautiful a target it is attacking, or would it still apply because she is still just as graceful regardless of if the monster can see her?

A question came up in a game recently on how "Unearthly Grace" works. Which adds a monster's Charisma Modifier to reflection bonus and saving throws. The Nymph is one Monster that has it.

Logically speaking, at first we thought it was like... she is just too beautiful to want to hit - but that raises questions about monsters who can't see at all, or who don't care at all about physical beauty, like the undead, or even things like Goblins who logically would consider Beautiful as unattractive. It also raised questions about how it would affect things like saving throws.

Then I saw the same ability in a monster of the underdark:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e

So is it a matter of... so beautiful... or the kind of charisma that just affects the way she moves regardless of how it looks. The word makes me think it is that her charisma makes her graceful so would still work even with monsters who are blind. But I am not sure.

So how exactly does such an ability work? With something like "Stunning Glance" it clearly seems to be a gaze attack, and with "Blinding Beauty" it's obviously a matter of appearance. But "Unearthly Grace" is a bit different since there are so many other monsters that can act differently based on how the ability works.

Would Unearthly Grace apply even if the monster would reasonably consider a Nymph to be ugly, or if a monster has no regard for beauty at all?

And if it would work for a monster who would consider her ugly, would that be like a negative deflection bonus to AC instead?

Elliander wrote:

By Spells, I mean the spells that the standard monster character comes with. She has as many levels of druid spells as she has in CR. It is as if, when you erase all her spells, she has a CR of just 1.

If she has Druid spell casting of Xth level, that doesn't grant her all the other class abilities of the Druid. So you can't remove X levels of Druid spell casting thinking you are reducing her CR by X.

It will be far less than X.

I see what you mean.

Elliander wrote:

Does Pathfinder use the same 10/11 rule

For example, what would a Nymph's Challenge rating be with no spells but everything else?

Yes on 10/11.

By spells do you mean SLA? This is an ask your DM question, but I (as a DM) wouldn't allow removing SLA.

I use a modified bestiary 313 rule for Monsters as PC, and it is complicated. The Nymph is one of the strongest races (top 10) only beat by things like Planetar, some Archons, and some other classes.

By Spells, I mean the spells that the standard monster character comes with. She has as many levels of druid spells as she has in CR. It is as if, when you erase all her spells, she has a CR of just 1.

In a previous group where I played a Nymph, the DM didn't let me remove spells and instead went with negative levels in my chosen class, and only gave me access to the Druid spells when my main class was that level. Mostly because how powerful she is. However, she ended up dying pretty quickly because those negative levels hurt. Still was fun though playing a Nymph Bard.

In working on a Shadow Nymph though, even without any of her spells, she is much more powerful I think. As a DM, what Challenge rating would you give her, as either a character or a monster, as is?

http://www.etherealspheres.com/ShadowNymph.pdf

I made a few tweaks. Here is a form that can be viewed in a browser.

http://www.etherealspheres.com/ShadowNymph.pdf

I just made a few tweaks to it. On close examination, the section on Swim from the Monster Manual wasn't really needed because in the Pathfinder Bestiary the Swim bonus is so high. I also figured the touch attack could improve with HD, and added two abilities.

I also created some abilities of my own I had in mind. I figured that, being from the Plane of Shadow, she has to have a chance of precision when moving through the Plane of Shadow, and also came up with an ability "Shadow Gate" which is similar to Dimension Door.

Anyway, if anyone wouldn't mind taking a look, I could use an objective view on what the Challenge Rating should be, and what should be changed if anything, or any opinions about it:

www.etherealspheres.com/ShadowNymph.doc

Welcome to the Paizo boards, Elliander. Usually any use of the word 'smurf' in a post, or certain variants thereof, award you a random smurf avatar to accompany that post, irrespective of whether or not you usually have an avatar. The change is usually (unless the PostMonster General has decided to have some fun at your expense) only temporary and for such posts.

I just carried out a quick test in a suitable thread down in the Off Topic Discussion forum, and it seems that ' get's "Morphic ' in your second post on this thread earned that post a smurf avatar, and then you used the word 'smurfed' in your third post on this thread, so that got one too...
It used to be just the plain word 'smurf', but the PMG likes to keep everyone on their toes...

