Dantrag's page

Thanks, that clears things up a lot.

It would greatly reduce the confusion in such situations if paizo used similar wording for similar abilities though.

I do understand that it's a 'Ask a GM' matter and different GMs may rule differently. I do believe that it's better to do as much research as possible beforehand so GM is informed when making a decision: there is a difference between "there is this gray area and these are interpretations i've already found, what is your ruling" versus "take this obscure feat you see once a year and this specific revelation you see once a year, how do they work together".

I do agree that IEH does not work per FAQ if we're talking about a generic Oracle. The specific wording of Arcane Archivist, hovewer, makes it seem as if first sentence provides you with constant ability to cast arcane spells without letting you know them, while second sentence provides you with 1/day ability to know spell. That is in contrast to similar ability of Skald (Spell Kenning), that with its wording restricts both knowing spell and having it on spell list to 1/day.

The gist is that IEH on its own only adds spell to spells known, thus per FAQ not allowing you to cast it. Class ability Arcane Archivist, hovewer, provides you with ability to cast this spell (separately of the spellbook mechanism), thus allowing you to benefit from IEH. Splitting revelation like that is not hair-pulling, because some revelations (Lore - Final Revelation, Lunar-Eye of the Moon, Lunar - Mantle of Moonlight etc) have multiple separate effects in them, and it's not obvious to understand when the split is intended and when it is not.

So, your argument seems to be that splitting the AA mechanism into two parts (unlimited casting as if on spell list + knowing 1/day) was a bad call by the writer, and it should function similarly to Spell Kenning (both knowing and having spell on spell list is limited to spellbook mechanism), is that correct?

@James Risner
Thanks for your reply!
Just to clarify, we seem to agree, that:

Firstly, if an Oracle gets single wizard spell as permanently known due to Improved Eldritch Heritage feat, he then can cast it as if it was on his spell list due to wording of Arcane Archivist. Additionally, he can once per day cast any spell he does not know if he has it in the spellbook, expending higher level spell slot and erasing the spell from the spellbook.

Secondly, Oracle does not gain the ability to use spell-trigger or spell-completion items without UMD check, as using said items is not casting and thus wording of AA is not applicable.

I will post here if i find any evidence against aforementioned statements.

Several more counterexamples to the statement 'first sentence is a descriptive one':
Lore mystery, Brain Drain description starts with 'You can take a standard action to violently probe the mind of a single intelligent enemy within 100 feet.', next sentences are describing effect and specifying save DC.

Lore mystery, Think On It (Ex): Once per day, the oracle of lore can reattempt any previously failed Knowledge check.

Lore mystery, Whirlwind Lesson (Ex): You can quickly browse through a magical tome or manual, gaining its benefits with only a single 8-hour study session (rather than the usual 48 hours over a period of 6 days).

Lore mystery, Final Revelation: You gain the ability to take 20 on all Knowledge skill checks.

All of the above revelations have multiple sentences in the description and become either unreadable (Think On It) or just weaker (Final Revelation) if you remove the first sentence.

Including Lore mystery revelation 'Arcane Archivist' that mentions spell lists, there are five out of total eleven Lore oracle revelations that specifically use game terms in the first sentence (spell list, standard action, reattempt knowledge check, 8-hour study session, take 20 on knowledge checks). Having 6/11 revelations start with a descriptive text is hardly 'most' (albeit it is technically correct).

In addition, 'spell list' is not an in-universe term as far as I know. Using it in a flavour description is akin to saying in-character that 'Ulrich Orcsbane hated greenskins so much, he could perform grapple checks against them as an immediate action'.

Additional discussions i've had seem to conclude that 'casting as if you had something on spell list' do not allow you to use spell-trigger or spell-completion items (otherwise Arcane Savant PrC would not have general 'treat as if' wording over more specific 'cast as if' of Arcane Archivist). In addition, activating a spell-trigger or spell-completion item indeed is not casting the contained spell: thus being able to 'cast spells as if they were on spell list' does not help using wands or scrolls.

It still seems that 'cast arcane spells as if they were on your spell list' clause negates FAQ wording that specifically mentions casters being able to cast spells from their class' spell list.

@James Risner
That's absolutely fair and I agree to everything you've said.
I should admit that ruleslawyering is a somewhat fun pastime for me and my group of players, most of whom are gms as well, and this discussion for me is mostly important because i want to know how the rules play out.

