ElectricMatthew's page

Have to admit, I know how the OP feels.

I've personally never banned anything that Paizo put out, but in a world that is increasingly populated with saurian shamans and vivisectionists and dual-cursed oracles and bloatmages... it's hard for me not to be a tad wistful for the days when all you needed was a core rulebook and a bestiary.

I don't know. It felt...cleaner. More streamlined.

I really dig this. Can't wait to pitch it to my players.

You know, you can go an awful long way by just making pounce a minimum 5th level evolution.

Nicely put.

To me it sounds like you are frustrated with summoners as a class, and haven't broken down why yet. You're appearing to me as being all over the place on what you're not satisfied with. Stat allocation, spells, eidolons activity time, eidolon customization, feeling eidolons are better than other class abilities (which it is because it's a larger portion of the summoners ability than comparable class abilities on other classes) etc. It's not that your rationale is arcane, it's that you're not being specific in what you want to resolve as far as I can tell.

It's my opinion that the summoner isn't OP compared to other classes if you're looking at potential. It's that they don't require a great deal of system mastery to be really good, so you get more disparity in a group (I believe someone else mentioned this). Take a look what you can do with cleric summoners or wizard summoners and a single level of diabolist if you want an example. (If you're using inner sea magic, i'd never bother with a summoner over a core caster.)

All I can say is you can't look at the eidolon in a vacuum comparing it to other class abilities. It won't result in a fair comparison.

Fair point. Perhaps I'm splashing too much opinion around. But here's the short version:

My only real issue with eidolons is that they are essentially omnipresent, with very situational exceptions (being ambushed while sleeping, not being able to fit through a door, etc).

I feel like addressing this singular issue would also address any other ancillary gripe about eidolons. Again, I'm a huge fan of the class. I just think having the eidolon constantly around raises a lot weird imbalances with other classes (ex. eidolon v wolf companion) and diminishes the class from a thematic standard (ex. they don't do a whole lot of summoning, people stop playing the summoner and start playing the eidolon, etc, etc, ad nauseam).

And additionally, it's just a nice bonus if it also makes pumping your prime casting stat more obligitory.

The fighters weapon training and weapon specialization (both combat abilities) are available 24/7. Eventually, they allow the fighter to surpass even the barbarian in DPR.

At the risk of this devolving into a fighter thread...

I'm totally fine with that. The fighter should be the king of DPR. Because in our current system, that's pretty much all they get.

It's not all about DPR though. I think most people feel that SHOULD be the domain of fighters and barbarians. It's about the other stuff you're packaging with solid DPR- superb action economy, perfect control of your cohort, two HP pools, early access to black tentacles and haste (not to mention whatever else you're getting with UMD).

Also, the no need for charisma, well if you plan on casting all spells, you need a 16 to cast all of your spells, and conjuration has a lot of SoS spells that DON'T allow for SR. And there is that Summon Monster SLA that is based off of CHA.

Granted. Most of my play lately has been PFS, so I guess I end up judging everything in the low level paradigm, where high level spells just don't happen. Obviously, if you expect to play up, you need to be able to cast something beyond second level.

I'm guilty of it too. My PFS summoner has 18 STR and 12 CHA, because it'll be a damn long time before I need to cast a 3rd level spell (and by then I'll be able to afford a headband).

Concerning the SLA, how often do most summoners really need it? In my experience, players seem to focus almost exclusively on one ability or the other (eidolon v summoning). So in lower level play, if you build around the eidolon, and it goes down, 3 or 4 summons ends up being more than enough.

Also, I don't know if you guys have encountered this... but I've noticed that more and more often, my players are putting more thought into their eidolons than their actual characters.

It drives me nuts. They basically play as if the eidolon is the PC, and the summoner is some silent, vestigial buff-bot.

Again, maybe this is just isolated to the jokers I play with, but rounds/day makes all of that insanity disappear.

If the original poster has thought a great deal about the subject and considered these and other points to get to his idea of cha mod +3 rounds of eidolon a day, then he should explain how he got there so people reading can be on the same page and offer some constructive input.

The rationale isn't really all that arcane. The eidolon is essentially a combat ability, right? (except in the insanely rare case where somebody builds it to scout or something, I guess)

In that respect, I think it should level in a fashion similar to other combat abilities, i.e. barbarian rage, cleric channeling, etc. With that in mind, the only question for me is whether to make the static bonus to CHA 3 or 4. I opted for 3 because it encourages more of an investment in charisma.

