Dr. Aspects's page

TheTownsend wrote:

Awakened Ooze, Gargoyle, and the very strong implication that those are not the only ones! I can't imagine what they're holding back if those two are the gimmes!

Also what seems like our first looks at the Daredevil and Slayer Iconics, looked like a rogueish Osirian human and a fur-clad cambion respectively. I was a little surprised that they both seem to be male presenting (I think? Could be wrong about either, really). Paizo's been keeping a fairly even gender balance in Iconics, Usharak and Pallemi knocked the balance toward male so I was sort of expecting the next set to be two women. We won't know more for most of a year!

I don't know what a Slayer is, but isn't Daredevil an archetype that we already have? Or am I thinking of Vigilante?

Or is this very specifically about the marvel superhero who is blind?

Slayer is a monster hunter who collects trophies from their kills and uses them to enhance their arsenal.

Daredevil is a bouncy martial that does wicked cool stuff with the terrain to use their class abilities.

The Risks and Rewards playtest is what you'd be looking for.

So it seems the other thread has been entirely removed, which I feel is a shame on multiple levels. Not least of which because it contained some very intriguing theorizing on how ToD might take Gargoyles - a commonly antagonistic ancestry of beasts - and expand them into into a full playable ancestry.

This second thread is to hopefully recreate some of what was lost. Personally, I hope to see some explanation of their ecology and society that most Adventurers never get to see, without stripping away the more interesting bits like their love of collecting odd bits and bobs. A Gargoyle Thaumaturge digging around in their collection of esoterica could be extremely fun.

And as I and some others pointed out, the precedent is deep and wide ranging. Orcs, goblins, kobolds, kholo... all antagonistic, all given deeper lore that added some level of shine to their existing lore as antagonists, and while i understand some people may prefer they keep some monsters unambiguous for gameplay reasons, I think I prefer adding to the lore in these ways that offer deeper characteristization for GMs that prefer that, while also maintaining that some members of this ancestry really are just bad people for GMs that prefer that.

Anyway, as I said, I just wanted to restart this conversation as the other one was unceremoniously dumped and we lost a lot of great conversation.

Infinite thralls for tripping hazards in front of you is an under appreciated use of

Sadly Xenocrat tripped on a thrall on their way to finish their thought.

We may never know what infinite thralls is an under appreciated use of.

Genuinely cannot wait for the Numeria AP. Such a neat piece of the setting I never see get enough attention

I patently cannot afford a new physical book, nor do I personally have the space for it so my group shares an account that has a subscription we all 3 pitch in for whenever a new book comes out. If there was a PDF option, even at 30 bucks a pop, I think all three of us could justify completely seperate subscriptions.

Ah, finally.

Not quite the perfect solution but this seems to me to be significantly more fair than what we had been hearing before.

Thank you for your hard work, Paizo and AoN teams. All of you. Maya is the most visible and deserves all the praise xe gets but I know this is a team effort and I want to extend my gratitude further. You listened to us, even as we berated you and each other and came out of this better for it.

I JUST WANTED TO COME HERE AND SAY OFFICIALLY THAT JIMOTHY WILL BE SANCTIONED FOR ORGANIZED PLAY NEXT MONTH RAAAAAAH!!!

I did the thing, and I feel so proud. Please picture me evil laughing.

Just want to say that this is the funniest possible outcome and I approve of it.

Frankly i just hope this is done and dusted soon. It's rather frustrating to see people spinning in circles trying to assign complete malice to one side or another – yes, I am aware that I fell into this trap myself early on – and it feels like the community is going to tear itself apart.

Now we have people trying to litigate which youtuber is correct based on how much or how little they know, or whether or not they're being malicious to one side or another.

This all could've been avoided with better communication on, yeah I'll say it, both sides. I still think a lot lies with Paizo, but I do think that a simple follow-up email a week later from AoN would've done wonders. Maybe some extra time after they sent that they were going to announce it so they could get a chance to review it given Gen Con was so close.

Anyway, this all sucks and I hope it can get resolved so people can move on and stop sniping at each other.

I need some clarification: Does the 6 months to change the site start on the 24th or is the 24th the deadline for them to remove the art?

My understanding is that the 24th is the official end of the agreement and they have 6 months from then to remove it.

So, I’m curious. Everybody seems to agree that Demiplane sucks.

Yet it makes enough money to have bought roll 20 and hire sufficient staff to almost always be the first with updates.

Who does it make its money from, and why do these people spend their money on it?