Bastardisation of RAW is a problem, yes, but RAW (at least for me) includes all FAQs, erratas and 'additional resources' page; forum discussions carry are great weight, but they are below RAW unless in special cases when they are 100times FAQCandidated, by People Of Authority and/or represent consensus in discussion thread (like clarifications and threads on Improved Familiar).

@Castilliano
No, i do not expect to have this argument at every table i play, because it's too much trouble for benefits provided.
However, there is obvious uncertainty in rules regarding the single class i play and plan on playing at least in the following year, and at the very least i want to know how to react when i see somebody using this loophole. Furthermore i like to completely understand how my class features work before i sign in to the game, rather than shutting my eyes at any rule discrepancy i see and then wasting table time when GM has to make a call. And, finally, if there's something that by rules provides me benefits, then yes, i would very much like to use it. If there are no benefits or if there are drawbacks - well at least i know how my class works, nothing lost here.

Yes, there are times when RAW contradicts RAI: for example, monastic legacy champion of Irori shenanigans for 1.5BAB prestige class (i am not aware if this was faqed though, never played one).
Furthermore, there are FAQs that are mistakingly applied all the time: for example, a lot of players argue against stacking CHA to AC multiple times and cite FAQ, when FAQ refers only to untyped bonuses and stacking 'deflection bonus equal to CHA' and 'sacred bonus equal to CHA' and 'untyped bonus equal to CHA' is allowed.

It is obvious that at the very least RAI provides an Oracle of Lore with an ability to cast wizard spells from spellbook once a day.

It is entirely non-obvious what does it mean by RAI above minimum stated above given that there are similar yet different in details entries for Savant, Archmage, and Skald at the very least.
It is equally non-obvious what does it mean by RAW, and i first made this post in PFS section of the forum specifically to promote discussion on RAW rather than RAI.

Regarding FAQ: FAQ explicitly tells us that your-generic-oracle cannot cast wizard spells via Improved Arcane Heritage because despite knowing spell he stil cannot cast it due to not having it on his spell list. Arcane Archivist contains passage that unambiguously refers to spell list, thus circumventing the main argument of FAQ.

@Ferious Thune
It is indeed valid that 'treats as if they were' is more general than 'casts as if they were', however muddy those statements are. RAI it indeed seems to be limited to 1/day casting from spellbook.

Regarding RAW:
I found one more entry - Spell Kenning entry for Skald (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/skald#TOC-Spell-Kenning-Su- ). However, wording here is different: it is combined into single entry 'Once per day, a skald can cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or sorcerer/wizard spell list as if it were one of his skald spells known'.
This seems to me like Skald explicitly knows the spell without having it on his spell list exactly once per day, thus not making it available for spell trigger or spell completion items.

It seems that the entirety of this rule uncertainty boilds down to these questions:

RAI) Is Lore Oracle-11 Arcane Archivist revelation intended to work as a limited version of Skald-5 Spell Kenning class feature?

RAW) Is the wording in AA regarding 'casting arcane[wizard/sorc] spells as if they were on his spell list' intentionally different than that of Spell Kenning Skald class feature that does not mention spell list at all? (Both features later mention spells known though).

Regarding 'as if' wording:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-heroes/mythic-paths-paizo-inc/archmag e/ Divine Knowledge (Ex)
Choose three 1stlevel spells from the cleric spell list or three 1st-level spells from the druid spell list. You can add those spells to your spellbook (if you’re a magus or wizard) or familiar (if you’re a witch) for free and can cast those spells as if they were arcane spells on your class list.

'As if' wording clearly works for Archmage, otherwise one of its features does nothing at all.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/arcane-sav ant/#TOC-Esoteric-Magic-Ex-
At each class level beyond 1st, the arcane savant chooses a spell from any class’s spell list and thereafter treats it as if it were on the spell list of his base spellcasting classes

So, a major class feature of Arcane Savant does not work at all if we treat 'as if' wording like that.
Furthermore, the same feature explicitly restricts usage of spell completion items for esoteric spells by other classes, yet does not restrict Savant in using spell completion/trigger items made with spells of other classes that he knows.

Why separate the rules regarding 'spell list' and 'spells known' then? It would be one thing to state that 'once per day you can cast a single spell from Wizard/Sorcerer spell list as if you had this spell on your spell list and in your list of spells known'. As it is, the passages clearly separate effects of casting spells as if they were on spell list and having single spell known once a day.

Context-wise it is indeed logical to assume that entire revelation deals with wizard/sorcerer spells (errata/faq would be nice though).

