Ebonstone's page

We're enjoying the Ap so far, with 6 players. Instead of doing a lot of rewriting on my end, what I did was start the players off with the young character rules and npc classes to represent untrained teenagers (and two took the young template and are playing as children). It gave it very much a Chronicles of Narnia/ Dark Fairy tale feel and play. After they got the mantle of the Black Rider they got to slowly swap out npc levels for class levels until now at 4th level they are all pc classes. I am still leaving them one level below the recommended pc level at each stage of the game so that the encounters continue to be appropriate, and it seems to be working well.

However, action economy does catch up even with weaker characters, so adding mobs or mooks with cc abilities helps.

After considering these many thoughtful posts: another vote for Priest. At least the 1/2 BAB with lots of spells and lots of extra metamagic/crafting/channelling feats, more skills, and no armor.

I'm not sure how specialization would look: a hybrid of schools/domains? I think it would need access to some better damage spells than the cleric list currently offers however, to make up for the loss of combat capability. Maybe the school/domains would give bonus spells of an appropriate type or there would be a mechanic to allow dipping into arcane spells. Something to make it different from oracle as well.

I do like it when each core class has a unique but comparable mechanic that defines it, and a squishy priest could certainly do that.
One idea: a mechanic similar to the Summoner but focused on Planar Binding of outsiders ("Intercessors?") that could be used regularly (as opposed to a familiar which would be out of place) like a druid's companion, paladin's mount, summoner's eidolon, etc. to help keep the priest safe or do his/her bidding.

One last idea: mirror the arcanist approach to spells: you can spontaneously cast any spell you've prepared for that day. Again, just to be different--I'm not sold on it. But it would make a priest a more versatile caster than just having spontaneous cure spells.

Results of the Black Friday ACG playtest (DM's perspective):
1) Brawlers and Bloodragers could dish out serious damage but were a bit squishy and could be taken down fast. The Brawler's flexible access to feats is really cool, but requires some serious planning to optimize.
2) Swashbuckler is no joke. Had some really neat abilities and one of our group built one that could reach an insane AC (as long as dex bonus in play). Another could dish out good damage but was squishy.
3) Arcanist revised had some really DM annoying abilities like counterspell and was very tricksy. If I had to play another caster I'd probably try this next.
4) I liked the shamans a lot. Built four different version to try them out with each as spell/heal support to melee. Sending in familiars to heal front-liners was effective. I would like to try a melee build now too to see how they stand up.
5) Warpriests were tough enough to hold their own as well. Made a group that worked together in formation with teamwork feats and healed each other, keeping them going strong and killing one PC bloodrager in the mix. Fun.
6) Hunters were a little disappointing but probably my build was suboptimal. I didn't see how it's particularly better/different than a druid/ranger multi-class. They really didn't have the combat abilities to compare with other classes so much.
7) Slayers did as well as expected, but not too many surprises.
8) Investigator did well under the situation (mainly a combat playtest) and I'd like seeing one in action all around. The talent to share the insight bonus vs enemies was very useful.
9) Skalds meh. Colorful support and distraction.

kewl.

I thought I read somewhere that the ACG would be available on Herolab during the playtest, but I haven't seen it yet. Is it not available yet or do i just not know how to update things properly? Hoping to do a playtest on Thanksgiving weekend and a quick build option would be awesome.

Having run a wonderful RotRL game recently, my one suggestion for future designs is to consider having a multi-stage boss fight at the climax of each module. It can be done by the clever DM but it would be even more helpful if it were designed that way. Often bosses and even interesting sub-bosses are presented alone or maybe in a pair. Even CR +5 enemies are not much of a threat to an optimized band of 4-5 players who may have had the chance to recharge or recover and have effectively 4 actions per round vs 1.

For example, the fight with Nualia might be really epic of she had some or most of her minions all with her, instead of picking them off one by one through Thistletop. I'm an old timer, and my favorite series was the 1e Slavelords. Best boss fights ever!

