Chris Wong Sick Hong's page

In any society (online or not) without tyrannical constraints on behavior, it's impossible to stop griefers. Just look at a typical high school. I believe that the search for an ironclad system to prevent them buys into the utopia fallacy: 'If it can't stop any and all griefing, it's not good enough.'

Ultimately, this is a design decision. As long as open PvP, as well as other interactions, are allowed, there will be griefing. Also, part of the allure of such a lawless frontier world is the lawlessness. (In many, many such tabletop games, the players tend to grief everyone around them, but because they have a writ of mark or whatever from the king, the NPCs tend to kowtow. The problems and complaints only arise when they're on the receiving end.) This isn't a game mechanic problem so much as an immature player problem.

The lack of filling out forms, reporting, rep system and such also isn't a mechanic problem so much as an 'it's someone else's responsibility' problem.

It's an issue of community building. If enough people are willing to put in the time and effort and frustration of building a viable community, it works. If not, no amount of mechanics can do anything if they're unused.

Much of the posts on this topic approach this from a mechanical perspective. I'd like to come at it from more a psychological/sociological perspective, and then derive mechanics from there.

@KitNyx, I'd like to modify and expand your axioms in a direction that I believe will be more productive for purposes of dealing with griefing.

1. There is open world PvP
1.a. Griefing will be impossible to stop completely
2. Players play games, in part, as escapist fantasies, to have fun.
2.a. For some, this means playing in a safe environment where griefing doesn't exist, because they deal with this crap enough IRL.
2.b. For some, this means doing things, being somebody, because the world really doesn't care a lot. (In my experience, anecdotal as it is, this is a big motivation for many people to play D&D. IRL, they're a lowly sys admin who's looking at at least a few more years grinding out company faction before a promotion is even an option.)
2.c. For some, this means role-playing a real world where hard work is involved for achievement (which in some senses is the antithesis of 2.b.)
2.d. For some, this means taking out their frustrations for which they don't have any other outlet, i.e. griefing, in order to get that ego boost.
3. Game mechanics can reduce griefing, but in order to do so without breaking immersion, they must flow from story considerations, rather than meta considerations.
4. However, there is no system that cannot be circumvented, so the design aim is robustness, rather than perfection. The evaluation of 'robustness' depends on the design aim--which play styles/forms of escapism the game is intended to nurture.
5. If the design aim allows all alignments, griefing, which is an excellent demonstration of the essence of CE, is automatically acceptable. If you don't like that, it's the same as if you don't like a GM. Find another table, another game.
5.a. On the other hand, if griefing is not acceptable and the design aim specifically bars it, some things like limiting PvP to zones, etc., make more sense. If you don't like that, again, find another table, another game.

In a large part, this seems to be as much a design philosophy debate versus a mechanics debate.

So, for my part, I'm going to assume that, along with open PvP, all alignments are allowed (for realism), meaning that griefing is acceptable from the design point of view. Thus, Kit's axiom 5 is not true. Less griefing is not good for the community. Productively handled griefing is.

So, knowing that the Chaotic Evil playstyle is going to be present (not having rules and deriving pleasure from others' misery), how can you keep that from dominating the other playstyles?

I think the highsec/lowsec idea from EVE online is a great start, as well as @Urlithani's ideas. As base, I'm assuming these playstyles, both RP and mechanics:

Individual-oriented
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griefing (CE)
tyrannies - NBSI (LE)
heroic champion, fighting for the forces of good (LG)
robin hood-esque (fight the system for the right reasons) - (CG)
I just want to do cool things and look cool doing it. Who cares why?
I hate people, just let me kill mobs and find things
crafting (any)
merchants (any)

Community-oriented
------------------
City/kingdom building, mainly an extension of the previous. Griefer strongholds, paladin-led cities, etc.

Next, every world needs something to start from. If you just drop people into a world with no existing infrastructure, it will be chaos. The bullies will win, at least until enough people put in the time and effort needed to actually civilize things. Which will take a long time.

So I propose:

Seed cities (mainly GM/NPC control):
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Axongraffyl (CE) - hidden in the mountains away from the more civilized societies, Axongraffyl is a blight upon the land. As of yet, though, it is too strong to be conquered and destroyed. Much of the evil resources are in this area.

Griefing Quests
Kill x number of player characters for rewards. Doesn't matter who or where. If you're feeling ballsy, accept a quest to kill someone with high faction from a city with opposing alignment.

