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Well... cool for us, and not them, of course. ;)

I was discussing with somebody the way that Pathfinder 2e does weaknesses the other day, and I flipped through the fiends to explain that weaknesses could be trait-based and not only based on damage type (weakness holy is a good example of this imo), and afterwards I continued to flip through them because I wanted to remind myself of their resistances, and I was reminded of something that kinda irked me when we got Monster Core.

"Why is it that only Demons have special vulnerabilities out of the three main fiends (demon, daemon, devil)? And, for that matter, why DON'T demons really have any resistances?"

For those unaware, all but three listed demons have a special "vulnerability" tied closely to the sin that formed that demon's larva into what it is. The classic example is the Succubus's "Rejection Vulnerability", where anybody who succeeds a save against their mental effects or when they fail their Embrace ability or any Request, they take 2d6 mental damage, as their entire purpose of corrupting others through their lusts is being left unsatisfied. The three demons that don't have one (or something akin to it, in the dretch pusk's and quasit's case): The balor, the katpaskir, and the vrolikai. Notably, the katpaskir is a demon that debuted in an AP, but the same AP also debuted a different demon - the ghalzarokh - that DOES have a vulnerability.
I chalk these demons up as being "the best of the best" and as such an exception proving the rule. Vrolikai, in particular, are created when a powerful demon has devoured so many souls that the individual desires that each have are all drowned out in the slurry of sin, meaning that no one desire is strong enough to show a weakness. The other two were written under the OGL as well, but even most of the pre-mastered demons had this unique thing, so it's definitely not a Remaster phenomena.

Now, that's not to say that devils and daemons don't have some theming in this area. Devils have a blanket immunity to fire and nearly all (if not all) of them have a blanket resistance to physical damage from non-silver sources and poison. Daemons have a blanket immunity to death effects, and individual daemons sometimes have immunity to effects related to the type of life-ending that they represent (e.g. agradaemons are immune to fire, astradaemons immune to void). But the only one that really comes close to being so flavorful on an individual fiend level is the phistophilus (contract devil), with its "Ward Contract" immunity.

Devils and daemons are fiends that are very often portrayed just as strongly-tied to what they represent as demons are. So why don't they also have "specific" banes or resistances? And for that matter, why are pretty much all plane-affiliated celestials even less fleshed-out in this manner?

While I understand that Starfinder's lore is somewhat separated from Pathfinder's for Gap reasons, I would presume that, moving on to use a lot of 2e's assets, we're "rewiring" the magic system to fit the Four Traditions - which, in turn, means that we're using the Four Essences that they are built upon as a concept.

For those unfamiliar (or a little rusty on that lore tidbit), the Four Traditions of magic (Arcane, Primal, Divine, and Occult) are the way they are because their practitioners manipulate two of these four essences primarily, if not exclusively. The four essences that pre-Gap scholars believed made up reality (and thus, that magic manipulates) are mind, matter, spirit, and life. The Four Traditions of Magic each primarily manipulate two of these essences - Arcane affects mind and matter, Primal affects matter and life, Divine affects life and spirit, and Occult affects spirit and mind. This is the reason why most healing spells are locked to the Primal and Divine lists, for example - at least ludonarratively.

With that preface out of the way, I've noted some spells and things which I feel don't necessarily fit into the typical tradition's "lore aesthetic". While I acknowledge this has happened before in P2e (like some of the spells in Howl of the Wild or Rage of Elements) and that the entire essence assumption could be outdated by in-universe standards, the playtest document doesn't state much to go on in the flavor front, so I can only really use this as a baseline for what feels "off" to me.

>Firstly, some Paradox weirdness. The Anomaly and Gap-influenced paradoxes, from their flavor texts and granted warp spells, seem to suggest that their granted tradition lists should be swapped. Typically speaking, time shenanigans can both occupy Arcane and Occult primarily (and rarely in Primal and Divine), but with the granted spells and Warp Spell flavor of basically being a nexus for multiple alternate realities just SCREAMS Occult to me, not Arcane. In a similar manner, Gap-Influenced's spells focus on physically deleting both matter and memory (as well as having a very classic scholarly "wizard-type" flavor text) suggests it feels more Arcane to me.

>Rhythm being a Primal connection and Shadow being a Divine one feels real weird. The Song of the Spheres seems to be reflected in most other spells and such as a Divine/Occult thing? Whereas Shadows being Divine feels pretty wrong, since that's usually the domain of Arcane/Occult, though the specific mention of the Netherworld suggests that perhaps we're working with the Vitality/Void aspect of shadows. I understand that Mystic probably won't have Arcane, and the playtest material suggests Occult is less of a focus to the Mystic than Primal/Divine. Perhaps Rhythm should be Divine and Shadow should be Primal? After all, First World concepts tend to be Primal, and our new "planar map" shows that the Netherworld is to the Void what the First World is to Creation's Forge.

