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Now we're thinking with
Although I agree with the proposal, I still think the 10-minute Quarry restriction needs to be removed, and it needs to work with any humanoid creature. However, creature parts could be restricted to creatures that don't use or carry items, making only this type of creature valid for trophies, but the combat abilities universally functional. To be clear, I do agree with you! I don't think quarry should be 10 minutes and I do think that monster lore should be allowed with humanoids - you can already Mark Quarry on any creature as far as I can tell regardless of type.
Couldn't agree more exequiel, I like Slayer significantly more than Daredevil but I think it needs to do more with the trophies to really stand out. Tools are cool, but I'd rather they emphasize the Trophy system.
So... this idea would lead to this class essentially becoming another Kineticist. and a lot of abilities would be gated behind VERY specific campaigns or your DM choosing to add them into your setting. Personally I don't see this as an issue. Plenty of monsters have really interesting and unique abilities. Kineticist is also among the most mechanically interesting clssses - if its not number one in that regard with its only major drawback being that its primary mechanics have not been supported by the content that's come out since due to its impulses not counting as either strike or spell. The way I envision this potential trophy change, Slayers would still be a martial class with all that entails but with a grab bag of monster tricks. If we wanted to prevent cheese and force players to interact more often/carefully with the system, we could fo a thing where the trophies abilities wear off after a certain number of uses with maybe a high level or even capstone that lets you do it more often. I'm in agreement with Cellion about it more or less being in line with summon spells. Letting you use a monster (or in this case a monsters ability) to do a thing. I think it's a neat concept, and would absolutely give the Slayer a unique identity to the Ranger, Gator, and Thaumaturge.
So I like the concept of the Slayer. I think it has nice flavor, obviously the tools could use some reworking to bring them all roughly in line with each other, mark quarry probably shouldn't be 10 minutes, etc. etc. Possibly an unpopular opinion I'm about to share, but... I think Paizo should just get wild with this. Trophies should be more like the chymists eye. Where you get to steal a specific ability or trait from a monster depending on which tool you picked. Maybe that could justify the 10 minute timer on it. Maybe make it a feat tree where you can unlock more types of trophies as you go on. I think the trophy system is inspiring and I think it needs some cooking. Let me use the head of a Medusa to turn people to stone, let me take the eye of a cyclops to get their Flash of Insight, stuff like that. C'mon Paizo. Make this weird.
There doesn't need to be, but I lament other character concepts which are not currently well supported mechanically, languishing while the Daredevil is being printed. Being honest, while I do give Paizo credit for a lot of things and tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, I'm inclined to agree that we didn't quite need Daredevil. Not that I don't think it looks neat, or that I think it should be a class archetype. But it's not... necessary. I'd rather a primal gish or something with different flavor. Would I be happy changing the flavor of Daredevil? Of course. Flavor is free and I can pull off a wrestler quite nicely with it. But I could already sorta do a wrestler with other classes. Not perfectly, but you get the idea. I'm happy with Slayer, as it fulfills one class fantasy I couldn't do before bare minimum and as I continue to think on it, I think it's shaping into my favorite class flavor in the system. But we didn't need Daredevil right now
Agreed. I like the flavor, but the mechanics need a massive buff. Shooting daggers out of a crossbow is objectively cool, but they should get the benefits of the crossbows property runes bare minimum.
While I don't agree that Slayer lacks identity, I do agree that trophies should do significantly more. If for no other reason than I think more powerful and varied effects on Trophies would just be more fun. I personally also think tools could be heavily expanded and improved, but if no one gets to that thread before me, I'll make it. I think you should at least have a trophy feat tree with some basic monster abilities baked in. Like a trophy with petrifying gaze from slaying a Medusa or Basilisk. This could be overpowered but I'm just spitballing based on what I feel the class fantasy should offer.
Definitely intended to include giants, given they're listed as viable trophy options. Good catch, John.
