Merisiel

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I agree that the Liturgists is currently too strong because of Dancing Invocation. I would like to see it changed to something like "Once per Round, the first time you sustain a vessel spell, you can Step as a Free Action". That would go a long way to solving the Elf Stepping Liturgist problem. Giving Circle of Spirits for free is fine (though maybe it should just be a baseline action for all Animists). But it's something you could similarly do by with a Human char with Natural Ambition.

Channeler's stance should be errata'd to clarify the damage increase only applies to the initial damage and healing, and no ongoing damage. It already specifies this for the healing part, so this wouldn't be too out there as far as errata go.

Embodiment of the Battle should probably not give you Reactive Strike at level 1. If nothing else I think this is the big thing that pushes it over the limit. Providing it at 4th rank would be better, given that's the level range where most non-fighter martials will have their own versions, but that would make Store Time essentially useless until level 6. Maybe a better compromise would be to give Embodiment its own, bespoke but weaker version of Reactive Strike. Or making it more like Monk's Stand Still, and have a feat to upgrade it to let it interrupt Manipulate actions as well? This is likely too much change to be implemented though.

Teridax wrote:

Oo, I like this thread!

I will say, though, that framing the issue purely in terms of nerfs is likely to be contentious, and I think it would first help to ground the case in why this is a problem with a tangible impact on players, and why this could benefit from a change. Here are my arguments:

  • From my experience, I have had to explicitly brief my Animist players on being mindful of other party members when choosing their daily apparitions each day and building their character in general, because in the instances when I didn't, the Animist ended up treading so heavily on the toes of other party members that they sometimes ended up outperforming them at their own specialty, especially when blasting. Thus, I think the Animist has a genuine problem of eating the lunch of other player characters and then some.
  • On the flipside, the most common complaint I have heard from people considering an Animist is that the class is far too complicated and has way too many moving parts, and this alone has turned many players away. I do therefore think the class could stand to be made more accessible.
  • When fellow players played an Animist, their biggest complaint was that they felt none of their decisions really mattered in their long run, and they struggled to come up with a consistent identity for their character when so much of them changed from day to day. This extended to their apparitions, whose impermanence made it difficult to roleplay any sort of lasting bond. Having played an Animist myself, I feel like I've essentially played every Animist in one go, and playing a different character of the same class would just lead to the same general patterns of preparing spells, apparitions, and wandering feats. I think the Animist could therefore stand to have more meaningful permanent decisions to make and more replayability as a result.

    Thus, while I will be the first to accuse the Animist of being overpowered and poorly-designed, I would also advocate for empathy as a guiding principle when...

  • I see the logic behind this. And I have felt the problems you mention of Animist feeling like they all play the same, lack a solid "build", and can't really develop any rapport with their spirits. But I think that streamlining it ultimately makes the class less unique.

    I disagree that the current Animist is too complicated. It's a lot of homework to learn the different Vessel, Apparition Spells, and Wandering feats. But that's also true for classes like the Alchemist, or having to learn the different Domain Spells. The learning curve is part of the charm for some, and with how many classes we currently have I'm no longer swayed by the argument that it chases too many new players away. Just warn them that it's a hard first class to play, and to maybe consider any of the other tens of options if that sounds off-putting.

    I also disagree that it's overpowered, or eating other classes' lunch. I think there's moments where an Animist will outshine somebody, due to circumstances and solid play. But an Embodiment Animist will consistently lag behind a true Martial in terms of raw numbers. Their to-hit modifier isn't any crazier than what a Bard or Warpriest can achieve. And, similar to those classes, the fact that Embodiment is built on status bonuses means there's a ceiling on how strong it can be. And all of this at the cost of losing one action per turn to sustain (on top of other vessel spells you might want to sustain) and a non-trivial malus to spell attacks and your spell DC.

    What makes Embodiment so good is that it's so easy. It's everything you need rolled into one spell: weapon proficiency, bonus to hit and to damage making up for the fact that you can't have DEX or STR as a primary stat, and reactive strike. Where other casters would need to heavily invest into feats and spells like Courageous Anthem or Bless to close the gap, Animist just gets all of it in a single focus spell. (It also drives home even further how bad Battle Oracle has it but I digress)

    Similarly, Channeler's Stance is strong when used at the right moment. But much more limited than Sorcerous Potency. Earth's bile is maybe a little overtuned (damage progression comparable to Clinging Ice, but AoE and with extra persistent damage) but it's also the only blasting focus spell to benefit from Stance. Their other options are their apparition spells, which you have far fewer of. You may be able to match the damage of Sorcerer's Spells a couple of times, but they'll do it far more often than an Animist ever could. And if you have Embodiment of the Balance you might want to save those slots for some heals. Blaster Animist works, but has far less gas in the tank than most any other blaster.

    I think what surprises/annoys people far more is how effortlessly an Animist can slide in and out of different roles. If built correctly they can swap between blasting, healing, and attacking on the fly, just at the cost of some actions. That's not something any other class gets to have. But that is also a big part of what makes the class fun and unique. Their specialty is not having a specialty or set path.
    That's ultimately what leads to them feeling homogeneous across tables/games: If you can't specialize your other option is to diversify, so that's what everyone does.

    I don't think that makes it a bad class though, it's just not for everybody.


    Elves eyes are described as

    Quote:
    Wide and rounded, featuring large and often vibrantly colored pupils that make up the entire visible portion of the eye. These pupils give them an alien look and allow them to see sharply even in very little light.

    I haven't really seen the "vibrantly colored" pupils so much in official product art, it seems like it's just completely black 90% of the time.

    The Changeling versatile heritage puts special emphasis on the fact that all changelings have heterochromia:

    Quote:
    Though a changeling generally resembles a member of their father's ancestry, their distinctive eyes—each a different color—set them apart. One of their eyes matches that of their father's lineage, while the other matches the color of their hag mother's, often in an unnatural shade such as violet or a vivid green.

    How would this look with an Elf Changeling if they have little to no iris around their pupils? Is one eye still going to be mostly pupil but with a different color hue? For example if you took the Callow May lineage feature on an Elf character would one eye basically be a really dark green?