My assumption? New players moving away from 5e and specifically D&D Beyond. If they liked the DDB interface, but fell out of love with 5e, that's where they'd go.

Edited to Add: Also demiplane hosts many a nexus, not just PF2e. It hosts Vampire the Masquerade, Avatar Legends, D&D 5e, just to name a few.

Hopping in to plus one this. Maya has not adequately proven xe isn't a Skittermander ruse.

Sincerely, as heated as I feel towards certain aspects

I see that call out! How could you be heated towards me?! Smh /joking

More seriously I'm also gonna hop in on this and agree. People on either extreme of this conversation are getting pretty nasty with each other and there's already enough to go around without shoving it into each others faces.

To appropriate and rewrite a line from a Canadian children's cartoon: "I don't care how fast it updates, I'm not using the Nexus."

pauljathome wrote:

Almost all of us trust you Maya. You have earned that trust many times over

This means a lot to me! I've been working here at Paizo for over a year now, working diligently to champion our community, my fellow members of the team, and build trust with you all! It's not something I take lightly or would ever break! I take my role very seriously!

I would like to reiterate, Maya, that no matter my feelings at the moment on Paizo as a whole, I still appreciate the work you do and know you're an advocate for the entire community just doing your best for all parties. Thank you for the service you're doing.

I also posted something to the effect of Paizo's decision regarding AON feeling "ungodly stupid" and stand by that statement. This was an unnecessary self-own.

But the community reaction has been very overblown the last 24 hours, with people rending their clothes and proclaiming boycotts, leaving the hobby forever, changing systems, etc. While waiting one day for more information would have shed some light on the whole issue, for example that AON had six months to remove the artwork and chose not to take that option to negotiate and also wasn't able to send a "kind reminder!" e-mail to Jim (which is the absolute standard even in many professional business relationships, I can assure you).

I personally didn't even think Jims statement was badly worded, the reaction to it is once again some people taking this too personally.

I kinda have become disenchanted with "fan uproar" in the last years, because it always immediately escalates to 200% intensity, then more context comes in and still some people refuse to back down, even in light of extenuating circumstances.

I admit some fault in that matter, and would retract probably 80% of what I said. I disagree that Jim's message wasn't poorly worded, as if it wasn't poorly worded, no one would have assumed malice behind his final statement. At the very least it could've done without mentioning AoN's haste to get a statement out, especially seeing that Jim left them on read for weeks.

Still, I went too far in withdrawing support so quickly and should've waited. My group will be reinstating our subscriptions as soon as I can get ahold of them, and we will await more clarity to make final decisions.

Alright after sleeping on it, reading the forums and watching the second AoN video, I've had something of an epiphany.

I know nothing about what is actually happening at this point. I have turned this situation over and over in my head and while the ball has gotten smoother, no clarity has come to me.

So until I do understand what's happening, I'm pulling back on my initial reaction. I still feel Jim was - perhaps unintentionally - hostile with the last part of his message and I want to make it clear that I do not feel that is warranted and would feel better with an apology, but maybe withdrawing support from Paizo full stop isn't the play. Maybe making it clear that I will if things continue on this trajectory is enough. I don't know.

This whole situation sucks, and I'm throwing some money AoNs way after I finish this message. Hope we can get this resolved in a mutually beneficial way without more drama.

Wise stuff I wanted to keep in but was too long

Thank you for correcting us, Owen. I did say what I wanted to return but I can see how my parting shot may have muddled it.

So to be clear to the good people of Paizo. All we want is either a new, more respectful statement that gives AoN the respect they deserve, along with an apology to them by Jim, or a reversal on the decision and me and my group will come back.

We don't want you to go under, we also feel this situation is insanely mishandled.

Dr. Aspects wrote:

Those royalties were an "if you make a profit", not a "Pay us this much this frequently". AoN has been operating at cost or at a loss so they never paid royalties. Jim says this is about bad actors stealing art (allegedly).

But AoN can continue to use the ORC licensed stuff just not early. Correct?

They cannot use most monster art, and will likely be several months behind street date but yes

So let me see if I am understanding this correctly. Paizo and AoN had a licensing agreement, AoN could publish stuff, even early, and use artwork which is not covered under the OGL/ORC/Whatever we're calling it this week if AoN paid a royalty.

AoN did not pay those royalties for over 8 years so Paizo says "guess what, you can't use that non ORC stuff and don't get early access for free anymore because...licensing agreement."

Is there something I'm missing because that seems 100% perfectly reasonable to me.