Or, the leader of Axongraffyl has a long-standing challenge. Anyone who wins the Tournament of Blood gets uber loots. However, you need over 200 PvP duel kills just to qualify, and these kills only count if you win a duel against someone with more (overall, tourney and non-tourney) PvP duel victories than you. Of course it's to the death, and maybe contestants get a special weapon which makes death penalties that much more severe.

This won't completely contain the griefers, and there will be rogues, but it will give PvP-ers with griefing tendencies some organization and structure. If they have an outlet, plus any travel time issues, it will be harder to grief.

Also, the LG punishment, rather than hell or timeout, could be exile to Axongraffyl. They step off the teleportation circle and find the newbie gank squad waiting for them (which you know is going to exist). Welcome to Axongraffyl. These are your people now.

===

Milorian (LG) - Milorian is a shining beacon of order, which isn't to some people's tastes. They're dedicated to taming the world and making it a safe place for people to live and prosper. Under the rule of law, of course.

As part of that, they're more than willing to help anyone homesteading. They do the land registry, as @Urlithani mentions, plus also have golems for sale/rent. For people just starting out, they'll provide one or 2 low level golems for free. They're quick, strong and scary. The basic ones patrol an area and lay the beatdown on any PvP action.

For more powerful ones, as well as merchant guards, you have to pay, with one exception. If your golems are ever destroyed or made ineffective, the church in Milorian will give you upgraded ones for free in the name of advancing civilization. (This would probably require GM intervention by reading game logs, seeing what happened, etc.)

You could game the system by having people beat them up for you, true, but that would lead to ever more powerful golems enforcing anti-PvP laws. If griefers are going to game the system in their favor, I don't see a problem with allowing people wanting to make a homestead game the system in their favor.

Plus, those who attack the higher level golems get recorded (as part of the golems' abilities). If it goes on long enough, they lose any lawful and/or good part of their alignment just for striking them (with the attendant atonement quests).

And if it gets too bad, the high priests in Milorian ask for (and are granted) a miracle, which gives a town near unbreakable protection. One-hit incaps, large attack range, insane speed. If it gets to be too much, have a world event/patch in which they get nerfed. MMOs are always a work in progress.

They also hire out golems and guards for hunters, resource expeditions, etc.

As for justice in the lands they directly control, offenses are fines/imprisonment. For sever crimes, severe punishment with the option for exile to Axongraffyl. If they catch someone with high Axongraffyl faction, that's obviously not a choice. Though they may use them as agents to infiltrate and cause chaos.

Defender Quests
Players can sign up to defend the passes. While they can't destroy Axongraffyl, there are defended mountain forts. Sign up for a tour of duty and protect the civilized lands. Patrol an area, man the walls, beat back an NPC monster invasion, etc.

===

LE city
Much the same as Milorian, but their golems are laws and guard have a decidely NBSI character. You need papers, and guards are more than willing to rough you up. They typically don't deal with jail time, etc., but can be bribed into mercy. Otherwise, if you screw up, off to Axongraffyl you go.

They're also not as free with their golems. You want protection, you'd better be able to pay for it.

===

CG city
Laws are a bit looser, and smuggling's not uncommon. However, basic decency applies. I'm running out of steam here, so I'll leave it at this, but this is the basic framework I'm envisioning.

I realize that there are extreme situations, like a bunch of CEs manage to overrun the passes and wreak havoc. Then out goes the call for heroes. There are legends of an ancient artifact left behind by the God of Justice for just such an occasion. Who is brave and skilled enough to undertake the quest? Information will leak, CEs will try to stop them -- in short, you'll have an epic save-the-world fantasy situation with players on both sides. Who will accept the call? Even CE players may decide that the status for being the heroes will be worth it and aid in the quest for redemption. Or maybe just a chance to grief a griefer they hate.

This could also go the other way. If LG clans manage to overpower Axongraffyl, the CE quests start to revolve around finding the evil artifact to restore balance. Word leaks out, the good aligned try to stop them, etc.

If the balance of players, power-wise, gets to be too much, the game itself could start tilting in favor of balance (i.e. successful completion of the artifact storyline for whichever faction is currently screwed). Why? Because of the subtle machinations of the Overdeity, which prefers balance in accordance with its own inscrutable whims.

Well, that's my contribution. It will need extensive GM and player involvement, as well as excellent design, but it might be doable. Maybe throw in some magically protected non PvP areas which are under the protection of the God of Mercy, have them resource-rich enough to be viable (maybe a crafting haven?) and people with too many PvP kills just can't enter without undergoing atonement quests.