Edit:
If, whilst you are signed in, you click on the 'My Account' option at the very top of the screen, you should (though you may be asked for your password again if it is some time since you signed in) get a page where one of the boxes regards 'Messageboard Settings'. At least one of the options here ('click here to change your messageboard settings') will allow you to pick from the modest selection of avatars available for use.

Smurftacular :P

Elliander wrote:

...When you add the ability score adjustments for both Nymph and Shadow it ends up looking like this:

+14 Dex, +8 Con, +8 Int, +6 Wis, +16 Cha

I am using this template:

http://www.community3e.com/dn/monster/ShadowTemplate.pdf

The CR for the Shadow Template I am using is 2. In a situation like this, how would you adjust the Nymph , or combined, in making a Shadow Nymph?

I was also thinking of tweaking the shadow template above with this one:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shadowmorph_%283.5e_Template%29...

If you're taking a Nymph, subtracting her nature powers, and adding shadow powers, I really don't think you need to apply any Shadow template at all. You're creating your own "Shadow Nymph" creature/template. Run with it - don't rely on a template.

Also, Rogue is an awesome idea - though remember Nymph's only get Druid spells, so should only get some Rogue powers - Sneak attack probably? And Uncanny Dodge perhaps.

Also the Beauty effects still work great - just imagine: A shadowy form is tracking them, sniping them, eluding the party endlessly. They finally corner and catch sight of it when... WHAM, blinded by the terrible beauty before their eyes.

Ok, I decided to take you advice on this one. I created a new Creature, "Shadow Nymph" - I tweaked a few of the Nymph abilities to take Shadow Form into account, and tried a few ideas. I also brought swim back in since it looks like it was taken out on the pathfinder bestiary. I wasn't sure if there was a language for shadows, or what to use for a few places, so consider it a rough draft:

www.etherealspheres.com/ShadowNymph.doc

(I'd appreciate thoughts on it, and ideas for Level Adjustments)

Interestingly, if you take the picture for a Nymph from the monster manual and invert it, it looks exactly how I would imagine a Shadow Nymph to look.

http://www.etherealspheres.com/ShadowNymph.JPG

What the...

Shadowmorph? No...

Well, the shadow in the Monster Manual and in the Pathfinder Bestiary seem very limited. Only two abilities, and one of them - create spawn - isn't really something I would put into a player character. It also seems to consider Shadow as undead without actually saying it, which doesn't help when wanting to create a living create that is part shadow.

So I went looking and found some Shadows that I consider much more useful. But ya, Shadow Morph is a bit too much. Not nearly as good as the Shadow Template, and the whole ability to change the element of spells seems broken. "Morphic Aura" seems very useful when you want to create an evil character to play with good characters, since you can bluff alignment, but not so sure about a chance of weilding a weapon of a different alignment. If nothing else, I'd probably go with the Shadow Template, and just add "Shadow Familiar" (as an unseen servant) and just the aspect of "Morphic Aura" to give a chance of bluffing alignment to characters.

I played the shadow template in a previous campaign, and since the shadow form turns equipment into shadow as well, the DM ruled that when I assumed shadow form while in contact with a Construct it would assume shadow form as well. And even when leaving shadow form, it retained it for the full hour. So then we had a shadow construct which made for a very interesting battle.

Being made of negative energy also has some interested uses in play. In the Plane of Positive energy, you might have the same reaction as a normal character in the plane of positive energy. And in the Plane of Negative energy you might have the same reaction as a normal character in the plane of positive energy.

I would actually like to see a Shadow Template similar to what I have been working with appear in some form in a Bestiary. I figure if a living create pulled into the Plane of Shadow stays there too long, characters can begin to assume shadow characteristics, and a twisted character could in theory breed with an incorporeal to produce half shadow offspring.

WTF sm**f'd you? :P

Honestly, I really don't know. After I made a post, that picture just appeared. I don't see any way to set or change Avatars. I guess I'm just smurfed.