Serious Dungeon Crawler Carl vibes, here! Daredevil could definitely be a class in that world.Just make sure she has her walker! I hadn't even considered a DCC build! Now I'm even more excited!
Does anyone here even like this game at this point? I swear every time I come here after a big announcement its "Doom! The end times are upon us! Paizo has fallen and millions will die!" Anyway for what this thread is actually about, I wanna do a goblin Luchadore with the vigilante dedication for the Daredevil and while i don't have anything solid for slayer yet, I do like the look of the class as like a martial blue mage.
The Possible Playtest
I'm kinda in agreement with everyone else so far. I understand everyone being busy and the schedule being packed. I'm hyped for the next year and I really want to know about the impossible playtest. But... Paizo's communication has really suffered despite the best efforts of Maya and James. I try to stay positive on the forums about Paizo, but this lack of communication really really sucks, y'all. No update on the starship playtest for SF2e, no update on the impossible book, no playtest for this year... and now no errata. I know not every company does this, but I hold paizo to a higher standard. Especially since communication is one of the main reasons I became a diehard fan of your games. I dunno. Thanks for bringing the information when we asked at least, Maya. Edited to add: For the record, most of the issues would be understandable and even okay if we just had more information more often. I don't really care about not getting the pathfinder playtest this year, and if the Starship playtest was delayed so be it. The errata sucks but it sounds like this year was rough. I just feel like I would be less frustrated if I knew about this stuff being delayed.
Honestly a lot of the issues here feel like the result of a general lack of support for the summoner. Which is just kind of a larger issue in this edition for non-core classes. The passive power issue could be somewhat remedied with more eidolon gear, the errata ignoring the fact that the eidolons non-basic attacks were severely nerfed either intentionally or not, we've only gotten a couple new eidolons - though admittedly the summoner is fairing better in the new subclass department than most, I would like to see another Occult eidolon that isn't a phantom. No new feats, no new class archetypes. Draconic codex didn't update the Dragon eidolon in any way... I mean the summoner isnt special in this lack of support, kineticist is also often cited here and I imagine someone will mention another oft ignored class. I do hope the remastered summoner receives lots of love, but if the theories of it appearing in the same book as Runesmith, Necromancer, and Magus are correct, it's going to be fighting for page space and likely won't have enough space to thrive.
Finally a reasonable take. Paizo's failure to implement a Blinding Dark spell is just another reason why playing a Darkvision character and only adventuring at night is the ultimate meta.
Any of the art used on our blogs is free for you to use with proper credit and association (abiding by our Community Use Policy), and we're currently working on compiling it all (the art files) in one place for easy access and use.Hey all! Guides are great, but please don't include generative AI images in them! It puts them in a kind of weird grey area where it's not us using the AI, which is something we don't do, but having AI associated with our content and on our forums puts us in a tricky position. The things on our forums are things we promote and support, and we do not promote or support the use of generative AI in our products or products associated with them. Please continue to make the guides, but just make sure the art you're using is from an artist!We'll just go back to stealing original artwork directly from the artists then. *shrugs in jest* A lot to address here. I never claimed your works were commercial or for profit. I'm glad your guides are a product of genuine passion and never meant to disparage your name like that. I am not saying what everyone should do, I am saying what I personally find. And what I tend to find is when something is using AI for one portion of the work, there will be more used elsewhere. I personally will not share a work with my players that utilizes AI as AI has a nasty habit of hallucinating, creating connections where there are none, or simply being wrong. There are multiple concerns beyond protecting artists, though as something of an artist myself that is my primary concern. These include of course environmental and psychological effects this technology is having. As for the comment about change being inevitable and how "Amish" my mindset is, I do not believe that an industry that seems constantly on the edge of bursting is anything I would rest my hat on. Finally, for the last point about being against AI being unpopular among the average consumer, the average consumer couldn't care less about either side. The only thing they care about is the quality of the product being created, and as of right now, the more consistently high quality product is the one made with human hands. I'm sorry that you feel my concerns may lead to others leaving the community. I hope they do not.