>The first sentence in many Revelations
'Many' does not equal 'all' though; also wording for this revelation matches known rule keywords (spell list, casting spells). Stepping out of danger does not seem to match any rule keyword, so i fail to see how this example is applicable here.

Example with meditation does not seem to fit because it covers nonrestricted rule section. There are rules that forbid magic usage unless stated otherwise; if 'meditation' was an established game mechanics and there were rules that forbid meditation unless you posess a class feature that lets you do so, this revelation would indeed give you ability to meditate without having levels of 'meditator' class.

I do agree that indended use seems to not allow eldritch heritage shenanigans, but i am not sold on it not working per RAW.

Also usage of spell completion and spell trigger items seems to be both RAW and RAI for this revelation, as it specifically calls out your experience with written sources of magic.

Power-wise: a regular Cha-oriented character who does not have UMD as class skill has +21 UMD (11 ranks, 3 Circlet of Persuasion, 7 Cha) versus DC25 to cast lvl5 wizard scroll. If you have UMD as class skill you cannot fail roll for lvl5 spells even when rolling nat1, and if you have Skill Focus (UMD) without UMD as class skill you can autosucceed on casting scrolls of levels up to 8. Using wands is flat DC20 so you can autosucceed this since level 9 (nat1 + 9 ranks +7 cha +3 Circlet of Persuasion).

To cast a spell, generally it has to be on your spell list, you should know the spell, maybe you have to prepare it and usually you have to expend a spell slot of corresponding level. Sometimes some of those requirements go away due to using spell completion items or due to class mechanics (prepared vs spontaneous, archetype mechanics akin to Spell Sage Wizard, feats like Unsanctioned Knowledge and so on).

There is an old would-be loophole in these rules that with wrong reading could allow an 11th level Oracle with Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcana/ New Arcana) to add a Sorcerer/Wizard spell to their list of spells known. Per multiple forum threads and an official FAQ we know why this does not work: despite now knowing those wizard spells, our oracle still does not have them on her Spell List, and is thus unable to cast them. This is well-established and I include this just as a baseline.

Now, to the interesting part. Enter Oracle of Lore of level 11 with an Arcane Archivist revelation.

Here's the full text:
Arcane Archivist (Su): Your experience with lore-filled tomes has granted you the ability to cast arcane spells as if they were on your spell list. Once per day, you can cast a spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list as if it were on your list of spells known. The spell consumes a spell slot one level higher than the level of the spell. You must have a spellbook containing the spell to cast it in this way, and the spell is erased when you complete the casting. You must be at least 11th level to select this revelation.

Everything starting from second sentence describes the process of casting spells from spellbook you have (and that contains spells written there by some friendly [N]PC).

The first sentence, hovewer is separated from second by a dot and a capitalization of the first word in second sentence. And the first sentence explicitly gives you the ability to cast arcane spells as if they were on your spell list, because that's what it says.

Now, using Expanded Arcana feat to cheese wizard spells into an Oracle won't work, because despite our Oracle having all arcane spells on his spell list, Expanded Arcana specifically refers to your 'class spell list', which is Oracle/Cleric.

Mnemonic Vestment won't work either, because it explicitly calls out the types of spell being cast and type of spell slot being spent (both should be either divine or arcane).

Hovewer, per RAW those seem like valid interactions:
1) Lvl 11 AA Oracle can use any scroll of any arcane spell without UMD check because she can cast any arcane spell as if it was on her spell list
2) Lvl 11 AA Oracle can use New Arcana from Arcana bloodline per Improved Eldritch Heritage to add one wizard spell to her list of spells known, and due to being able to cast arcane spells per AA, she now both has this spell on her list of spells known and has it on her spell list for the purposes of spellcasting.

These points do not seem cheesy enough to dismiss them as obvious PFS cheese that 'could be legal but is obviously broken and is not good sportsmanship to use': even in more powerful (2) we're talking about single wizard spell being available for an oracle of knowledge-oriented mystery that is weaker than bard/investigator/mindchemist for knowledges, has no useful mystery spells besides Tongues and is going to see action for a whole lot of 6 games before being forced into above-hightier specials couple times a year. (Lore Oracles are still nice as a general 'can-do-almost-anything' class though).

How to rule interactions 1 & 2 in PFS game?

If my familiar performs an action that can be affected by one of the boons i have, can i apply such boon to the action?

* For example, can i apply Grand Lodge's Explorer reward to modify familiar's acrobatics check?