>As for spells specifically... Detect Thoughts feels more Arcane than Divine, since you're detecting minds, not life. Entropy Strike feels like it should be Primal since we're manipulating entropy of matter, and the Occult connection is only vague (entropy and time being related). Feline Senses is Divine for some reason? Gravity Field and Personal Gravity exclude Divine, yet Gravity Tether includes it for some reason. Recharge Weapon feels strange on the Occult list. Shifting Surge deals with changing a weapon's elemental damage which is NOT Occult's wheelhouse at all. Wave of Warning is a reskinned Chain Lightning, but it deals nonlethal mental damage and is described as "psychic energy", which is definitely more Occult than Primal.

And these are just the ones I've kinda fixated on, and are based on my interpretation/perception of the magical lore of Pathfinder/Starfinder. I'm sure my one, singular opinion will be regarded as fact and nobody will disagree with me whatsoever, but please feel free to discuss anyways! I think things like these are subtly important to the cohesion of the world that Paizo has built, and I'd like to see how others might view it.

I've been thinking a lot about inhabitants of the Outer Planes recently. Having finished a very long Wrath of the Righteous (the CRPG) campaign and being about to start up a 2e-converted Hell's Vengeance tabletop campaign, it's hard not to think about demons and devils and azatas, and such.

When I was noodling around, attempting to build my Knight Commander in 2e for S&Gs, I noticed a few spells from the Arcane list at 6th level that hadn't immediately caught my attention when I first flipped through Secrets of Magic: Demon Form, Daemon Form, and Devil Form. "Neat," I thought. "Wonder if the Divine list has the celestials as battle forms." Look at the Divine list, 6th level, and... nothing.

Now, in reality, I'm not too surprised. The creatures of the lower planes have always had a bit more of a spotlight on them, mostly due in part to the fact that adventurers that are on grand quests that involve Outer Planes tend towards the Good spectrum, thus they're often trying to fight Evil, and so Evil needs to be more fleshed out and interesting. But then, of course, flipping over to 7th level Divine list, I find one celestial form that irks me probably more than it should: Angel Form.

Now, don't get me wrong - I have nothing against angels as creatures. I do like the fact that there is a type of celestial that represents the willingness of "good" outsiders to work with each other, even if their planes represent different core beliefs. What does frustrate me is that angels tend to be used in substitute of ALL the good outsiders, rather than being a separate interconnected group, much like in this instance.

For those not in-the-know, much like how the three Lower Planes each have fiends unique to them - Devils from Hell, Daemons from Abaddon, Demons from the Abyss - each Upper Plane also has its own set of unique inhabitants that represent the different facets of their homes: Heaven has Archons, Nirvana has Agathions, and Elysium has Azatas.

So why, then, do we only get Angel Form? Archons, Agathions, and Azatas are all about as diverse, both mechanically AND flavorfully, as Devils, Daemons, and Demons, and yet we end up with another example of the long list of making all the Upper Planes seem like one blob. If the argument was to save space, then why didn't we get, say, a Fiend Form instead of all three spells?

If you were to create a Battle Form spell for these three outsiders, how would you do it? Which members would you choose for these forms and what abilities would they get?

I'll admit I've been stewing on this one for a bit, but I decided to wait at least until the day the PDF was publicly available so that *at least* Subscribers could have a good look at things and have some time to think on them. And to also not spoil too many people on something they may have wanted to read first. But in that case, maybe you should leave before reading any further.
And to preface this, I am absolutely loving - no, ADORING the book! My brain is already stewing with ideas on characters, and the whole description of the Expanse and its peoples is just gorgeous. But, there is just one thing that's niggling in the back of my mind...

Was there any reason why the spider form on PC Anadi had to be so darn restrictive?

Can't use weapons? Sure, alright, they aren't a culture drawn to fighting, and other cultures' weapons aren't made for their body types.
Can't use shields? ...Okay, fine. It's not hard to imagine a spider holding up one of their EIGHT LEGS to Raise a Shield, which I could imagine is possible since shield straps are meant to fit on smooth arms, but whatever - again, Anadi aren't a fighting culture, so maybe their limbs just can't handle that.
Can't use held items? Yeah, sure, a lot of held items are definitely awkward for what is effectively the equivalent of a hairy bendy pole to hold - glass bottles for elixirs and potions, smooth wood of canes and staves (despite there being art of an anadi wearing a staff on its back), and the like. I get it.

Can't use *any action with the manipulate trait?* WHOA, there, bucko. Hold on. That's... a bit much. You realize how many actions... *have* the manipulate trait, right? Assuming it really does mean *just* actions RAI and it doesn't include Activities, and not counting all the Feats that have the Manipulate trait... Archives of Nethys counts *23*, and there's one more big one that I'm aware it's missing.

Now, I'm not gonna go into detail on all twenty-three Actions it listed and explain why an Anadi could use one-to-eight of their *eight legs* to at least simulate the things that finger-gifted ancestries can... unless someone else wants me to, it might be a fun exercise. I'm just gonna focus on two, since I think they not only are very detrimental to the Ancestry, but also just show a distinct lack of cohesion between flavor and function of it.

