Belefauntes's page

Hey guy,

We've got a "swashbuckler" oriented game coming up, and I'm looking to build a decent caster. I'd like him to be able to be decent with a sword, but as a backup (definitely not a primary ability). My core concepts, at this point:

Tiefling race: This is what it is, and I'm not changing it. There's a backstory to this, so there you have it.

Battlefield mobility: The idea of teleporting around the battlefield is a strong focus of my concept.

Arcanist class: I really like this class. A LOT! Most of the versatility of a wizard, without the drawback of having to memorize every single spell slot. Some of the exploits (like Dimensional Slide) are awesome perks, some of which play right into my core concept.

Options considered:

Swashbuckler class dip (1 level): 1d10 hp, +1 BAB, +2 Reflex, Simple and Martial Weapon proficiencies, Weapon Finesse (what mage doesn't favor Dex over Str?), Panache and a couple of deeds. Seems a strong way to get a little sword flair, but costs me 1 CL, and puts me 2 spell level progressions behind a Wizard of the same character level.

- Inspired Blade archetype: Add INT modifier to Panache pool, and gain Weapon Focus (Rapier). A strong option for an already INT-based character, and easier access to Fencing Grace (Dex to damage AND +2 CMD vs Disarm).

- Mysterious Avenger archetype: An extra class skill (Disguise), proficiency with Whip, and use Whip with Weapon Finesse. Not as strong of an option as Inspired Blade, but a fun alternative. With the right feats, I could be disarming/tripping foes from 15 feet away.

- Fencing Grace OR Slashing Grace feat: Dex to damage with a rapier OR light or one-handed weapon. Small bonuses with Fencing Grace if I have a Panache pool.

Arcanist Specific Options:

Dimensional Slide exploit: This is a no-brainer for my concept. Move action teleportation for 10 feet/arcanist level, and still cast a spell or get an attack. Could (theoretically) be used in conjunction with Dimensional Steps and/or Slide (Teleportation school abilities), or with any other spell and Slide.

- School Savant Archetype: Specialize in the aforementioned Teleportation School for some Nightcrawler-esque shenanigans.

- School Understanding (Teleportation): Alternate option to School Savant archetype. Not as cool, as any effective Slide will cost an Arcane Reservoir point, but only costs one Exploit instead of 3, and gives me earlier access to the Extra Exploit feat.

-- Dimensional Agility feat chain: See the previous Nightcrawler statement.

- Blade Adept archetype: Get a cool Black Blade (rapier) and access to some Magus abilities at the cost of 3 exploits. I'm not sure if this is a good option or not, as "fencing" is intended to be an occasional thing, rather than a staple of my build. Doesn't stack with School Savant, so School Understanding (Teleportation) would become a necessity to my concept.

- Magus VMC: The variant multiclass bonuses gained from the Magus give me access to an actual Arcane Pool, potentially ALL Magus Arcana, and Spellstrike. The cost of (potentially) 5 feats over the course of my career, however, makes this option iffy, as swordplay is intended to be a secondary option.

- Eldritch Knight: 1d10 hp/level, full BAB, strong Fort saves, bonus combat feats, and 9/10 CL increase. This option makes swordplay a legitimate option. The downfall is losing yet another level of caster level and spell progression.

Other things to know:

- The game starts at 4th level, so Archetypes that lose level 1 and 3 exploits aren't going to hurt as much. I can pick up an exploit (and take the Extra Exploit feat) at level 5... UNLESS, I dip a level in Swash, then I would have to wait til 6 for the class feature and 7 for the feat.

- Rapier is my melee weapon of choice. Melee damage is not really my focus, rather I'm more interested in flair... combat maneuvers such as dirty trick, disarm, and trip.

- I'm really, REALLY interested in the shenanigans I could pull with the Dimensional Agility feat chain.

I also have a related question: the Dimensional Slide exploit does not call out any restrictions on teleportation in regards to teleporting creatures/allies WITH the arcanist. Can an arcanist Dimensional Slide with an ally or enemy? If no, is there a source on this information?

Thanks in advance for any help/advice!

The only restrictions she's really imposing on my ultimate master of beyond the grave is the pool limit. That is to say, I couldn't dip divine/arcane to get two pools, and all device-created/controlled undead are their own collaborative pool. So, I can have one pool of animated undead via spellcasting, one via items I employ, one via my evil minions' spellcasting, and one via any items they employ.

