BiscuitCookie's page

Pinner isn't flatfooted he is denied dex to ac (sorry for semantics again.) Compared to entirly denied dex bonus of the one being pinned.

Well to be honest it seems being pinned not being mentioned as helpless seems more of a balancing design than a realistic design I think.

Maybe if we're lucky some FAQ will solve this. (I marked your one with the tie pin and helpless rules)

Again http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9og8
while this is a situation where you basically have the same penalties as being flat footed isn't the same as being denied your dex bonus.

I'm mostly saying this because there are abilities that work against flatfooted don't work against something that is denied dex but not flat footed.

Okay, I can see that.

Okay I checked being bound status you can still cast those things as well.

Still the pinned condition has no reference to helpless or having 0 dex.

And neither has the helpless condition any reference to being pinned.

Ascalaphus wrote:

Hmm. I seem to've misremembered Helpless making melee attacks auto-hit, you're right about that.

However, that still doesn't reconcile the following:
- Pinned makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC
- Helpless makes you function as if you had a Dex of 0

If Pinned was meant to make you helpless, there's little point in mentioning that it negates Dex bonus to AC.

Furthermore,
- Pinned creatures take a -4 to AC
- Helpless grants melee attacks a +4 to hit as if you were prone

By adding Helpless to the effects of Pinned, you're basically doubling the effects. If that was really intended I think Pinned would mention it.

That's a completely wrong conclusion*:

Pinned means you're flatfooted (and some grapple penalties, otherwise irrelevant here) since flatfooted means you are denied your dex to AC, its just backwards semantics for "FF=no DEX"

Condition: Pinned wrote:

A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Helpless means you have a DEX of zero, which in of itself is not actually FF, a +4 to hit against you in melee, and people can basically get free vorpal effects on you with as a special action

Condition: Helpless wrote:

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target

...

Pinned doesn't mean you're flatfooted http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9og8

I believe the "this works like a pin effect" refers to performing the pin action when grappling.

Also while pinned you can still cast spells (except ones with a somatic or material component) and use spell-like abilities. Also while pinned you're still allowed to retry to escape even after you failed.

7. Pinned creature cannot make reflex saves as they are helpless, they autofail.

8. The pinned condition does not remove the grappled condition and the penalties stack as all penalties do, it's part of what makes breaking a pin really hard to do.

Everything else is correct.

Edit: for 7, I'm fairly sure if you are flatfooted you can't make reflex saves from attack rolls or directly from actions (like spells) at all, but this could just be fiat in rule's clothing in my mind.

Being helpless doesn´t deny you your saves. it puts your dex at a -5 modifier.

Being pinned doesn't make you helpless.

1. Yes. "Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD."

7. No, it is denied dex to everything (see 3).

1. Well that's a small nerf compared to normal barb rage which is annoying.

7. What if it only has like 13 or less dex wouldn't it end with a better reflex?

1. Does the UnBarb rage lower CMD by 2 because of the -2 to AC?

2. When grappled it lowers both AC and CMD by 2 because of the -4 dex penalty. Correct?

3. Does being pinned only deny Dex to AC or deny Dex to everything? If only denied to AC would it also deny dex to CMD?

4. Being pinned means -4 to ac and -4 to CMD because of the AC penalty. Correct?

5. Does the Brutal Pugilist's Savage Grapple also ignore having to deny your dex to AC when pinning something?

6. When being pinned you can make no attacks (except freeing yourself). correct?

7. Wouldn't a pinned creature have a better reflex save than a grappled creature because of the dex penalty (if only denied dex to AC)?

8. Do any of the penalties stack from being grappled and being pinned?