Any of the art used on our blogs is free for you to use with proper credit and association (abiding by our Community Use Policy), and we're currently working on compiling it all (the art files) in one place for easy access and use.Hey all! Guides are great, but please don't include generative AI images in them! It puts them in a kind of weird grey area where it's not us using the AI, which is something we don't do, but having AI associated with our content and on our forums puts us in a tricky position. The things on our forums are things we promote and support, and we do not promote or support the use of generative AI in our products or products associated with them. Please continue to make the guides, but just make sure the art you're using is from an artist!We'll just go back to stealing original artwork directly from the artists then. *shrugs in jest* I know other companies also do this and it's genuinely for the best health of the community in my experience, so thank you to Paizo for looking for a solution that benefits creators. Generative AI genuinely has no place in creative content. Call me old fashioned, but I'd prefer to have no images in a guide to images from generative AI. It would make me question the integrity and passion behind the guide as a whole. I'm sure the guides have passion and integrity behind them, but the use of AI at all makes me hesitant to share with my players as if you used AI for one piece of the content, there's no reason to assume you didn't elsewhere.
Hey all! Guides are great, but please don't include generative AI images in them! It puts them in a kind of weird grey area where it's not us using the AI, which is something we don't do, but having AI associated with our content and on our forums puts us in a tricky position. The things on our forums are things we promote and support, and we do not promote or support the use of generative AI in our products or products associated with them. Please continue to make the guides, but just make sure the art you're using is from an artist! Okay well it's well within paizo's rights to take anything that doesn't reflect their values as a company off their official forums if they so choose. They are taking a hardline stance against AI, and have expressed that they do not want it on the forum. If you use AI to create, illustrate, or otherwise "improve" a work, don't expect to be able to use an official paizo platform to promote it. Its really that simple.
Are you referring to how the necromancer and runesmith might end up or what other new classes we might get? How the necromancer and runesmith might end up. Apologies for the lack of clarity.
Some discussion on another thread popped up about the Runesmith - I'd link it but I'm unfortunately rather unused to the forums and don't know how - but I was curious what you speculate the new classes might look like.
thats what i was thinking; a friend of mine was arguing it has to be the specific jaw attack associated with the perks, like listing out jaws (werecrocodile), jaws (dragon heritage), jaws (ratfolk) and theyre all 'different' jaws that only work with the 'correct' perks. I couldn't find anything saying this, it would affect using like gorilla barbarians ape arms as a monk and other such things too and seems needlessly complex/limiting. If that were the case, I'm sure they would've listed Draconic Aspect (Jaws) as a prerequisite instead of the more generic "Jaws Unarmed Attack"
I believe you'd be able to benefit from it, I don't see anything on the feat that specifically prohibits using other types of unarmed jaw attacks. Though unarmed attacks that are not jaw based wouldn't benefit.
The Bestiaries were written prior to the remaster and thus contain information and monsters and content that have since either been remastered or removed from the games lost omens setting. Things such as alignment for example have been removed. The bestiaries are still useful because the content inside only needs a bit of tweaking to make sure it functions with the current mechanics. Monster Core 1 and 2 are more or less continuations of each other, with new monsters appearing in both. The cores largely updated the bestiaries but there are also plenty of brand new beasties inside for your pleasure.
Yeah, the people who are interested in Daggerheart aren't likely going to be the same types that would be interested in PF2e. While its not the most mechanically complex system I personally have played, for groups that are moving to daggerheart they're likely either looking for a story forward system over a mechanic forward system like PF2e or are fans of Critical Role and might not be interested in the larger hobby. Nothing wrong with either of those things necessarily, but I say let them convert to their preferred system and maybe a couple of their friends will look further into pathfinder itself if DH is unsatisfying to them for one reason or another. A 5e conversion of AV is what got me to look at it and its now my groups primary system.