Just going off of a single cohort spellcaster, that's a potential of 4 pools of Animate Dead!

Also, any item-based spell is based upon it's creator, not the character. So, if a Wand of Animate Dead were created by a level 10 Juju Oracle, that's 60 HD worth of undead (more if they had applicable feats and/or traits to boost their effective CL with Animate Dead), no matter who utilizes the wand!

Utilizing my skills as an experience Netromancer, I cast Animate Thread!

So, I'm building a necromancer-type. I know that if you want to be a true master of hordes of undead, the Juju Oracle is the optimal choice (or this seems to be the popular choice). I, however, don't care for the flavor of the Oracle class, and it doesn't fit my vision for my character. Here is what I'm starting with:

Class: Arcanist
Race: Vetala-born Dhampir
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Alternate Race Traits: Heir to Undying Nobility, Vampiric Empathy.
Prestige Class Goal: Agent of the Grave

(I chose those alt race traits because I like them, not for any optimization or such. Flavor. I like characters who have character.)

The characters in this game all start at level 1, but it expected to run to level 20. As such, I'm working on a 20 level build, with per-level advancement suggestions.

So, I realize that for my first 5 to 7 levels (before I gain access to the Animate Dead spell and its Lesser variant) I will mostly be functioning as a standard sorcerer/wizard type. However, it's never to early to get the ball rolling, so I'm starting at level 1 toward building my Corpse Commander. Aside from the above, here's what I'm going with:

We use random dice rolls for stats, and mine turned out very good. After racial modifiers:
Str 9, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 17

At level 1, I chose the Quick Study Arcanist Exploit, and Spell Focus (necromancy) feat. The levels leading up to gaining access to Animate Dead are the most crucial. I'm working toward this combination of feats and exploits:

Feats - 3) Improved Familiar (to gain a Beheaded familiar... for effect, mostly), 5) Undead Master, 7) Spell Specialization (Animate Dead).

Exploits - 3) Familiar, 5) School Understanding (Necromancy -> Undead), and 7) Potent Magic.

The combination of these feats, exploits, and the aforementioned traits will grant me (using our liberal interpretation of the rules) a total +10 ECL with Animate Dead (using Potent Magic), allowing me to control 72 HD worth of undead via Animate Dead at level 8, when I gain access to the spell. We use the logical RAI interpretation of Undead Master, so it boosts the character's effective level with the Command Undead feat by +4, as well, allowing up to 12 HD to be controlled at level 8 via that feat. We also interpret the Command Undead feat RAI to function as the Command Undead spell. Therefore, any applicable boosts I get to the spell, also apply to feats and abilities which manifest as said spell.

-----

I'm essentially looking for advice for building the best necromancer I can with the Arcanist/Agent of the Grave class combo from level 9 up. I plan to grab Craft Wand (either via feat or exploit) so I can craft my own overpowered Wand of Animate Dead (at my ECL). Don't know if this fits RAW or not, but we permit effects manifested through devices to function independently of (and thus, in addition to) effects manifested through the character's spells and abilities.

Advice on how I can make this budding necromancer into the world dominating Emperor of Carrion Commandos? Liberal interpretations of RAI are accepted!

Thanks for the tips! I don't plan to thwart EVERY effort to discern the undead nature of the vampires... If my players are very clever and/or persistent, they should be able to eventually uncover the truth. To do otherwise would be, in my opinion, the sign of a bad GM. The equivalent to metagaming on the part of the game master.

All the tricks, magical or otherwise, I want to pull to blind the players from the truth should be things which a reasonable amount of research on the part of centuries old vampires should be able to reveal, while remaining in the realm of reasonably cost efficient and accessible. For this reason, anything which could LEGALLY be made into a potion (3rd level magic and lower) fit neatly into this category. While Daywalker is a nice spell, it might be reserved for only the upper echelons of this vampire society, as it exceeds my guidelines.

I'm trying to follow this rule with any modifications I make to the adventure -- not doing anything against the PCs which I wouldn't allow them to do themselves. The idea of using a whip, for example, (with all the applicable feats) to "grab" an enemy, and then use the movement of a flying mount to drop their would-be enemy from an extreme height may be bending the rules a bit, but if a player presented it to me, I'd let them do it on the grounds of: A. Creativity/"The Rule of Cool" factor. And B. It's not a far stretch to allow this with a whip, when I could easily see a mounted cowboy dragging a person with a lasso. The "rules" regarding this are vague to non-existent, only siting the rule for moving a grappled enemy using your own movement power. There seem to be no governing rules regarding doing this with the assistance of a powerful mount. For this reason, I'm switching the Dullahan's weapon from a flail to a whip, replacing many of its feats to accommodate the tactic, and using the Nightmare to fly his victims up into the air.

