EL's page

I was all for buying one but the more I read of the PDF stuff the less I think it will be for me. I'm not knocking it, alot of stuff I dig but somethings I just don't get.

I like what was done with Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics. I like the newest revision of the races. I like the skill system they are now going with as the first Alpha skill system put me in a definate not for me column.

I just don't get all the power ups to the classes. I should rephrase I get it, Wiz, sor, clr, we got to level the playing field but some I just think are too much. Two Rogues seem like they could wipe the floor with two Fighters. That just seems wrong. Barbarians abilities for Raging seem out of left field. Low light vision from raging, Darkvision... What is that about?

I'm not saying I won't buy it, but a prebuy seems unlikely at this point.

The simple effective fix for this is to just remove the penalty for cross class purchases but leave the cap on total ranks. All this did in playtests I've run is give some characters a wider array of skills than they would normally have (which Alpha was doing anyway). If that is a power creep issue (which it can be with a reduced skill list since I used the normal 3.5 list I haven't tested that fact fully) it can easily be solved with lowering the skill points given to each class. As far as backwards comp goes you might have to add some skill points to NPC's or monsters or you could just leave them alone since it really didn't matter in the playtest I ran. Sure the villians could have been a couple of ranks sneakier or maybe had more knowledge skills, etc. but in the long run if they were that important to my game I'd have restated them. Leaving the cap I believe still makes it so classes to borrow someone elses wording don't bleed into each other since equal level characters can't be equal in skills they don't share for thier classes without multiclassing.

IE
spellcraft for a third level wizard max rank 6
spellcraft for a third level fighter max rank 3
spllcraft for a 2lvl fighter / 1st lvl wizard 6

that is fair IMHO since the fighter gave up a whole fighter level to gain that ability. Skills don't come up as often and if someone wants to be a powergamer and take a level of rogue to up thier max ranks I don't think it is that big a deal. Especially when you consider that even a fighter 3/ rogue 1 won't be as skilled as a rogue 4 simply because of the lack of skill points.

Personally I agree with you DeadDM. In fact the latest 3.5 books from WOTC were all about customization. The game I play in on sundays when the PHB2 came out let us trade class skills for cross class skills as long as the number was the same with DM's approval as final say and I have been playing my fighter who is quite good at spot and listen but not so great at ride or intimidate for quite sometime now. It isn't for everyone though for whatever reasons they have. It isn't a big deal to house rule or print an optional rule of in the PFRPG book. All that really needs to be done to fix the skill system is drop the different costs for class v. cross class skills. If it was up to me that is how it would be done. I playtested it in my own game and had no problems or complaints. (I didn't drop cross class skills completely as some of the more skill oriented PC's didn't want it.)

edit: just read Deaddm post above (I'm a slow typer I guess) which makes mine kind of redundant but y'all get the drift. :)

Nice fighter build pres man. does prove the point that you can be a sneaky fighter with out becoming useless.

Agreed. It also shows that the only problem with the old skill system is doing the math of Class vs. Cross Class points spent. The simple effective fix for this is to just remove the penalty for cross class purchases but leave the cap on total ranks. All this did in playtests I've run is give some characters a wider array of skills than they would normally have (which Alpha was doing anyway). If that is a power creep issue (which it can be with a reduced skill list since I used the normal 3.5 list I haven't tested that fact fully) it can easily be solved with lowering the skill points given to each class. As far as backwards comp goes you might have to add some skill points to NPC's or monsters or you could just leave them alone since it really didn't matter in the playtest I ran. Sure the villians could have been a couple of ranks sneakier or maybe had more knowledge skills, etc. but in the long run if they were that important to my game I'd have restated them. Leaving the cap I believe still makes it so classes to borrow someone elses wording don't bleed into each other since equal level characters can't be equal in skills they don't share for thier classes without multiclassing.

IE
spellcraft for a third level wizard max rank 6
spellcraft for a third level fighter max rank 3
spllcraft for a 2lvl fighter / 1st lvl wizard 6

that is fair IMHO since the fighter gave up a whole fighter level to gain that ability. Skills don't come up as often and if someone wants to be a powergamer and take a level of rogue to up thier max ranks I don't think it is that big a deal. Especially when you consider that even a fighter 3/ rogue 1 won't be as skilled as a rogue 4 simply because of the lack of skill points.

We ran into the grapple situation in our game last night and it ground combat to a halt. After talking with my gaming group, I have decided to keep the 3.5 grapple rules as being more realistic as opposed to having a grapple DC.

I'm with you. What is it that is so bad about the old grapple system? I would think that is the first thing that should be identified before trying to "fix it".

Grapple was never really an issue in any game I played in or DM'd.