I really don't like having multiple, drastically different magic systems. It starts becoming too many things to understand as a GM for me. That's why I banned Psionics in every edition of D&D I ran where they added it. It was a striaghtforward case of "I do not have the spoons to understand a second magic system when the first one is already so complicated." I would like to second this. As nice as it sounds on paper, having to understand every seperate magic system to play each different caster would be a complete nightmare for the GM and it likely would result in one or two classes getting the vast majority of content - I'd probably bet on Sorcerer being drastically overrepresented in this theoretical because of their customisation and popularity. I do think that if I were to design a magic system for a PF3e, I'd expand the idea of focus spells so that casters would still have a limited amount of spells in combat, but could recharge them outside of it to ensure they never feel "worse" than martial. There are drawbacks to this I'm nearly certain, but I'm also sure such a thing would feel better for caster players.
The Despair Dragon is officially a favorite for my table
Far as I can see, the interactions should work fine. There's nothing about having to have it be specifically your natural unarmed weapon, and I don't see anything in the traits that specifically kills HotW interacting with Untamed Form. Titan Breaker only specifies that your Ikon needs to deal bludgeoning, which energized spark lets you do. I'm admittedly hazy on the rune question myself so I'll let someone else handle that.
I openly support this use of click bait. 40 is awesome and definitely makes me excited to pick up this book.
... Six? I'm really not following the math there, unless you're counting Starfinder's core classes. It's generally been two classes. Well its July and we don't even know the name of the book they'll appear in. Haha
Maybe Rhea Ripley for Amiri?
I make no promises
Grimmyr here is a beautiful man. And if anything happens to his family or iivlars then I will burn this plane to the ground!
Occult is the best choice with the exception of maybe Arcane. Divine draws power from a “divine” source. While it does have perhaps the best setup theoretically - being body and spirit, and an almost monopoly on the vitality/void/spirit damage types, it’s not really all that good for it when you look at it from a lore perspective. Necromancers gain power from their dirge, and are more similar to bards in their power source than for instance Clerics. Primal is a complete no go. The primal list draws off of nature and natural things. Undead aren’t natural. Urgathoa alone shows that being undead in and of itself is a perversion of the natural order. Arcane is probably the second best. But my issue with Arcane is that when it comes down to it, it’s a massive and versatile list that if we look at it, Arcane could fit every caster class that isn’t a divine caster and it would still largely work. Arcane to me seems like the biggest reason that the wizards core chassis is weak. They get so much power just from that spell list. Occult, from a lore perspective, is perhaps not the best. It’s the mystery spell list, and paizo went out of their way to differentiate phantoms from undead. But occult has a wide and flavorful list that works extremely well for the Necromancer. It isn’t entirely devoid of spirit damage, and it’s sort of the spooky list. Necromancers should be occult.
That is precisely the problem: deep down, you don't even see it as a religious practice.Deep down I know of no religion that calls themselves Necromancers or that claim to practice necromancy. I know some that practice what I'd call divination but that's a distinct difference. If you have a specific example you're talking about, please enlighten me. You are talking about hypothetical harm to a hypothetical group if we both aren't on the same page. For what it’s worth, Vodou is far far closer to the Animist in practice and there’s very little in the way of proper necromancy - or even improper necromancy in the practice. Most of Vodou is working Lwa, which are more spirits - or apparitions. They commune with Lwa, which can be an ancestral spirit but with the exception of the zombi, a Vodou houngan would fit as an animist medium far far better than the thrall raising necromancer.
This is really interesting. I’m gonna Playtest this and the innate heavy armor thing I think. If I have anything interesting come up from this I’ll let you know.
In theory, I like this change. It’s still MAD as hell, but would it really be the Magus if the stat spread was simple?