Those royalties were an "if you make a profit", not a "Pay us this much this frequently". AoN has been operating at cost or at a loss so they never paid royalties. Jim says this is about bad actors stealing art (allegedly).

reevos wrote:

Paizo is not a big company by any stretch of the imagination. They are somewhere between 50-100 employees. We also have no idea what was being asked to be given up for that middle ground. With no response for 2 weeks I would not call that 'ongoing'.

Yeah and based on what Avi said on bluesky there is one person answering emails right now. Do you know how many emails a company like Paizo gets daily? If you are beholden to a company who's IP you are using it is basic common sense to send a follow up but from what I can tell they sent a single email and called it a day. Additionally they could have explained all this in their community announcement, but they chose not to. You don't get the benefit of the doubt just because you are a group of volunteers. You have a responsibility to the community and the company you are working with to get all your ducks in a row before going nuclear.

Maya handles the community email, if AoN was trying to specifically get ahold of Jim, they would've used his direct business email most likely.

A well put together argument that is too long for me to quote

Well put, Teridax. I still support individuals in Paizo, but Paizo is not our friend, and we owe the company nothing beyond the money we choose to give it. If the company no longer supports the community, then I'm not supporting the company as a member of said community.

Everyone else can do as they wish. I won't judge you for continuing to buy from Paizo, and I ask you don't judge me for calling this a Rubicon moment.

I hope Paizo stops wading into the riverbank, but I'm not following unless they come back to me.

Depending on the fear, if I end up being wrong and this isnt about keeping the community access and it is as some people are theorizing, a way for AoN to "push community sentiment to get better deals" then no.

If I end up being wrong and things are much worse for AoN than we're being led to believe, I will support them to the full extent of my capability.

What better deal could they possibly make? You sound conspiratorial about a free volunteer-run community resource. They've been running the current license for over 8 years and were only put in this position because Paizo decided to shoot themselves in the foot.

Sorry I put more trust in the community project with no profit incentives than I do the company forced onto the back foot by community outrage.

Dr. Aspects wrote:

VerBeeker wrote:

Not sure exactly how to feel, but at the end of the day I’m keeping the subs. I don’t want to see these games die, though some people seem markedly keen for it for some reason out there.

I don't want these games to die, but frankly I have enough content to keep games going ad infinitum.

Paizo are the ones who chose this course of action, and they are being openly hostile to members of their own community working on a passion project that only benefits Paizo.

I have other companies I can support. I have other games I can play. I gave paizo my limited time and cash and if this is the game they're playing, instead of the one I signed up for? Then they'll either do fine without me, or they'll apologize and back off.

And what if the point about AoN is true? Obviously I do not see AoN being malicious about this, but is the idea of a volunteer team jumping the gun to make an announcement out of anxiety towards their community. without mentioning possible ways of this being worked on towards a solution BTS, THAT impossible?

A solely volunteer team working at a loss is in no way shape or form obligated to keep quiet when they see no path forward in the allotted time. They get more grace because they have no motive but fear.

Not sure exactly how to feel, but at the end of the day I’m keeping the subs. I don’t want to see these games die, though some people seem markedly keen for it for some reason out there.

I don't want these games to die, but frankly I have enough content to keep games going ad infinitum.

Paizo are the ones who chose this course of action, and they are being openly hostile to members of their own community working on a passion project that only benefits Paizo.

I have other companies I can support. I have other games I can play. I gave paizo my limited time and cash and if this is the game they're playing, instead of the one I signed up for? Then they'll either do fine without me, or they'll apologize and back off.

Christmas on a cracker, Jim, couldn't just end the blog post. No we had to put in a crack at the volunteers who makes this game worth playing.

I'm telling my group to not support future releases until this resolves and/or Paizo issues an apology.

The amount of books I've bought, the amount of free advertisement and defense I've offered, I'm not doing it anymore. I can't morally justify it.

Hope you get paid big for this, because from now on you won't get a red cent from me.

Dr. Aspects wrote:

Claxon wrote:

I don't know what Bluesky is, but that certainly isn't the kind of response I'd want to see.

Was the post made from an official Paizo account, or as the personal account of a Paizo employee saying this "on behalf of the company"?

I ask only because there is a difference between an employee being concerned for a coworker, and an official statement/stance from the company.

It was the latter, though it wasn't on behalf of the company.

That being said, seeing as we have one consistent line to Paizo and no options for alternatives were offered, it was less than effective at dealing with the firestorm Maya no doubt walked into this morning.

Claxon mentioned the options twice in different order. So 'the latter' became ambiguous. What was the case?