Meepo I did enjoy your playtest summarry, between this and skills you do great work in the playtesting arena.

Blue_eyed_paladin wrote:

One thing I would suggest, to bring Stabilize up to being "good" rather than "vaguely useful"... let it be a close-range spell, don't make the cleric have to run around to heal everyone.

I like this idea very much. It could also work for the bleed (anti-stabilize) spell proposed elsewhere on this forum.

Well I didn't read the bleed spell but didn't the rogue have a similar ability? Seems like that would make it a great counter for that.

Wierd. I posted this and it appeared as the last post on page 7. This could become a double post when the boards finish hiccupping.

All in all, not a bad system, Nyco, but not for me.

The various 'SAGA style' systems all have less customization than skills. I feel like a bunch of people are telling me that we should drop pennies. They cost more to produce than they are worth, and nothing in the economy is affected if you round to the nearest .05

I want to keep pennies. I want to keep the smallest possible unit of skill currency so we can spend our $1.25 however we want. If that is 12 skills with 10 ranks and 1 with 5, or 5 skills with 24 ranks (at 21st level, of course) I'm fine with that. I like a choice, and I like the widest possible range of choices.

I'm right there with you. I really don't see the 3.5 skill system as broken. Everyone seems to think it takes to long to roll up characters but I've never had an issue as to me it is time well spent. Seems like all you have to do to fix that is reduce the cost of cross class skills to 1 and give less skill ranks per class.

I'm just not seeing the big problem.

Honestly, I like the new system. I run a bunch of email game and often see new players. Too often, I hear new players ask why would I want to specialize. Most Wizards that my players use, do not specialize.

gotta agree. Every game I've ever played in had no specialist casters.

I vote to keep skill points as well.

just tossing out an idea here

Leave humans as they are dropping the exta weapon prof.

change the half elf to have a
+2 to any (cannot apply to same ability as other +2)
+2 to any
-2 to any

taking away the free weapon prof. leave the rest the same.

stephan saraidarian wrote:

It doesn't seem like anyone is really complaining that the old skill system was broken just that it had a long involved prep time for DM's.

Allow me to be the first then! The OGL skill system is cumbersome and hard to navigate even for players. I keep a copy of my player's character sheets at every level and our fighter 2/bard 4 still doesn't have the right ranks. And one of my players is an accountant! The bard has so many synergies, feats boosting skills, racial skill bonuses, ability bonuses, mwk equipment bonuses, and magic item bonuses (both directly to skills and to abilities) that we've lost track of what her actual ranks ever were. We just did an audit of her skills two weeks ago and we were still off by two skill points afterwards. The problem comes from adding and subtracting in mid game when they gain or lose a modifying item. She has had at one time or another boots of elvenkind, cloak of elvenkind, a ring of jumping, a ring of swimming, gloves of dexterity, gauntlets of ogre power, boots of striding and springing, a climbing kit, a mwk instrument, a silk rope, etc. (She's never had all of these at once). Adding and subtracting all of these bonuses and figuring out what she spent as cross-class ranks rather than skill-ranks has made tracking her actual ranks a complete nightmare.

My players love the new system (though I have them using Jason's Scaled variant from the OP). At every level you never have to worry about calculating any of that and adding and subtracting for new or lost items is a lot less of a headache.

I'm sorry I should not have said it that way. You are not alone. Alot of other people seem to like that style although I am not one of them. The nice thing about it is if it is just put in the book as an optional rule it is easy for you to convert all the stuff they print to the option you like but if done in the reverse it is much more time consuming. As far as the math problems go most of that disappears just by removing the extra cost for cross class skills. You still have to deal with Feat, Magic, and ability changes to the skill totals in either style.

I'm fine with the above or the below.

Use the 3.5 system for skills with the revised skill list in alpha but remove class vs. cross class skills. All skills can be taken by all classes. What makes rogues so great at skills is the number of skill points they get over other classes. If we can agree that some skills like Disable device/open lock (yes I think those should go together) should be rogue skills we impose a feat requirement that a rogue gets as a function of thier class. This works much like Tracking.

For example anyone can take Disable device but to use it on any trap with a DC higher than 10 you need the feat Trap disarming.

Now if your fighter wants to use a feat to be able to disarm traps he can but he has less skill points so he is sacrificing something else to do it along with a feat which makes him a less capable fighter for diverting his attention from his profession.

As for DM's, well some DM's like statting up all of thier NPC's some don't. This screams optional rule. Perhaps something along the lines of a skill pool.