Whoa, I disappear for a couple months and everyone turned into a bunch of negative Nellies! What happened? Honestly I get it to some degree, Paizo going largely radio silent on things is a bit disheartening but… Can’t we cut them some slave since they had to basically restructure the entire game, continue their my early release schedule, and Playtest 6 classes in an extremely short time? Paizo is a big fish in a small pond dominated by a whale that’s taking up most of the room. Has the content from the last year been perfect? No. But acting like it’s all horrible awful trash? That feels to me like hyperbole. We don’t have to be positive all the time, but these forums hardly ever seem positive. I dunno maybe it’s just me. ~~~~~~~~~~~End of Whinging~~~~~~~~~~ Also hi Maya! You’re doing Abadar’s work!
I mean to me it’s obvious they’re going to nerf this in the future. The dedication is powerful and steals too much of the Exemplar’s class identity. So why not just tell your players you aren’t comfortable with them using the dedication until it gets fixed? That way you still can allow them to play the class, but the dedication is off the table until it’s brought into a territory you - presumably the GM - finds acceptable. No, it’s not necessarily fair to allow the class but not the dedication, but it’s pretty clear that the dedication as of right now would be too strong on a vast majority of martials with - as far as I can tell - only the Magus not getting much benefit. But sometimes communicating an issue with your players is the only way to move forward. I trust Paizo to fix this if not immediately after release then fairly soon after. At that point, I hope it’s in a good state. If not, my players will understand and just not use the archetype.
I really, really like animist's whole deal. Animist, and the covenants that are releasing in Divine Mysteries, have me more excited to play a divine character than I have been in, well ever. Ooh, I hadn’t heard about covenants yet, what are those?
I have yet to fully ban anything wholesale, with the expectation that your choices should fit the setting or story that we’re playing with. My players are particularly good about “characters first, opitimized second” so they tend not to take incredibly overpowered options just because they’re strong. If I ban anything, it’s going to be some sort of overly broken build or a rare option that doesn’t fit the story we’re doing c and in the latter case it’s almost always more of a “justify this and we’ll go from there.” rather than “you can never do this, ever.”
I’m pretty disappointed with Dragon Transformation too. Being able to turn into a dragon just because you are upset is…a bit silly. Downright peeved one might argue.
As I have said, you can have your opinion. I have no issue whatsoever with that. But as someone who has read the class properly, I have no interest in the opinion of the willfully uninformed. The class has been reviewed by multiple YouTubers like Nonat1s, the Rules Lawyer, Wisdom Check and Phoebe Bane. Perhaps you should check those out if my “gatekeeping” is ruining your experience. If you choose not to do so, that is your choice. Until then, I will continue with my “gatekeeping” and not argue with you on mechanics that you do not know or have read. Thank you.
How can a class that is only recently released to subscribers have a "widely considered" opinion about it whatsoever? It's not like the majority of Pathfinder players are subscribers, so that's not a realistic claim. The book hasn't even hit the streets yet, and we are somehow calling the class something that may not even be called that by the public, even if simply because nobody else has had their chance to draw their own conclusion. And no, playtesting and its consequential results don't count because the class may not be the same as that product. This is like a movie trailer with statements like "Critics are raving" and other similar false advertisements, and taking them for face value instead of waiting for the movie to actually be seen in theatres for the public to criticize it, whom will probably have a stark contrast viewpoint from it. And really, if we were to take the Exemplar dedication as a "teaser" for the main class, the expectation that the class will also be broken isn't an outlandish conclusion to draw. So you have yet to see the Exemplar yet? You are basing your opinion on it entirely off the dedication? Because what I very obviously meant by saying “widely considered” is that nearly everyone who DOES have their copy, and HAS seen the class, and are weighing in on their takes believe the class to not only be fine, but to be perfectly balanced. Until you have read the class proper, your opinion on its balance is speculative at best and doomsaying at worst and is of no interest to me in turn. I have no interest in arguing the point further. Ultimately this is your opinion on the matter, and you are obviously far more passionate in this than I am.
