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To me it sounds like your ideal vision of a 1st level Fighter and 20th level Fighter is basically identical, except one is better at Fightering and otherwise does similar jobs in a similar context. That feels wrong and absurd and doesn't at all match the changing levels of fantasy I see in most campaigns progression.

I dropped the example with the arcane, try to explain the athletics for different in skills, training and lvl characters. A 20 lvl warrior should have more opportunities to learn something new and cool. Spend at this time (lvlups), but do not get it automatically, despite his physical ability. He wants to learn magic - go ahead, spend something for it. 1 lvl warrior did not yet have the opportunity to learn something special. This is the difference.

Ch0ppa wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Ch0ppa wrote:

Okay, let's drop the arcane. Athletic and legendary in it 1 lvl warrior this 20 str vs 20 lvl invalid of any class this 5 str. Same situations for every skill. Performance, acrobatic, crafting... You can not find excuse for everything, there is a logical problem in the system.

The level 20 STR 5 person with disabilities (because calling people "invalid" is so 1970) is a legendary adventurer who can do amazing things despite their frail frame. He or she is basically Splinter, Master Roshi, Yoda, Cohen the Barbarian or any other "Old/Weak/Frail Master" trope representative.

But he has problems with his body, with his muscles. How can his knowledge help raise a heavy stone better than a super strong but little experienced person? I have same question for every skill.

It's not knowledge. It's concentrated power of awesome and cosmic might, which you have plenty of at level 20 but close to none at level 1. Back in the days, higher levels meant that you are beyond human, which is something PF 2 seems to go back to.

Okay, PC is semi god, he can click his fingers to cast spell to destroy a big city, иut how can he be good at what he never did. It's dump to say that he good at every thing because he get an legend in something. And this also does not close the question of why the characters of the same level and the same stats have at a different (legend and untrained) level of training have a difference in the throw of only 5.

Ch0ppa wrote:

Okay, let's drop the arcane. Athletic and legendary in it 1 lvl warrior this 20 str vs 20 lvl invalid of any class this 5 str. Same situations for every skill. Performance, acrobatic, crafting... You can not find excuse for everything, there is a logical problem in the system.

The level 20 STR 5 person with disabilities (because calling people "invalid" is so 1970) is a legendary adventurer who can do amazing things despite their frail frame. He or she is basically Splinter, Master Roshi, Yoda, Cohen the Barbarian or any other "Old/Weak/Frail Master" trope representative.

But he has problems with his body, with his muscles. How can his knowledge help raise a heavy stone better than a super strong but little experienced person? I have same question for every skill.

Okay, let's drop the arcane. Athletic and legendary in it 1 lvl warrior this 20 str vs 20 lvl invalid of any class this 5 str. Same situations for every skill. Performance, acrobatic, crafting... You can not find excuse for everything, there is a logical problem in the system.

Thing is, that warrior survived to level 20.

He's probably fought dragons, battled through armies of skeletal mages, broken major artefacts, and sought advice from the highest sages of all the lands for his quests.

Level 1 wizard? Guy just stumbled out of the county fair magic sideshow. With 20 int the guy has great potential, but he has none of the field experience of the warrior. The warrior can out-guess him on the unknown magic things on pure honed intuition at this point. I *like* that the math works out like this.

I could stand to see the expert/master/legendary bonuses doubled to +2/+4/+6 though.

But the warrior has never been interested in magic in his life, it shows by his untrained in arcane. He knows how to hide from this, but not how it works. I've seen a lot of aircraft engines for my life, but I don't know how they work in detail. I didn't study it.

So, we got young but genius 1 lvl wizard this 20 int and (purely for experimentation) he is legendary in arcane and we have 20 lvl fighter dumb as a stump this 5 int and totally untrained in arcane. And they meet each other. They started talking about magic. One mooch, and the other speaks academic language. They suddenly see some weird magic affect and they both want to understand it. They both want to do arcane check. Dumb warrior got +15 for arcane check and genius wizard get only +9. If we find a smart warrior this 10 int and legendary but not so smart wizard this 20 lvl and 10 int for this conversation, we would have +18 and +23. It's very weird situations. Stat bonus and skills has little effect on checking at high levels because if u untrained u just have lvl minus only 2. I think giving proficiency bonus equal to your lvl isn't correct.