For example lets say you roll up an NPC that is just for a quick fight and you don't want to do all his skills. We take his skill total and create a skill pool. Lets say he has 100 skill points available. You set that aside. You run your combat and say you need to make a ride check, you make a quick decision based on how good you think he is at that skill (sounds random but as a DM your the only one who can answer that question) and subtract the number of ranks you grant him from his skill pool. Jot it down in case he survives and you reuse him later. If for some reason best flute player comes up in battle well apply the same logic as above. Anhy major NPC you'd probably want to stat up completely which actually won't be that bad since we dropped class/cross class skils which is the most agrivating part of skills.

Now we go back to humans and half elves and change that make a class skill ability to extra skill points for humans. You could do the same for half elves but personally I think the half elves and humans are still to similar. I'd change half elves to +2 to any, +2 to any, (cannot choose the same ability) and -2 to any.

This gives the customization many if not all players are looking for while reducing prep time for DM's. It is simple and easy in my humble opinion. I never really understood why Class skills was needed. Why on earth can't you have a perceptive fighter or a mage who can lie through his teeth just as good as any rogue. Again if a skill like spellcraft is needed to be separate use the feat system to seperate it out and give it as a free feat to the class you want to have it.
for example
Student of spells- without this feat your max rank in spellcraft can never exceed half your character level.

That is just my two cents from my limited gaming experience of 2nd edition on up plus whatever else I can get my hands on.

Keep skill points, use updated skill list, drop cross class fines or cross class altogether.

definately keep skill points though. :)

I don't know. To be honest, I'm starting to feel like there is a lot more theoretical arguement and lobbying here than there is trying to see if the game will run better or worse. I'd hate to see a system get dropped or modified before people even gave it a chance to work. I know Paizo wants to do what its fans want, but I also think we are starting to get into a wave of wish lists here instead of actually looking at what would make 3.5 run smoother.

It seems to me the only real complaint about the skill system is that it takes to long for DM's to roll up NPC's.

What gets traded off to correct that seems to be the customization that I personally love about 3.5 as far as skills go. The other system maybe nice to but it is less customizable and less backward compatiable.

Seems to me all that really needs to be done is use the revised skill list from pathfinder and either drop the addtional cost for cross class skills or like my suggestion a page or so ago drop cross class skills completely.

It doesn't seem like anyone is really complaining that the old skill system was broken just that it had a long involved prep time for DM's.

While the Pathfinder fixes that it then messes with what many players liked about the skill system and messes with backwards compatiablity.

Just Drop the extra cost or drop cross class skills completely. I mean what exactly would be the down side of that?

Here is my thinking on skills and please excuse if someone has already suggested this as I haven't finished reading this whole thread.

Use the 3.5 system for skills with the revised skill list in alpha but remove class vs. cross class skills. All skills can be taken by all classes. What makes rogues so great at skills is the number of skill points they get over other classes. If we can agree that some skills like Disable device/open lock (yes I think those should go together) should be rogue skills we impose a feat requirement that a rogue gets as a function of thier class. This works much like Tracking.

For example anyone can take Disable device but to use it on any trap with a DC higher than 10 you need the feat Trap disarming.

Now if your fighter wants to use a feat to be able to disarm traps he can but he has less skill points so he is sacrificing something else to do it along with a feat which makes him a less capable fighter for diverting his attention from his profession.

As for DM's, well some DM's like statting up all of thier NPC's some don't. This screams optional rule. Perhaps something along the lines of a skill pool.

For example lets say you roll up an NPC that is just for a quick fight and you don't want to do all his skills. We take his skill total and create a skill pool. Lets say he has 100 skill points available. You set that aside. You run your combat and say you need to make a ride check, you make a quick decision based on how good you think he is at that skill (sounds random but as a DM your the only one who can answer that question) and subtract the number of ranks you grant him from his skill pool. Jot it down in case he survives and you reuse him later. If for some reason best flute player comes up in battle well apply the same logic as above. Anhy major NPC you'd probably want to stat up completely which actually won't be that bad since we dropped class/cross class skils which is the most agrivating part of skills.

Now we go back to humans and half elves and change that make a class skill ability to extra skill points for humans. You could do the same for half elves but personally I think the half elves and humans are still to similar. I'd change half elves to +2 to any, +2 to any, (cannot choose the same ability) and -2 to any.

This gives the customization many if not all players are looking for while reducing prep time for DM's. It is simple and easy in my humble opinion. I never really understood why Class skills was needed. Why on earth can't you have a perceptive fighter or a mage who can lie through his teeth just as good as any rogue. Again if a skill like spellcraft is needed to be separate use the feat system to seperate it out and give it as a free feat to the class you want to have it.
for example
Student of spells- without this feat your max rank in spellcraft can never exceed half your character level.

That is just my two cents from my limited gaming experience of 2nd edition on up plus whatever else I can get my hands on.