Also, is Bluesky unavailable without an account? If it isn't maybe there's a link?

Apologies, it was a paizo employee on their personal account. It seems they've deleted it as of this morning, but there are screenshots in various places. I'll see if I can find a way to link one.

Edit: It appears every instance of the screenshot has been wiped from reddit, leaving only discord messages as a screenshot source. Unfortunately you'd have to be logged in to view those.

Here's the text from the screenshot I do have access to:
"Hey folks, I realize you are all upset about the AoN news but PLEASE do not with the mass-email campaign. Maya is one person receiving hundreds of furious emails. You have made yourselves heard plenty. It is really not fair to direct this anger at one person who had no part in this decision."

I don't know what Bluesky is, but that certainly isn't the kind of response I'd want to see.

Was the post made from an official Paizo account, or as the personal account of a Paizo employee saying this "on behalf of the company"?

I ask only because there is a difference between an employee being concerned for a coworker, and an official statement/stance from the company.

It was the latter, though it wasn't on behalf of the company.

That being said, seeing as we have one consistent line to Paizo and no options for alternatives were offered, it was less than effective at dealing with the firestorm Maya no doubt walked into this morning.

Buried in Frost wrote:

delwin23 wrote:

I sincerely hope that it doesn't turn out to be in any way related to partnerships with other third parties (Demiplane, Roll20, etc.), as that will absolutely kill any desire I currently have to spend any more money with Paizo as dead as my interest in what WOTC has to offer us.

^^^^^^

This. I cannot emphasize this enough.

Was just saying this to my partner. I hope that the license doesn't pass to another organization that believes they can monetize it. This is the type of community that will actively avoid a tool that undercut another contributing member of the community.

Especially a long standing, well crafted, free volunteer led project...

Also, way to undercut Impossible Magic hype. Regardless of the "financial" reasons for this change, it was deeply, deeply stupid to announce on the release of a hugely anticipated book. The sunreddit is stacked with posts about AoN and all the impossible magic is being buried.

Good job Jim!

As loathe as I am to defend paizo's decision making at the moment, in the interest of fairness, AoN were the ones to announce this, not Paizo...

But Paizo definitely should've coordinated with the AoN team to ensure this level of fallout at least had a solid reason to blame.

Also thirding Primus

I said this on the discord, and I'll say it here.

I know this isn't fair to you or your fault, Maya, and I'm so sorry this boneheaded decision was made.

For whatever I say on the forums or emails about this, though I'm trying to be respectful, just know that none of it is aimed at you directly. I know you're just the messenger.

HolyFlamingo! wrote:

Demiplane (YUCK!)

I would like to take this opportunity to mention that Demiplane is hot garbage.

If it ran smoothly on my phone and my group didn't already buy the books... twice after my house fire... I'd still not use the Nexus because I didn't want PF2e Beyond.

I try to be a positive Peter for Paizo but... damn, this one blows. Frankly I don't see where this came from. I'm hoping you guys will have a statement on this because AoN and Pathbuilder were what got me and my group here in the first place.

This decision sucks hot donkey...

QuidEst wrote:

BotBrain wrote:

Since Magus got two new subclass, I'm going to bet we get two new eidlodons. (Aberration please paizo i will give you lots of coins)

Not just aberration, but ooze as well! (Ooze is arcane, since dragon is now pick-a-list as you'd expect.)

There go my coins!

Finally, goo and Cthulhu eidolons

Maya Coleman wrote:

I'll say this again, but yes, these lists are at the end of the day subjective! It's just a bit of fun! Keep things light and civil when it coms to subjective preferences!

And yet, I bet no one would put up with my Smash or Pass iconics tier list!

(Even though we all know that Grimmyr would be an S Tier smash daddy)

...Okay but actually I'd like to see that, so

My opinion?

S-tier: Sorcerer
A-tier: Animist, Alchemist
B-tier: Barbarian, Bard
C-tier: Commander, Cleric
D-tier: Druid
F-tier: Fighter

I may have misunderstood the task…

I feel terrible for the Wizard

Zoken44 wrote:

Again I point to carnivores and omnivores. They inherently NEED to destroy other living things, powered by this vitality energy, to survive. Hell, if we're talking about all living things powered by living energy, any animal requires the destruction of a vitality powered living being to survive.

Except bees. Honey doesn't require the death or destruction of any living thing.

Well there are meat eating bees that apparently make honey from meat, but I digress.