I made the final assault on Karzoug's tower a staged progression, with reinforcements arriving every few rounds. It'd be nice to see AP's include those kind of guidelines and builds. (Forgive me if they have started doing so more recently and I was unaware.)

Karzoug himself would be more interesting not as a straight fight but in stages as well, in which you have to use different stategies or face different obstacles/powers just to get him down to a place he's actually vulnerable. I admit a little influence from WOW here, but hey, it makes sense. In my game the Paladin tanked him while the Torag cleric worked on breaking the Soul lens, so it kind of worked that way, but it could have been better.

Playing CC now and played in Ravenloft setting for a couple years back in the days of 2e. Both are very fun. Specifically, Castle Ravenloft is still one of the coolest dungeon designs. One of my biggest beefs with Paizo modules is scrimping on dungeon sizes/scales. It seems like areas are designed more to fit within the one or half page format of the AP then they are to reflect the grandeur of the locale. Some fights take place in ridiculously cramped quarters. Ravenloft was one of the first really good attempts at approximating a large, 3D expansive dungeon. Maybe paizo should consider a two page inside cover or centerfold dungeon design.

mplindustries wrote:

Jeremiziah wrote:

In general, though, I dislike the concept of Divine wands.

Every cure spell is on the Bard and Witch list--they're not strictly divine.

Oddly enough, my experience with DM's who have nostalgia for the old days of 1e/2e (and especially those who try to make 3.5/PF feel like that game) are completely oblivious to Bardic healing powers, and have never even looked at the witch class. And they HATE the idea that PC's could obtain an item they wanted, versus one that got dropped.

Alot of guys who have been playing for 25+ years just assume they can jump in with only a basic sweep of the rules. You can usually spot them when you start hearing about how crafting rules are broken, when they ask about how to run a "low magic" game in pathfinder, or when they complain about a 750gp wand "Breaking" their game.

Old-timer here guilty as charged!

Actually, having survived the days of 1e AD&D, I like the freedom in pf to not have to have a healbot cleric. If you're a DM who likes to bring the pain, all you have to do is limit the gp and treasure reward. Instant low magic, unbroken game again!

I've been mulling over the Sword and Pistol feat (and the related prerequisite feat snap shot)for the classic musketeer/swashbuckler build, and find it troubled. My main problem is the very expensive buy-in of feats.
First of all, i think i would drop Snap Shot as a prereq for Sword and Pistol. Why, because with most one hand firearms and all crossbows you're not going to get to shoot and strike every round because of the need for a free hand to reload (only a revolver does not require a free hand). (There are other threads dealing with tricks around this but none are particularly conceptually appealing and require magic item workarounds), so the feat is already extremely limited in application. Likewise even Rapid Shot is not particular helpful either for the same reason. Precise shot or combat expertise could be alternate requirements, since they deal with melee, or Rapid Reload, since it deals with crossbows and firearms.

As for Snap Shot, it seems to me it would make more sense to drop weapon focus out of the tree and replace it with Combat Reflexes and Weapon Proficiency (firearms pr crossbow). That way Snap Shot is more useful all around. The way firearms are built it's likely that as your character levels up they will want to use better guns or a mix and match of types. This feat limits them to only one specific weapon, which really doesn't make that much sense. The feat is more about reflexes than focus anyway.

Of course, Sword and Pistol assumes you want to also have Snap Shot, so my suggestions might make it harder to do both!

What do you all think?

I take it no one has found an answer for the question of scale?

a pair of +1 holy pistols.

[I tend to run cohorts using PC stats and gear, but I also tend to be a pretty nice GM who likes PCs to feel like they're important. That said, the cohort gets run as an NPC, especially during combat, so the player doesn't specifically get additional actions.]

I let the players run their cohorts. too much work for me! That said, i like to eat cohorts.

I am running my group in Runelords 5 and am on my way to Runeforge as well.

I know what you mean about the maps. In general, I have found the dungeon maps in paizio products under-whelming. While beautifully illustrated, they seemed designed with the priority of fitting into a half page. The areas for major boss fights are often restrictively small. Runeforge needs to blow that all out of the water. i'd recommend working up only the areas of encounters and not getting bogged down into how all the passages connect.