Specifically, Crafting and Casting a Spell with somatic components are both actions that have the Manipulate trait. Now, that already is a pretty big red flag - you're locked off of casting a large portion of spells *and* any Crafting while in your spider form. You *have* to change to human form, or take the Ancestry Feat to gain a Hybrid Form to do these things, along with any of the other 22 actions Archive of Nethys lists.

What do you get in exchange for losing access to weapons, shields, held items, and (for the sake of simplicity) Crafting and a lot of spells?
Agile, Unarmed Fangs that deal 1d6 piercing damage.

Whoa. Are you sure this isn't like a tested version of the Change Shape before release? Even from just a gameplay perspective this is a HUGE cost for a benefit that just isn't gonna be worth it for people who like the spider form.
If I'm a caster character, why even bother being in spider form at all? I either have to tailor my spells to not have any somatic components or just accept that I'm another ancestry for a huge chunk of time. I can't use magic items that aren't worn, and I can't even pass out potions or anything!

Moving past the cost-benefit analysis of the gameplay of this ability, it also presents I think one of the only real flavor-function dissonance moments of the book.

The other reason I chose Craft and Casting somatic Spells in particular is because of the lore implications. Not only were Anadi implied to have great scholars and spell casters, they can only Change Shape because those great minds came together and *created the magic to assume humanoid form* and passed it down through generations - a magic that is specifically mentioned to be a mixture of Illusion and Transmutation, two schools full to the brim of somatic spells! Am I to believe that they simply lost the ability to cast spells while in spider form after they learned how to Change Shape? Maybe, I guess, but it seems fudgy.

Not to mention the image used on that *exact same page* is art referencing the beautiful Peacock Spider. If you've never seen one, then I urge you to - the dances that they perform are nothing short of beautiful. And, I might add, notably complex! For raising two of their seemingly-simple stick limbs and fluttering their plumage about, it's more than what you might expect. If that's the art that you're going to use, then don't you think that an Anadi could potentially think to use two of its limbs in a similar way, but instead to wave around in complex patterns for spellcasting? I sure do!

Even more, you know what that spider is holding (YES, HOLDING)? A blanket! A blanket that one could easily assume that they crafted with their silk! As their Society block states, they're a simple people that do things like farm mushrooms or *weave blankets*. Which... wait, they can't do that unless they're in their humanoid form. You're telling me that native Anadi villages often times aren't full of spider-form Anadi, but human-form Anadi? That seems a bit odd, since they only have that form to make themselves look more amicable for other cultures for trade!

And the salt on the wound? They included the NPC stat blocks for the Anadi Hunter, Sage, and Elder in the book, too - the ones from Age of Ashes: Hellknight Hill according to Archives of Nethys. And they're unchanged from those books.
The Change Shape from *those* stat blocks indicates that Anadi in their spider form can't use... weapons. That's it. Just can't use weapons. Yes, even the level 2-equivalent Anadi Hunter who can't take Hybrid Form yet (even though it wouldn't change what they can or can't do in their spider form regardless and they still have hybrid form because NPC levels aren't real).

I just - really? Either this was a major oversight, or somebody was just waaaay too overzealous to balance a 1d6 fang attack even at the cost of both flavor and fun. Even so, so what if it 'doesn't make sense' if my Anadi can hold a glass bottle - isn't it more fun to come up with a way to roleplay that sort of thing with a table?

I dunno, I'm definitely taking this a bit far with all this text, but at least this was my thought process when trying to mentally process this bit of info in one of the book's creative ancestries - the most adorable, in my opinion. If there's any other people wanting to discuss this, then that'd be great! This would definitely be something I'd have to change with a GM, but others aren't me, so it'd be interesting if others had differing opinions. And either way, discussion probably drives the chance of someone at Paizo looking at this up, which is cool too.

Throwing aside discussion of Hexes and patrons and traditions for a second, let's talk about one of the other things that sets a Witch apart from other casters: their reliance on the cute little beasts as their textbook and spellbooks.

Specifically, about how the only thing that makes a Witch familiar better than others being the extra F/M abilities you get.

Personally, I think since your little buddy has the frankly severe drawback of being a separate, targetable creature that is also your spell conduit there should be some other pieces in place to make sure they're not instantly dead if caught in an AoE or something.
I know they get Damage Avoidance as a familiar ability and Lifelink as a master ability, but ALL familiars only have 5 HP per master's level. These two skills are still risky at best, one depending on making saves (and doing nothing against regular attacks) and the other putting your own life at risk.
Since you get the immediate penalty of losing non-lesson spells until next prep (and even then not gaining most of them back until the end of the week), do you all think we should get better protections for our boys?
What are your ideas? I do wanna hear what others feel on the subject a lot, since I think this is a pretty important point - after all, I don't wanna have a familiar that has to stay cooped up in a box for fear of them dying from a gust of wind.