* Can i do the same with Chronicle boon?

* What if the boon is described as a 'gratitude from some named NPC' and the familiar was present during scenario, was intelligent and talking enough to be reasonably recognized as one of those who earned said gratitude (azata, faerie dragon, etc)?

* What if my familiar has 'figment' familiar archetype which makes him a part of my consciousness?

If my familiar performs an action that can be affected by one of the boons i have, can i apply such boon to the action?

* For example, can i apply Grand Lodge's Explorer reward to modify familiar's acrobatics check?

* Can i do the same with Chronicle boon?

* What if the boon is described as a 'gratitude from some named NPC' and the familiar was present during scenario, was intelligent and talking enough to be reasonably recognized as one of those who earned said gratitude (azata, faerie dragon, etc)?

* What if my familiar has 'figment' familiar archetype which makes him a part of my consciousness?

Dantrag wrote:

sadly i already got my face kicked in during the special, damn Crypt Thing did quickened dimension door up my behind and Teleporting Bursted me off the falling rock into more falling rocks,

How is this possible? If you dimension door you can not take any actions until your next turn. I don't see dimensional agility feat on the crypt things entry.

Wow, good catch! I've relayed this intel to the gm and he agreed he made a mistake.

sadly i already got my face kicked in during the special, damn Crypt Thing did quickened dimension door up my behind and Teleporting Bursted me off the falling rock into more falling rocks, i'm afraid of any enemy with SLAs ever since.
I believe i scratched up about 3 or 4 different bonuses from extremely situational items and/or spells and/or chronicle boons to pass reflex save and survive with about 7 hp left.

another tricky part is that i'm somewhat limited in scenario selection, i don't think i'll play 11+ more than once a year, so it's basically start saving now and get to play with it during lvl10-11 or get +4 CHA and play with wand once a year during specials.

I'm playing Oracle of Lore in PFS.
My focus is towards diplomacy, knowledges, utility spells and occasional burst of radiance.

Significant portion of my feats went towards Eldritch Heritage to acquire poor man's quicken spell in the form of speaking familiar and Imbue with Spell Ability spell.

Right now i'm level 8 (1/3 towards 9) and sitting on a 9k gp, and i'm thinking on whether i should invest towards Lesser Quicken metamagic rod.

I plan on mostly using it to drop 1st-round Curse/Blindness-Deafness/Resist Energy, Communal/Burst of Radiance. Other first-round spell will usually be occupied by Blessing of Fervor, or maybe i will drop two curses first round.

Hovewer, rod of Quicken costs 35k gp. That means i'm going to be saving up through the level 8 (+2*5k gp) and level 9 (+3*5k gp), and if i'm only eating conjured water and hunting rats i will be able to buy the rod before first or second scenario at level 10. Which means i'm playing with it for about 5-6 scenarios before i have to retire, so including retiring arc that's 8-9 scenarios where i have the rod.

Or i could upgrade my headband of charisma from +2 to +4 for 12k (raising bonus from +6 to +7) which will give me +1 to reflex, initiative, all knowledges, diplomacy, extra level 3 spell slot (thats 7->8) and that's about it. Also +1 more to will and con saves if i use wand of Bestow Grace, which i will once i get improved familiar that can hold it.
But that will delay my Quicken rod until level 11, which would mean i'm better off spending money somewhere else instead of getting Quicken rod as a retiring gift.

So. Should i start eating dirt to ensure i have it easy when old age comes, or should i burn all money to the ground and possibly die horribly due to some overpowered SLA enemy used in first round?

Sorry, my bad with bard 7: im not familiar with bards. I'm not able to edit post though; i hope folks will read comments.

Wow, Spirit guide archetype seems really strong.
My own lvl 8 Oracle of Lore suffers from the fact that i completely botched point buy (i was new to pathfinder then), and only past level 5 i understood that if you don't have a bunch of fighting feats you might as well have -2 in physical stats.
Thus i started with Str 14, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 8 and Cha 17, wrecking my fort save, will save and total skill points (i only have diplomacy, perception and UMD maxed out).

Good thing i started as half-elf though, paragon surge and extra spell fcb are almost the only thing that keeps me afloat.

Also given that i already had mandatory Skill Focus, i decided to try Eldritch Heritage route for familiar - can't wait for next game so i can check out Imbue with Spell Ability in action. In all three actions it takes to cast three spells.

Hopefully i can make it to level 9 so i can grab Improved Familiar to poke me with Wand of Bestow Grace in the first round of combat.