I also rely heavily on miniatures for the battles and am looking forward to adapting a dark eldar army from Warhammer 40k to fit the style of the ancient thassilonians. Decadent and wicked and given to inflicting pain, they will give the dungeon a feel that is both alien and ancient, high fantasy yet also kind of truly advanced lost civilization. I'm using Mandrakes for undead, Wyches for eldritch knights/magus, Incubi for armored sin spawn, Scourges for alu-demons, etc.

Using the new stuff I altered the halls of wrath to be a den of Magus types, though eldritch knight can be just as good. Similarly, the sloth halls could be converted to a bastion of summoners.

For sloth I envision an area in which magic does all the work for you. Teleporters and gates weave the place together so you need not spend much effort. Summoned creatures do all the work. However, the fact that they have been taken out in mage battles suggests some damage to the system with chaotic effects. I honestly thought it was paizo's idea of a joke/pun to be too lazy to bother designing this area which could be so cool.

if chaper magic items is a problem the simplest answer is to limit the amount of loot received. Low fantasy fans should like poorer economies anyway. Wow, GM's have the power of the purse strings!

I miss Dark Sun where sometimes a skin of water was a treasured treasure.

Wasn't 2nd edition arquebus that used a mechanic that translates to armor bonus= DR vs. shot? If you up the damage on the gun but deduct armor bonuses (natural, armor, shield) as DR it might reflect better. Of course, one could argue that it should be used that way for all attacks... (wasn't star wars rpg like that?)

As a hunter with personal experience of moving targets, flat footed should only be used if the target is really flat-footed such as unaware of the danger or unable to move defensively.

booger=boy wrote:

wow, the historical roots thinger gets a little weirder. I'm checking out a description of 2nd classes and it mentions that classes were reduced to 4 metaclasses: Warrior, Wizard, Priest and Rogue. According to this classes were variations on these bases. I'm not an expert on Archetypes but it sounds similiar. Anyone got an idea on this one?

I didn't see anything that sounded prestigey, but so what? There could be one waiting to be found!

Yeah, I found my Players Handbook and it sounds like the Bard description is right. Anyone check out the funny illustrations in the spell section? They were quite humorous. The dancing Umber Hulk was good and so was the Fighter who had his path/string being rewound by a troll.

In 2nd ed, the prestige class idea seems have been folded into "kits" which were variant versions of core classes available through the handbooks.

(Yes--and I'm loving it. Here's a little backstory i wrote to help explain the events that led to the adventure. Each part was revealed in flashbacks as the party explored Sigreir's Pledge.)

Lay of Helrun

I. She cradles his head in her lap, a broken helm sits to the side, rent by dragon’s claw, on the steps below the great forge-altar of Sigreir’s pledge.

“I still cannot believe you accepted their help, my love. I fear for you,” she caresses his red braids in one hand while looking thoughtfully towards the altar. A brilliant gleam from the jewel upon her breast catches the light as she leans down to kiss his beleaguered brow.

“They demanded a king’s ransom,” he frowns, “but what good is a ransom to a king with no kingdom. “It was a high price. But at least now I am able to preserve that which is most valuable to me.” He says, reaching a bloodied arm up to support the one that cradles him. “And now that I am king, we can be together. At last.”

“There is much that needs to be done before that, my lord Ezelgar,” she smiles, “I am still Forge priestess of the Pledge, and the daughters of Sigreir must be ready to help you rebuild your kingdom. You cannot trust your new allies to provide the healing and stone work that the sisterhood can. It must have been a devil’s deal, but knowing your crafty tongue, I dare not surmise which the devil was.” Her tone is teasing, even though earnest. Besides,” she scolds, “my vows are not so easily swept aside.”