IMHO, as it stands, you can't even call a summoner SAD, because they don't actually require any particular ability score to function. While the monk gets off the bus with four requisite abilities, assigning ability scores on a summoner is freakin' luxury. Don't plan to cast spells with a saving throw? Eh, 12 CHA oughta do it... I don't think it's too much to ask that at least ONE score that is compulsory.

ElectricMatthew wrote:

Anyone have an opinion? Gimme yo thoughts.

Terrible fix, I'm always against x/day abilities, so I may be a bit biased but here's my logic. The thing is the barbarian rages as a free action and quickly is able to rage effectively every round of every combat. Summoning as a full round action that then last 3+(Charisma+levelx2) does eventually reach a point its all day, but really your just forcing him to use his summon monster SLA more often to remain action economy effective. The eidolon is effectively a build your own summon monster that the summoner always has with him as a buddy. Even if you push it to a full round to use his normal SLA you've essentially forced him to waste at least one round every combat summoning something in; Which is a little on the boring side, no? You've also taken away a lot of the potential for the eidolon to be a friend to the summoner, or even as a roleplay prop, which I think is far worse than anything.

Awesome reply. Here's my thinking on this. I can't help but compare the eidolon to other types of followers (essentially animal companions, familiars, and to some extent, cohorts). One of my frustrations is just how embarrassingly superior the eidolon is to other 'pet' abilities.

1.) You get to build the thing to your exact specifications, feats included.

2.) You get perfect telepathic communication and control over it from level one, unlike the wizard who has level into the ability to speak with his hawk, or the druid that has invest points into handle animal.

3.) There is essentially zero risk to using it in combat. It can't actually die, man.

This really isn't to say that I want to change THESE things, but I think these advantages are all relatively ameliorated in rounds/day situation.

Now using it in RP? Well, I suppose you got me on that one. But I honestly don't think it has to diminish either character. You can still put the same amount of love into their collective backstory, it just wouldn't be considered a party member.

Or I have enough system mastery to build characters of other classes that are equal to or better than a summoner and his eidolon.

Fair 'nuff. But what happens when you apply that same system mastery to the summoner?

I don't see the point of summoners without, or extremely limited uses of, Eidolons. Eidolons are the class feature, not the summons. Take eidolons away and you're just a crummy wizard that gets free summon monsters. I'd take a wizard or cleric over a summoner without the Eidolon.

I definitely don't want to take eidolons out of the picture, because they're obviously the reason the class is fun to build. I'm just hoping to rebalance them a bit, especially at low levels.

I think it'd be nice if a summoner had to be a little more discriminating in when he actually activates his eidolon, again, like a low level barbarian who isn't sure how many encounters he'll face that day.

Plus, it'll give their SLA more of a purpose (instead of just being plan B).

...I guess this means everyone agrees with me ;)

I always appreciate more options for animal companions and familiars.

And it's really, REALLY hard to overstate the importance of good art.

Okay, so I should probably preface this by saying that I love summoners. Conceptually fantastic, fun to build, and fun to play. But it's really no secret that they are exhibit 1A in the case for power creep in PF. In the last home game that I participated in, three players showed up with summoners.

Three. In a party of six.

And honestly, who could blame a player for being drawn to summoners? Double the HP. Double the actions. Quadruple the attacks. Flanking bonuses at will. Amazing spellcasting potential. They even get every knowledge skill for some damn reason.

Bearing that in mind, I think I've stumbled on to the simplest and most profoundly fair fix for summoners: make the eidolon only available a certain number of rounds per day. Shall we say, CHA + 3 rounds per day, with an extra 2 rounds each level? And just make it a full round to summon it. Bam.

I don't know if anyone has ever proposed this on the here, but mechanically, it only seems fair. Barbarians can't rage for 16 hours straight, bards can't perform for 16 hours straight, but the signature ability of the summoner is essentially limitless. (Even in a rounds/day format, your basic eidolon beats the pants off of those other two abilities.)

It would be an enormous improvement thematically too. I mean, they're called summoners, but how often do they actually SUMMON?? Master summoner notwithstanding, every summoner I see just has the damn thing hanging out all the time. Far cooler I think, would be the mage that's forced to conjure his personal combat avatar in the midst of an intense battle, rather than the guy who struts around all day with a bizarre extra party member.

Anyone have an opinion? Gimme yo thoughts.

I find myself bringing this one up constantly...

You can't use acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced by armor or encumbrance.