= Oracle of Lore 1 / Bard 7 =
My pfs character is Oracle of Lore 8.
I was going to write a post about how good and precious it is and how much fun it is to play it (except for combat where it can't do a thing), but i've created Oracle 1 / Bard 7 in PCgen and now i'm depressed.
To be honest, you don't need Bard 7: past second versatile performance at Oracle 1 / Bard 6 you can go wherever you want, but i guess staying at least for Haste is worth it.

Race: Human

Attributes:
Point buy:
Str 12, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 17
Human attribute: +2 Cha
Attributes at level 4 and 8: Cha, Int
Headband of Mental Prowess (Int/Cha) +2 along the way
Total attributes at level 8:
Str 12, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 22

Traits:
Reactionary
Irrepressible (CHA instead of WIS on will saves versus charm/compulsion)

Feats:
Level 1:
Noble Scion (of War)
Extra Revelation

Levels 3,5,7:
Lingering Performance
Prodigy (Perform: Oratory / Comedy)
Improved Initiative

Favored class bonuses:
FCB: bard. 7x Human Bard FCB (extra spell).

Oracle of Lore revelations:
Sidestep Secret (CHA to AC instead of dex (capped by max dex), CHA to Reflex (uncapped))
Lore Keeper (all Knowledges are now CHA skills)

Oracle Curse:
Lame or Clouded Vision, but anything will work if it does not hinder your talking skills (i.e. deaf/mute/hobo curses)

Bard versatile performance:
Oratory (sense motive / diplomacy)
Comedy (Intimidate / bluff)

Gear in no particular order:
Backpack, masterwork 50gp
Gauntlet, Spiked (Cold Iron) 10gp
Circlet of Persuasion (+3 to all CHA checks [Initiative, Concentration, Reflex, social skills, UMD, Knowledges]) 4500gp
Handy Haversack 2000gp
Headband of Mental Prowess (Int/Cha) +2 10000gp
+1 Darkwood Heavy Shield 1257gp
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor 2000gp
+1 Deathless Mithral Agile Breastplate 8400gp
+2 Cloak of Resistance 4000gp

Gear to get through low levels:
5gp - buckler, after first or second scenario get MWK Darkwood Heavy Shield for 2PP
100gp - Chain Shirt

Might get around level 8:
Wand of Bestow Grace (lvl2 paladin spell) 6000gp:
+CHA (thats +6 for you) to all saves (except Reflex as you already have it here) for 4 minutes.
50 uses should last from level 8 until character retirement at 3 uses per scenario, but you need to have high UMD to make it worth;
your checks auto succeed since level 7 (UMD +19) though.

Meaningfull stats at level 8:
HP: 51
AC: 26, flat 21 touch 15
Saves:
Fort +5
Ref +16 (+5 base, +6 CHA, +3 Circlet, +2 cloak)
Will +10 ( +6 cha - 1 wis +3 circlet: +8 extra vs charm/compulsion effects)
Initiative: +15 (+2 reactionary +4 imp.init +6 CHA +3 Circlet)
Skills:
+22 Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Intimidate, Bluff via Perform(Oratory/Comedy) (+6 cha +3 Circlet +3 class +2 Prodigy +8 ranks (note that you only spend ranks on two Perform skills))
+16 Knowledge (all) (+3 bardicKnowledge +6 cha +3 circlet +3 class +1 rank)
If you want, you can focus some knowledges by giving them more than one rank.
Also you can take 10 on all knowledges.
Also you can take 20 once a day on knowledge.
Also half your spellbook grants you bonuses to already made rolls.
+20 UMD (+6 cha +3 circlet +3 class +8 ranks)
Other skills that you should put 8 ranks into:
+9 Acrobatics (you have to jump sometimes)
+9 Escape artist (with your CMD/CMB grapples are dangerous)
+12 Perception
+14 Spellcraft
At level 8, you have (6+1+3)*8 = 80 skill points (some of them are tied to Headband, but i guess you'll retrain your ranks once you get it, so total is the same).
You maxed out Perform(Oratory), Perform(Comedy), UMD, Acrobatics, EscapeArtist, Perception, Spellcraft, thats 7*8=56 skill points.
You put 1 into every knowledge, thats 10 skill points.
You have 14 spare skill points to put wherever you want.
Consider maxing out Linguistics, or at least put some skills here relatively early, to be able to talk to almost every native and/or outsider.
Four elemental languages, Draconic, Celestial and Abyssal are a good choice, though both fiends and angels usually have a form of communication themselves.