Really? So features that outright nullify spellcasters and other save-based effects are A-Okay? And...Any particular reason for that?Well, we have the precedent from PF1, where Mythic broke an already broken game in many other ways. We have the speculation and posts from others on the forums here in regards to currently published Mythic options that either obsolete or hamper expected gameplay elements. And we also have personal stigmatisms for what the system is meant to accomplish being in direct contrast of what the stated design goals of the new edition was, which was to keep things in balance, not throw them out of whack. Put it all together, and you have a reasonable concern behind the system in question. The Exemplar Dedication is busted, as Angwa acknowledged. In fact, they acknowledged all of your points except one as a negative. The Exemplar class itself is widely considered balanced to other martials, so I would love to hear exactly how out of balance it is with something like a Fighter or Barbarian in your opinion. As for the unaddressed point, +8 is supposed to be swingy at low levels. Thats the entire point of giving it to you at low levels. You can not like it, but to some degree mythic is meant to break the conventional math. There are issues that may pop up, but pretending like this is somehow unintentional or against the point of the game is missing the point of mythic. Also Exemplar isn’t part of mythic. It is a base class that has mythic themes. You can use an Exemplar in basic play the same as a fighter, it just won’t fit as easily. Hence the rare tag.
Basically the biggest issue is that there’s no specific mention of where Elemental Blasts or Impulses work with the archetypes presented. As a Kineticist doesn’t strike or cast spells, there’s no way for them to really take advantage of feats that require one of those with their main weapons. It’s less “can’t play mythic” and more “have no consideration in the text for their specific thing”
I would like to know where you read this from. I need something to get my hopes up.I'm positive it needs errata.They’ve already stated it will have errata in the fall. The alternate mythic rules document contains some minor errata and at the top of that page it says that errata for WoI will be released for Fall 2024 Errata cycle.
The Kineticist as RAW is, as far as I can parse, not compatible with mythic play. I’ve seen some good homebrew for it, but until either Mythic or Kinet get an errata to fix the EB issue, there’s nothing for the Kineticist to utilize with their impulses or EB.
Oh I know people in general like the book, obviously they wouldn’t be so passionate about it if they didn’t, but it does feel like the negative talking points have strongly outweighed the positive. It seems like the negativity is effecting those that don’t currently have some way to access the book into dreading its release whether because the mythic stuff is disappointing or because the exemplar dedication is overturned, or any number of talking points that come out. I do think that there’s a lot the book could do better, but I want to balance the discussion a bit. That way people can see what’s great about this book - like the lore, the class stuff, the combat fishing pole - and balance that against the negativity. Again, I’m not looking to disarm valid criticism, but valid criticism without equally valid praise makes the whole product look worthless for those from the outside looking in, if that makes sense?
Hey guys! So I noticed that on here and on the subreddit there’s a rather massive amount of negativity surrounding this book, and it seems like it’s causing a sort of negative echo chamber feedback loop so I want to try to break that up a little! So what’s some positives for War of Immortals? What do you like? What is your favorite thing about it? I’ll start! I love the Animist! Genuinely one of the coolest designs I’ve seen for anything in a tabletop. In fact I think both classes are absolutely masterworks of game design. And I know this is probably controversial, but I actually really like the Vindicator! It’s a bit clunky mechanically but I’ve been playing one with my roommate who has his pdf copy and it’s absolutely so much fun to roleplay and I’m doing really good damage! I know this book isn’t perfect, but I also just want to know what people like after the last week or so of hearing every negative opinion a person could have on the book from every community. Let’s hype up the community for what is - for the most part - a pretty great release as we wait for the full public launch!
Wait. Enthrall isn't an emanation. It has 120 feet range and targets "all creatures in range" instead of "any number of creatures." Does that mean the caster can end up fascinated with their own spell? I am almost entirely certain that is not RAI, but I guess if that’s how you want to run it? |