The king smirks and tries to rise, a look of pain shooting across his grin. “Your gift has already been paid for, and you are not like the others,” The king says, his hand lowering to her kilted thigh in an intimate caress, letting it linger there, until she, blushing, brushes it aside. “There will be time for vows later. For now, let us think of us.” He reaches forward to kiss her, gently brushing aside her long blonde braids that hang from her head like a wedding veil. Just as their lips are about to meet, a thunderous boom from deep within the mountain shakes the temple. Several others follow quickly even as the priestess struggles to rise.

A pledge maiden rushes into the temple, “Forge-Mother Helrun, the Pledge is breached!”

The Priestess limps heavily down one of the steps, weighed down by her fears and the injured leg the king had just been caressing. “Is it… the dragon? Has it survived? And returned?”

“No Mother, but there is smoke, and poisons.” Another explosion rocks the temple. “And stone-thunder.”

“Mistbreathers!” The name itself is a curse. She turns to look at the King who is now lifting himself to stand, a look of hurt and confusion on his face. “Your new allies have betrayed you. I told you they would not release their grudge so easily.”

The King reaches for his possessions, seeking to don equipment for the fight but wheezing from broken ribs as he bends to gather his armor. Two very loud thunderings, this time closer, break his efforts. They look at each other, realizing the truth, the enemy is inside, and closing. “There is no time,” he says, and with a grimace hefts his great axe.

“Folgritta, find as many of the sisters as you can and flee. If you can reach the vault of mercy hide there—you will be saved—and you may find some thing there to help us.”

The King closes with his love and holds her hands in his. “They come for the Heartstone, no doubt, not just revenge. They will want the prize you wear. Let us hide it in the stone from which it was taken before they come. You have the means. I will hold them off if they come.”

They rush to the back of the great bronze altar to the smooth marble wall polished from the stone of the mountain itself. Both limp though, he from his wounds and she from her lifelong injury—the price of the stone mystery. In the shadow of the altar she leans against the stone, praying intently that Folgrit the watchful mother, wife of Torag, help protect her charges, the widows and orphans of the Pledge. Sounds of combat begin to echo from the chamber hall just outside the temple proper, as the stone slowly swallows her entire form with little more than a whisper as she meditates.

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II. The king turns to face the aggressor as the temple doors are blasted open by Mistbreather magic, the remains of two battle sisters splashing into the room with them. Several stealthy figures push in, going to hide behind the great columns while one strides in directly and purposefully, an array of battle gear hanging from his frame, a smoking wandrifle cradled in arm.

“Fleshdrinker.” The King speaks the name as he matches the entering stride, without betraying any sign of injury, and stands before the altar.

“My King,” says the Mistbreather clanhead, smiling, while eyes take in all the surroundings. “Where is the Oracle?” Shadowy figures advance along the sides of the chamber, the glint of barrel and quarrel visible in the light of the dwarf lamps high above.

“She was never part of the deal, Mistbreather, you have come in vain. She has already fled through stone.”

“That is unfortunate, my King. The heartstone would have been a sweet prize for my forefather’s shame. But you always had a serpent’s tongue and an angel’s face.” He makes a quick motion with one hand and the shadows recede. Once gone, and satisfied of their privacy, the treacherous cipher returns his gaze to the king. “There will be no witnesses now, My liege.”

A whispering sound is heard behind them as the stone begins to shift again, the Oracle’s spell coming to its end. The King turns between the wall and his visitor, a look of panic momentarily fleeting across the eyes, but it is enough for the well trained killer.

“I told you she would never leave you. Cripples cling to the hope that those they love will never abandon them.” Fleshdrinker seems to be enjoying the torment he now sees upon his Lord’s face. “Here,” he says as he throws the king a silver flask from his gear, “or would you like me to do it?”

Ezelgar scowls as he catches the item and limps to the wall, just as Helrun begins to emerge from it. He opens the flask and pours its contents upon the stone which crackle with sudden splinters as the stone strains against the competing forces at work upon it.

The priestess’ head and upper arms emerge from the stone suddenly with a sudden burst of force, surprising both King and interloper. But she screams in pain as her slow and crippled lower body is unable to push itself out of the stone that is hardening around her.