Thanks. Actually, for a story, I was working on a Nymph with a Shadow template, a twisted anti version of a Nymph from a Grove that was pulled into the plane of shadow and twisted. So she doesn't have any druid knowledge, and anything nature related is replace by something relating to shadow. (for example, instead of Knowledge nature she would have the same bonus in Knowledge Planar Shadow) and generally regards things of shadow with the same conviction a normal Nymph would for nature. For class, I was going to make her Rogue. But many of her abilities are sight related, which goes against the shadow nature of keeping hidden. So it seems she won't be able to use all her Nymph abilities at the same time as Shadow abilities. And since other abilities are based on beauty, I am not sure how to tie that in. But when you add the ability score adjustments for both Nymph and Shadow it ends up looking like this:

+14 Dex, +8 Con, +8 Int, +6 Wis, +16 Cha

I am using this template:

http://www.community3e.com/dn/monster/ShadowTemplate.pdf

The CR for the Shadow Template I am using is 2. In a situation like this, how would you adjust the Nymph , or combined, in making a Shadow Nymph?

I was also thinking of tweaking the shadow template above with this one:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shadowmorph_%283.5e_Template%29

adding to the CR, but ignoring anything from the second Shadow template that would stack. For example, the first Shadow Template get's +10 to hide when in Shadow Form, but the second template get's "Morphic Skin" which pretty much does the same in all situations, so I would go with the first template and not go with Morphic Skin at all. And since both get Darkvision that's unchanged. So it's really just the first shadow template, adding 3 abilities to it for an increase CR.

I am not really sure how playable a Shadow Nymph would be, but I want to give it a try.

.......

Onto another Nymph related question:

In the Pathfinder bestiary there is "Young Creature (CR –1)" which would
be of reduced size, so higher DEX but much lower strength and constitution, and a penalty to all rolls and HD, so might make for an interesting way to weaken a Nymph overall. But this raises specific questions in regards to a Nymph who relies on her Beauty. How would such a thing affect her?

in Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Monster Manual, they do by the 10/11 Rule for Dice, so to find out the ability score adjustment I would just subtract 10 from even scores and 11 from odd scores. So, take Nymph for example:

Str 10 - 10 = 0
Dex 17 - 11 = +6
Con 12 - 10 = +2
Int 16 - 10 = +6
Wis 17 - 11 = +6
Cha 19 - 11 = +8

D&D Nymph Ability Adjustments: +6 Dex,

+2 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +8 Cha

But looking in the Pathfinder Bestiary has me a bit confused.

Str 10 - 10 = 0
Dex 21 - 11 = +10
Con 18 - 10 = +8
Int 16 - 10 = +6
Wis 17 - 11 = +6
Cha 25 - 11 = +14

Apparent Pathfinder Nymph Ability Adjustments:

+10 Dex, +8 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +14 Cha

Does Pathfinder use the same 10/11 rule, and if so, does that mean Nymph as a character got that much stronger without a challenge rating increase? Or is there some new system for figuring out an Ability Score adjustment of a monster?

And on a side note, how would you adjust the challenge rating of a monster that has as many levels of spells as it's challenge rating if you removed all those spells and gave it a different class in a story? For example, what would a Nymph's Challenge rating be with no spells but everything else?

Thanks.

I hope I'm not hijacking this thread with the question, but, what about this template:

http://www.community3e.com/dn/monster/ShadowTemplate.pdf

Of all the games I have played, I had the most fun playing the shadow template (attached to a human race). It played well, but the most fun was when the DM decided that since I turn my equipment into shadow form with me, a construct I was in contact with in combat also turned into shadow form (I activated shadow form while it held me), so we had an incorporeal construct to fight and it was really funny. He also had me take damage when in direct contact with bright light, and lowered the challenge rating.

In any case, will this book have some details for monster templates such as this? Or could I still use a template like this? I would imagine that if you took one monster, and you put another monster's template on top of it, the challenge rating would be added together.

Although the shadow template is better suited for Assassins, I think an interesting combination would be a Minotaur Shadow Fighter. Would make it possible to melee incorporeal monsters.