There's another way you can go: become the Ultimate Utility guy. I have a pfs character that is now level 8 Lore oracle that i was trying to optimize for utility since level 1.

You have quite decent stats for the same build, so you can try it out.

Pros of this build are that you have great skills, a lot of versatility in spells and you are somewhat tanky, so you can cover your mage from the left, when your fighter covers him from the right.
Cons are that from level 5 and higher you cant hit a thing, neither with ranged weaponry nor in melee due to your horrible bab and lack of combat feats, also you dont have much spell damage besides maybe Admonishing Ray or Burst of Radiance.

First, you get Lore mystery with any curse you want, but beware of anything that might impede your talking to people, being a face of the party is an important part of this build (i took Blind curse).
Then you get Sidestep Secret revelation for CHA to ac/reflex and Lore Keeper for CHA to knowledges.
Then you get Circlet of Persuasion for +3 on CHA checks (note: checks, that means it works with your diplomacy, your knowledge, your reflex save via Sidestep Secret, your initiative via Noble Scion), that can be equipped alongside headband of charisma.
Having the same equipment as almost any other class, you're gonna have almost top AC in a group (around 24 with slightly enchanted Mithral Agile Breastplate and a buckler), you will have (3class + 3circlet +5cha +1rank)= +12 on all knowledge checks, you will have (3+3+5+lvl = a lot) on diplomacy etc.

For feats:
Additional Traits for some more minor upgrades - for example, there's Irrepressible that lets you add CHA instead of WIS for will saves vs compulsion (Circlet of Persuasion applies here, too), or get a perception as a class skill with Observant trait.

War Blessing: twice a day you can bless ally's weapon. Crafter's Wrath destroys golems as it basically gives your fighter/ranger an adamantine weapon.

Eldritch heritage + skill focus (arcana) for that sweet familiar, of course, and you can later get Improved Familiar (i plan on getting it at lvl9 - per EH i will be treated as lvl7 sorc, so that's when the best improved familiars will become available.

For race: if your GM will allow you to change race (it seems to be a complete character rewamp, but i do not know the limits of what he will allow):
Get half-elf.
Seriously, get it. Its completely overpowered for any spellcasting oracle.
You get some immunities, yada yada.
And.
As a favoured class bonus, you get a free spell known, one level lower than your max spell level. That's really a lot, as you probably know by level 5.
But there's more.
Half-elves get to choose Paragon Surge as their lvl3 spell. It gives you some bonuses, yada yada, and gives you an extra feat for the duration, and the choices associated with feat are locked for the day.
It's not exactly powerfull in combat, but it opens you a real lot of options.
Party member got cursed? paragon surge -> expanded arcana -> remove curse.
Magically locked door? paragon surge -> dispel.
Rogue got poisoned and lost some dex? paragon surge -> lesser restoration.
Oh no we have to travel to other plane. Paragon surge -> planar adaptation.
Oh no my friend died and i don't have a resurrect learned. Surge -> resurrect.
Also Surge scales: per Expanded Arcana, you are not restricted in your spell choice. So when you are level 20, you can still use your level 3
slot to temporarily get a spell you don't know.
Clerics are still more versatile than you, but at least you are harder to catch completely off-guard, and you don't have to learn super-situational spells like Remove Curse.

also at level8 you can cast lvl4 spell Imbue with Spell Ability: use it so your familiar (get a talking one, like thrush) can cast some Cure Light Wounds or Communal Protection From Evil, freeing you some actions in combat.

so, FAQ request!
1) If I hold touch spell with a duration (for example Sun Metal), when will the timer start? At the moment of the casting or at the moment of discharge?
2) If I decide to hold a beneficial spell with range:touch and target:weapon, can i discharge it later into the item i was already carrying at the moment of casting?

Dantrag wrote:

Actually, these rules do not specify when the time measure starts; you assume it starts on spellcast while i assume it starts on spellrelease. Is there anything more specific about this matter?

As for delivering spell with natural attack on level 1: my bad. This actually clears it a bit for me, however i do not see anything that forbids me to intentionally release a spell held into item i have on me.

** spoiler omitted **

Putting on the glove discharges your spell as it was not held/worn at the time of casting.

For your second scenario, you have to choose to discharge the weapon into a weapon you are holding, it doesnt do so automatically (this takes a standard action if not done as part of the casting). So if you dont want to discharge into your weapon thats fine, you just cant touch anything else until you discharge it into whatever you want to discharge it into.