No but leshies are crazy fun because I can play Sir Chip Spudley, Knight of Lastwall and champion of Iomedae as a real full fledged character and I just think that's neat

Fear not, Maya, for I, Dr. Thaddeus Aspects, am always a paragon of civility.

...I don't see why you couldn't play an evil goblin? You were able play evil characters of otherwise neutral or good ancestries prior, just as an outlier. Now its just not biological determinism deciding whether or not an entire ancestry is evil.

Play whatever kind of goblin you want if the table is down for it. I think it's more realistic that the kinds of creatures your adventurer is most likely to encounter are extreme outliers on either side with the vast majority being some flavor of neutral.

Okay so I think the relevant rules have been discussed fairly at this point, and not to make a bad problem worse, but there are multiple messages to moderators on this thread that are either passive aggressive or plainly hostile in wording. Maybe we just agree to disagree at this point, go our seperate ways, and keep our thoughts about each other in our head, eh?

Hey OP, are you like... good? Not to put to fine a point on it but you sound... off. Maybe take a breather and come back when you're feeling better?

It's a bit off-topic but do you think of how thralls would be very useful for small daredevils as props!?

Props! Everywhere!

Now we're thinking with portals thralls!

Dr. Aspects wrote:

So I like the concept of the Slayer. I think it has nice flavor, obviously the tools could use some reworking to bring them all roughly in line with each other, mark quarry probably shouldn't be 10 minutes, etc. etc.

Possibly an unpopular opinion I'm about to share, but... I think Paizo should just get wild with this.

Trophies should be more like the chymists eye. Where you get to steal a specific ability or trait from a monster depending on which tool you picked. Maybe that could justify the 10 minute timer on it. Maybe make it a feat tree where you can unlock more types of trophies as you go on.

I think the trophy system is inspiring and I think it needs some cooking. Let me use the head of a Medusa to turn people to stone, let me take the eye of a cyclops to get their Flash of Insight, stuff like that.

C'mon Paizo. Make this weird.

Although I agree with the proposal, I still think the 10-minute Quarry restriction needs to be removed, and it needs to work with any humanoid creature. However, creature parts could be restricted to creatures that don't use or carry items, making only this type of creature valid for trophies, but the combat abilities universally functional.

To be clear, I do agree with you! I don't think quarry should be 10 minutes and I do think that monster lore should be allowed with humanoids - you can already Mark Quarry on any creature as far as I can tell regardless of type.

So I like the concept of the Slayer. I think it has nice flavor, obviously the tools could use some reworking to bring them all roughly in line with each other, mark quarry probably shouldn't be 10 minutes, etc. etc.

Possibly an unpopular opinion I'm about to share, but... I think Paizo should just get wild with this.

Trophies should be more like the chymists eye. Where you get to steal a specific ability or trait from a monster depending on which tool you picked. Maybe that could justify the 10 minute timer on it. Maybe make it a feat tree where you can unlock more types of trophies as you go on.

I think the trophy system is inspiring and I think it needs some cooking. Let me use the head of a Medusa to turn people to stone, let me take the eye of a cyclops to get their Flash of Insight, stuff like that.

C'mon Paizo. Make this weird.

That makes sense, but all of it's abilities are just so... situational. it is a terrible weapon to use until level 7, at which point it becomes just a bad one.

Agreed. I like the flavor, but the mechanics need a massive buff. Shooting daggers out of a crossbow is objectively cool, but they should get the benefits of the crossbows property runes bare minimum.

While I don't agree that Slayer lacks identity, I do agree that trophies should do significantly more. If for no other reason than I think more powerful and varied effects on Trophies would just be more fun.

I personally also think tools could be heavily expanded and improved, but if no one gets to that thread before me, I'll make it.

I think you should at least have a trophy feat tree with some basic monster abilities baked in. Like a trophy with petrifying gaze from slaying a Medusa or Basilisk.

This could be overpowered but I'm just spitballing based on what I feel the class fantasy should offer.

Definitely intended to include giants, given they're listed as viable trophy options. Good catch, John.

Does anyone here even like this game at this point? I swear every time I come here after a big announcement its "Doom! The end times are upon us! Paizo has fallen and millions will die!"

Anyway for what this thread is actually about, I wanna do a goblin Luchadore with the vigilante dedication for the Daredevil and while i don't have anything solid for slayer yet, I do like the look of the class as like a martial blue mage.

Oooh, that's great to hear! I was expecting to have months to wait before the next playtest. Very excited to hear it won't be much longer.

Speculation: Last December was the Impossible Playtest, so I'm betting it's new Pathfinder classes to playtest.

The Possible Playtest