“Ezelgar help!” she cries out, tears from the agony clouding her eyes so she does not see the Mistbreather silently approaching. Ezelgar can only step back in shock as he witnesses the effects of his treachery upon her already broken body. “Ezelgar, what have you done?” she wails as she begins to see what has happened. “I can’t move. How is this so?” Ezelgar can only fall to his knee, leaning heavily on the shaft of his axe.

Shards of stone that broke from the wall before it set into solid form again crunch under the boot of the one called by his cipher name “Fleshdrinker.” He seems to be looking up at the writhing priestess, marveling at the success of his own work, nodding in appreciation at both the efficiency of the alchemy and the pain it is inflicting on his enemy.

“Don’t be troubled, my Lord. You have a greater power now at your disposal. You see how the prayers of mere gods bow before the laws of nature we have unlocked in our time of exile? You don’t need her anymore to be king. Glimmerhold will never again be crippled by these wenches again.” He gives one of her braids an unceremonious yank, half-heartedly testing the hold that the stone has on her. “Now finish it, and begin your reign as the greatest king Glimmerhold has ever known.”

The King rises again from his knee, and with what strength remains, lifts his axe. He cannot look her in the face as he she, quiet know but flooded with tears, looks for a sign of his love.

“My love, why?” He hesitates at her voice, his strength falters and the axe head slides down to clank among the shards.

“I see, my Lord. To rule as a King requires hard decisions. It is better to let others take these burdens upon them. You still need us. You will always need us. We are your ever faithful servants, as per our agreement.” The cipher steps forward to take up the king’s axe from him, but just as he does so the king pivots lightly on one foot, his arm twisting around the haft. The sound of a metallic spring is heard as the spear tip comes fully free of the haft. He falls backward with it, into the surprised Mistbreather, plunging the blade deep into his ribs under the breastplate. They tumble down the steps, the urgrosh making a deeper mess of the lungs and closing on the heart in the fall. The king is also cut by his own blade, but it is the spear tip that has the deathblade poison, and even the cipher-alchemist’s training cannot save him now.

The king’s man tries to laugh but blood gurgles out of his mouth as his face grows pale from the poisoned wound. He spits and the tainted blood sizzles upon his beard. “You think this is the end, Ezelgar? You think you can fool my brethren for long?” He convulses and seizes his belly, the heavy wargear stills trapped uncomfortably around the weapon haft. “This grudge has just begun. Is it not written, ‘A Rough beast shall eat you all?’” he laughs once more as Ezelgar steps forward, himself bleeding from the side, and yanks the weapons down and out, spilling the rest of the servant’s lifesblood on the temple floor. But as he does so he cannot miss the tell-tale off-time ticking of the Mistbreather bomb that the cipher triggered in his last death throe.

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III. The explosive acidic burst destroys the evidence of the King’s murder, but also the remedy for his treachery, no stone salve to free his love remains, melting it away even as it drinks up the flesh of the one who invented both traps. The King himself, though wounded remains light on his feet manages to dive into one of the clean pools of the temple as the fire spreads across the room above. The water is cleansing, the last bits of its healing power washing and healing his wound, so that he has strength once again at least to crawl to his love, trapped in the wall of her mountain’s heart.

She remains trapped, partially submerged in living stone itself. “Help me” she barely whispers, the pain of breathing itself is evident.

He can barely reach her, her body having begun to emerge much higher than the floor when the transformation struck. He reaches up to her hand, a loose braid dangling down, two others partly trapped in the stone and holding her head up to survey the chamber and what has transpired. Sounds of slaughter and lamentation can be heard from the chambers of the monastery. The Mistbreathers are having their revenge. Though Ezelgar touches her hand, she does not respond.

“What have you done?” her eyes, now clear and hot but not from tears look down upon him. A terrible look comes upon her face. “You have done this.”

The king now weeps, bowing his head, childishly and cowardly. “I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry.” He cannot even bring himself to justify his deeds. He can manufacture no excuse.