I assumed i held the glove in my second hand at the same time i held a weapon in it, sorry, i really thought i mentioned that.

Just realised that the following situation looks kind of silly, thus perfectly illustrating my problem with your ruling:
(assuming your ruling)
1) i cast sun metal and hold it. If i accidently stumble over a polearm on the floor, the spell is discharged into it.
2) i cast sun metal and decide to hold it. Now i can not release it into my mainhand weapon as it was in my hand during a cast.
So i can not intentionally discharge spell, yet i can unintentionally. That's both ridiculous and sad at the same time :-(

As this problem is not adressed in any way by the rules, i tend to think that the least weird explanation is okay. Maybe we should request a FAQ for that?

Actually, these rules do not specify when the time measure starts; you assume it starts on spellcast while i assume it starts on spellrelease. Is there anything more specific about this matter?
As for delivering spell with natural attack on level 1: my bad. This actually clears it a bit for me, however i do not see anything that forbids me to intentionally release a spell held into item i have on me.

In Pathfinder there is a difference between you touching something and something touching you.

Hm. That's somewhat strange as it can be covered by "touching unintentionally", but i can see why they made it so.

Also, i was editing my previous post for too long, here's the rest of arguments:

Also, the whole concept of Magi goes to the bin, as his description was the first entry in the rules to actually describe spells held in second hand as an offhand weapon completely independent of mainhand one. If spells are held globalzied, he's free to apply spell with his natural claws attack (from him being a sorcerer) at level one. But he needs to wait for Spellstrike at level 2 to actually get the ability to discharge spells with hand other than the one he cast them with.
Also about the duration of spells: i can't seem to find the reference to duration starting at the spellcast either. The only rule covering this matter i was able to find states that the charge can be held indefinitely for all spells with range:touch, with no regard to duration.

Dantrag, you have a fundamental misunderstanding on how holding the charge works. The charge is not localized to a specific body part. It you kick something it discharges, if you touch it with your hand discharges, if you touch it with any body part it discharges. However, the game makes the assumption that any object that is currently being held/worn as well as the ground(assuming you are on ground) don't discharge the spell. Trying to cheat the system using a free action to put another hand on the weapon doesn't work. Either the spell automatically discharges from the hand you already have on it, or it takes...

Can you provide a reference for spells being held "globally"? Because if spells are not being held localized, any grapple attempt, weapon attack or body slam againist the mage with a shocking grasp held will cause the magic to be discharged without him even trying to outdice touch AC of the enemy. Also, you would never be able to touchattack anything that's already grappling you (giant squid, giant barbarian). (Note that there's four contradicting entries for casting spells while grappled; and it seems that you can cast spells while grappled, just not any spell and with concentration checks).

Also about the duration of spells: i can't seem to find the reference to duration starting at the spellcast either. The only rule covering this matter i was able to find states that the charge can be held indefinitely for all spells with range:touch, with no regard to duration.

SlimGauge wrote:

_Ozy_ wrote:

Hmm, what about communal buffs or other spells that let you touch multiple people. When are held touch charges completely discharged?

If you check the "Actions in Combat" table, it is a full-round action to "use a touch spell on up to six friends".

That wasn't the question. The question was can you "hold the charge" on communal touch spells.

I believe the question was can you hold the touch buff in your offhand so you can apply it on the next round as a free action (faq: letting go of and grabbing back your weapon with a second hand is a free action) and get an attack with it.

As for your debate which is completely off-topic and irrelevant to the current thread:

Also, holding is hardly an abuse if you do that with Bit of Luck: you spend an SA to cast it, then you buff your weapon on your next round so you can take highest of two attack rolls. OR you can just attack twice consecutively and basically take both of your two attack rolls. It makes sense only if you prepare for something big incoming: but even then, it's not a gamebreaker either.

Btw, thanks for the input. Does anybody else see any weak points in this sequence of actions? Because rehearsing technical disputes before seeing your new DM seems like the only way to be sure you will play the character you intended to :D

In the turns following casting it requires a standard action to make the touch "attack" to properly apply the spell(it automatically hits if the target is friendly), not a free action.

The idea is that it is free action per FAQ to grab one's weapon with second hand, otherwise no wizard would be able to cast a spell and get AoO from his 2h staff on the same turn.

Held spells are not localized to a specific body part, so putting an extra hand on an object already held does nothing. If you draw a new weapon, the spell would discharge as part of drawing that weapon.

