Dastardly Cupid's page

With your racial point buy and this Simple Bard class that actually would give the fluff of the Lillend race perfectly.

And taking 2 levels negative over 7 is preferable.

And we may pay off the CR increases over time.

Although I will say PF did boost the power of most races up a bit by allowing things like the Aasimar which were LA 1 or so before as regular classes.

I have a friend who argues Goliath should be included in that.

That is true, they only really wanted you to play a human at least in early editions of the game where if you played other races you couldn't even level to 20. Which is also why all races are basically reskinned humans. Which after so many years gets boring.

Ok.. so whats the difference in playing it? You all say play it as a bard but if its already put as a bard why?
Also the Azata, Lillend has a +10 Con instead of the +4 the Savage Species guide goes off.

the Savage Species Lillend which is the source of this monster class has different rules, apparently much weaker.

Like I said forget it, it doesn't matter.

Also using the Race builder is a joke, the point values in comparison with actual race attributes hardly equals up half the time.
For example if I want an At-Will power of a 3rd level spell its 6 RP. If I want Fast Healing 1 its 6 RP... thats totally fair right?

The book says it gains Bard Music of half its level. I am not sure how that makes it a Bard of the Same Level +1

Like I said forget it it doesn't matter

Though I can only imagine the pants changing you must have if someone mentions Azlanti humans and their 27-29 RP point lay out with the totally terrifying +2 to all stats and a bonus feat.

Well never mind then if this is such an insane option I will play a human with Pathetic six times over.

You are aware this is a snake-like being with angel wings. It looks nothing like Barney and thank you for the insults. Have a nice day.

Are the + to stats that scary really? What if they where put on base 10.
That would be a 20, 16, 14, 14, 16, 18 which is doable with a good series of rolls and a human bonus.

You're a 6th level bard with BAB +7 (plus a good fort save as well) you have natural flight at 70' move, your ability scores are amazing (the equivalent of 69 point buy for a human), +5 natural armor and a natural attack with grab and constrict, all your weapons penetrate chaotic & good DR, reach 10' - and yes, you have seven mostly minor spell-like abilities. FYI, Hallucinatory Terrain.

If I were GM'ing it I would insist on modifying the monster or its effective level.

Well I could just play out the Monster class, but the +5 LA to make it a 13 level race seems a little steep all things considered.

And TY somehow I missed that when I was browsing the spells.

Also those are guidelines not rules, and are also different to what you were suggesting.

Its a bad idea

How did it sound from me? I was saying using the CR 7 as its class levels which worked out with its 7 RHD which matched its CR.

I do agree its powerful, but by higher levels its hardly game breaking. Sure if I went pure caster its good, if I went Martial its decent because I wouldn't get the high power that the other classes will get.

At level 20 a human fighter has 7 more levels of class features and feats compared to a Lillend fighter 20. Losing out on the last Armor and Weapon Training, 4 bonus feats, Armor Mastery and Weapon Mastery.
As well as 7 levels of inferior HD a d8 to a d10.

Question. If I reduced the Monster Class to a LA +3 and made its monster class run finish at 10th would it be fair?

3.5's LA/Racial HD was too harsh on monster PC's. PF's CR = level, then add extra levels guideline is too easy.

I think your lillend as listed would fall into the category 'Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers' if using the guideline provided.

Is it really their powers or their ability score bonuses?

The ability to charm person, speak with animal and speak with plant are not all that powerful for a 1/day limit. As two of those are useless except for RP and charm person you can pick up more often a day as a straight bard.

No, I wouldn't allow it. The bonuses are too strong, even if you have to spend 7 levels of not having a class.

If you want something similar, play an Aasimar bard. The can racially get wings and the variant of Aasimar have a variety of ability bonuses. You could refluff it as having snake scales and wings.

Except that it is not a snake-angel styled look. Its a human who's mommy or daddy was an outsider and they ended up with the shaft of being human with oddities and having scales and wings does not a Lillend make.

The amount of points it would take to properly map out its effects would definitely put it into a CR 3 or 4 range and at that point the 7 would just not be that much of a deal breaker.

And to be fair of course its more powerful its a proper outsider not some little humanoid from the material plane its going to be a higher tier of character. But 7 class levels is a LARGE chunk of a character development.

And in Savage its a 13 level class like I said, but 3.5 had a nasty habit of bloating LA.

Monsters As PC
So I think there are official rules for playing monster races.
Specifically
For monsters with racial Hit Dice, the best way to allow monster PCs is to pick a CR and allow all of the players to make characters using monsters of that CR. Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes. Do not advance such monsters by adding Hit Dice. Monster PCs should only advance through classes.

If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.

The reason I brought up level 7 is because it gets skills, RHD saves and proficiency just no armors so it could be played with a level 7.

Ok so I was going through Savage Species from 3.5 and I found the Lillend race and I really like the fluff and look of it. The classic naga look with wings.
But its quite powerful as its a total of a 13 level monster class.
But thats using 3.5 LA rules as well.
And PF uses CR which is 7, and the race has 7 RHD so that works. But this also means in 7 levels it gets the following:
Outsider (Chaotic, Good)
7d8 RHD
Full BAB; All good Saves
8+Int
Str: +10
Dex: +6
Con: +4
Int: +4
Wis: +6
Cha: +8
Tail Slap 2d6 +1/2 Str
Improved Grab (If Tailslap hits a foe its size or smaller)
Constrict
+5 Natural Armor
Fire Resistance 10
Large Size
Fly 70 ft (Average)
20 ft Landspeed
Bard Abilities: Starting at 2nd level, a lillend casts spells
and has the bardic music ability of a bard of half its class level.
Lillend World Powers (Sp): Beginning at 3rd level, a lillend
can use the following spell-like abilities once per day:
darkness, hallucinatory terrain, knock, and light. At 9th level
and higher it can use them three times per day. The lillend’s
caster level is its effective bard level + 4.
Lillend Talk Powers (Sp): Beginning at 5th level, a lillend
can use the following spell-like abilities once per day:
charm person, speak with animals, and speak with plants. Its
caster level is its effective bard level + 4.

I know this is insanely good but it does take 7 levels to reach this level and I would only be able to take this at 7th level and take only a class level at 8th level.