The sounds of Mistbreather scouts calling for their captain echo into the room from the tunnel beyond.

“They must not find you. They will kill you.” The king seems mad. “I will tell them that Fleshdrinker killed you but that your magic slew him as well. I, I shall protect you from them. I shall hide you…” He tumbles away from her burning gaze and gathers his gear, picking up a last remnant of the Mistbreather chief to give credence to his story. He looks back once more, her terrible visage now shrouded by smoke and shadow. “I will come for you, Helrun, I will come for you.”

IV. She watches him leave. She does not hear his lies and his devil’s tongue. Her heart is broken. She barely notices it when the Mistbreather sappers blow the tunnel, sealing her in her temple. She weeps for a time, in spite of the pain.

Her prayers sustain her. She forgives Ezelgar in her heart. And she prays. And she waits.

And the days go by. And she prays and she waits.

And the weeks go by. And she prays, and she waits.

And the years go by. And still she prays, and still she waits.

And Ezelgar never comes. And so she prays. And so she waits. But she no longer forgives. And now her prays are being heard.

“You cannot stop what is coming.”

This cannot come out soon enough. I'm looking at running Seven Swords in May!

For what it's worth: I'm working one of the PC's who began at 1st level as already an ex-paladin, redeemed himself (His story was that he was one of Sandpoint's orphans who had loved Nualia Tobyn from afar and lost his faith at her apparent death in the fire), and has returned to paladinhood. He met Paralictor Darean Halst in Magnimar who revealed indirectly that he too was a Paladin. The Paralictor will be recruiting him.

Anyway, based on the idea that they serve no deities, the back story of the order of the Nail that i will use is that they represent a transformation of the last Knights of Aroden (such as Ilusr, founder of Ilsurian) who came to believe that at the death of their gods no gods were needed. Rather, the secret is that Aroden died to set men free from the slavish worship of polytheism to pursue their own path of Ascendence. The order now studies the rigid laws of Hell to help free Varisia from the soul-bondage to evil forces (such as that of the Runelord's Sihedron rituals) and to bring about the desctruction of those who are cheating hell of its due by avoiding eternal justice (such as Xanesha, for instance, and Karzoug, as he is revealed).

This was one way to make sense of LG Paladins in a Hellknight order.

On sourcebooks: My beef for the last few years is that most of what WOTC produced seemed to be fairly trite and useless garbage. Maybe 2-4 pages in each book were really creative and usable. I got hooked on Paizo because of the quality, in Dungeon magazine. The Adventure Path concept is great, and the stories being told are excellent. That is what IMO has been lacking from the industry overall--great stories. Great characters, great locations, great villains, great big pictures. If Paizo goes the way of producing rulebooks ever few months (and as a publisher, you got to make a product and sell it, I understand), I hope you will continue to redefine the standards for the whole industry. Don't treat us like morons is all we ask. 4e is for that audience.

Psionics: Yes, please rescue them from 3e oblivion! My favorite system was the one developed for DarkSun in 2e with the mental attack rolls and mental ac's. I think such a system would work very easily now (attacking one's saves as a DC perhaps, like force powers on Star Wars Saga). The 3e version that did ability damage was too cumbersome in my opinion--one would have to recalculate so much over the course of combat. I also didn't like how it was reduced to basically just another form of magic. The cool thing about 2e psionics was that power progression didn't work like spells at all and a low-level psionicist would have at least one or two nifty abilities that spellcasters wouldn't get until much later. It should feel different, look different, smell different. And what's with those stupid crystals? At least Gygax's almost impossible to use version from 1e let you blow people's heads up (a la "Scanners"), not sound like a simpering new ager.

So, maybe I'm the odd one but I like not only the original expertise but also the Superior Expertise feat as well that allowed you to go as high as your BAB in adjustment, as well as the same idea for Power Attack. This allowed for some very exciting combat scenes. Its the only way to sufficiently accomodate the swashbuckling style of lightly or un-armored combatants, especially at high level. It also makes the feats the most worthwhile.