The description of magi and the whole idea of priest casting beneficial spells on anybody but himself contradicts the first sentense, as magi rules specifically clarified that a touch spells are attached to a hand that cast them, and it's not a feature of magus but rather "how it works", it has nothing to do with neither Spellstrike nor the rest of his abilities. (edit: technicaly it is a part of SpellCombat's description, but i think the point of spell combat is casting the spells as a part of fullround attack and the ability to move penalties around between casting and attacking)

Also, your italicized sentence contradicts the first part of the quote, because if it would not be free action to discharge a spell into a weapon of your own, you would not be able to combine it with a move action.

Basicaly, right now the only issue left is whether spells are localized to specific hand or not. You can do two-weapon fighting with a mainhand weapon and offhand held spell, so i think spells are localized, as you would not discharge touch spell with your main hand even if it was unarmed.

Spell Reference: Sun Metal

Dantrag wrote:

4) My next round begins, and i have spell charged in my hand. I apply Sun Metal for my weapon as a free action (as it is just a "temporarily placing a hand on a weapon" and requires no concentration whatsoever), walk to the nearest foe who dared to oppose me and smite him for the whopping 1d4 + 1d8 + 2 damage, or miss miserably.

This is where you might have a problem. This is probably not a free action. You only get a free touch when casting a touch spell on the turn that you cast it, after that it's usually a standard action or part of a full attack action.

Touch is a standard action if i cast offensive spell, as i have to make a touch attack. But i am not attacking, i am just grabbing my own weapon. Per FAQ:

Thus I have to spend additional SA to touch somebody else's weapon, yet touching my own is a free action, as I am not "Touch attacking" it but just re-grabbing as if to power attack, and spel just goes off into it.
tldr: It would have been an SA if it was touch attack, but it is not.

Let me get straight to the point.
If i, being a lvl 1 divine caster, cast Sun Metal on my weapon and don't get any AoOs, i wont make even one attack with it, as it will dissipate just before the start of my next round.
I think i came up with somewhat a solution for this problem, yet i would like some people other than me to take a look at my master plan, as it is possible i overlooked some flaw in it.

Setup: level 1 oracle/cleric with morningstar, buckler and sun metal spell.

Default way:
1) I cast Sun Metal with my offhand, losing +1 bonus from buckler for the round.
2) As a part of casting a spell with a range "touch", i, well, touch my morningstar with my offhand, and it gains SunMetal.
3) I spend a round possibly getting some AoOs with my flaming morningstar.
4) My next round comes up: i can attack somebody, yet i already do not have SM on my weapon.

Intricate way:
1) I cast Sun Metal with my offhand, losing +1 bonus from buckler for the round.
2) As a part of casting a spell with a range "touch", i have to touch my weapon. But i will not.
*) Note that the spell is not autodischarged onto my weapon, for if this was the case, no oracle or cleric or whoever would be able to buff his friends' weapons without first letting go of his own. As people can enhance other people's weapons with magic, and because of existence of Magi who specifically say so, i assume that the spell is being held in my specific hand (offhand) rather than in both of them as a lot of people seem to think, and is being held until i, at will or accidentally, touch anything with this hand.
3) I wait for my next turn, getting AoOs with my morningstar without any enchants and catching arrows with my knees due to lack of buckler.
*) I see possibilities for GMs here to homerule that if i am successfully grappled, i must roll something like d20, and on 1-6 the spell goes to the enemy's weapon, and or 7-14 it fizzles due to being discharged into the floor/enemy's armor/other things that do not benefit from this spell and on 15-20 it is still in hand.
*) Also i believe it makes sense to homerule that you won't get a buckler bonus until you've discharged a spell, as you are actively trying to _not_ discharge it onto an enemy's flail.
4) My next round begins, and i have spell charged in my hand. I apply Sun Metal for my weapon as a free action (as it is just a "temporarily placing a hand on a weapon" and requires no concentration whatsoever), walk to the nearest foe who dared to oppose me and smite him for the whopping 1d4 + 1d8 + 2 damage, or miss miserably.
5) I wait for my next turn, now without the penalty to the AC (i didn't cast any spells, so my buckler is back). Also i am getting one AoO with my flaming morningstar.

Well, that's it. What are your thoughts on this matter? It seems as it is perfectly legal and not game breaking to do, yet i would like to learn all possible reactions to this sequence of actions as it is possible in PFS to play with a GM you don't know.