I've decided to take my own spin/approach to this chapter in the adventure path. The vampires of Caliphas are a secretive society who, ahem, masquerade as regular folk. They cling to this secret in order to maintain the symbiotic relationship with the living which they've managed to uphold for centuries. As such, the players are not going to be made immediately aware of the fact they are working with vampires. Instead, I'm going to approach this as "There is a serial killer at large who is targeting influential members of the Caliphas aristocracy. They possess valuable information as to the whereabouts of the Whispering Way cult leaders, and will happily share that information with the party... but only after they track down the killer." The "unlikely ally" is going to be less obvious and play a more subtle role. The Esoteric Order is going to be far less knowledgeable as to the presence of the vampires. Generally, I'm tweaking the adventure to actually be a horror mystery, rather than shoving a bunch of cattle prods up the players' posteriors.

My group is currently playing the Carrion Crown adventure path. We're running this path on a rotating GM setup. We have a fairly large group (8 members, total), and each member has a character (8 PCs). Each chapter in the path is run by a different member of the group. Two of our players are very green, so they are not running any of the chapters. We doled out the chapters based on the individual players' levels of experience with the gaming and the d20 system. I am the most experience player, so I chose one of the final chapters. I love vampires, so it was sheer luck that I managed to randomly choose (between 5 and 6) the chapter dedicated to them! (Yay me!)

Some of the less experienced players have been a bit Monty Hall-ish in the loot department, so this is going to make my job a bit more difficult, but I'm a good GM and can accommodate.

As I've just read through most of the Ashes at Dawn chapter, I wanted to give a few of my pre-play impressions.

1) The Masquerade: So, I know this isn't White Wolf's "Vampire: The Masquerade", and that's fine. HOWEVER... I have a huge gripe with the approach to getting the PCs involved. These vampires have been around for CENTURIES, and have learned to keep their existence hidden from the public, managing to form a sort of secret symbiosis with the living. The vast majority of the people of Caliphas are supposed to be oblivious to the presence of the vampires, or at least that's the impression I got. So, the way the adventure plays out, the PCs are basically told there are vampires all over, they are being killed, and here's where they hang out. WHAT THE HECK!? To make that worse, when the PCs meet the vampires, these creatures of the night basically come out and say "Hey! We're vampires! We prey on the living and our people are being killed. Help a brutha out!?" They make absolutely NO attempt to hide their nature and manipulate the PCs into helping them. How about "Someone has been preying upon the most influential of the noble houses here in Caliphas. We have heard you're looking for this Whispering Way. We may have some information for you, if you'd help us track down the killer and bring them to justice."? Throw in a little (subtle) vampire domination and the PCs are basically oblivious to the fact they are helping vampires... at least for a time. Eventually yes, the PCs should (if they're not entirely oblivious morons) eventually figure out they're helping vampires, and then be struck with the moral dilemma. The vampires should be trying to keep their secret hidden!

2) The Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye: Here again, we have a secret society of folk who (kinda) know what's really going on. First off... SECRET society. They don't make their presence well known, but the PCs should have NO trouble finding them!? WHAT THE HECK!? Do these adventure paths assume the players are idiots and can't figure stuff out? I digress. Secondly, they know WAY TOO MUCH! Sure, they're an educated organization, similar to the likes of the Freemasons, but they're also primarily composed of diplomatic types who seem to spend most of their time socializing and/or pouring over ancient tomes and artifacts. They are NOT adventurers. It would make more sense (to me) for them to be aware of the presence of SOME vampires; possibly even correlating the recent string of murders to vampires (though I think it would be more interesting if they had not made that correlation); and they may even know that Restoration Park is a "somewhat common hunting ground for these creatures of the night". It's my opinion, they know way too much and it's too easy for the PCs to garner this knowledge from them.

3) An Unlikely Ally: Quinley Basdel is A) an unnecessary character whose only purpose seems to be functioning as a cattle prod to push only the dimmest or laziest of heroes/players in the right direction, and B) far too obvious! This guy is a Dhampir who totally looks like an evil vampire! He's been a member of the vampire society for years, understands the politics and secrecy involved, and is just giving it up like a drunken tramp to anyone who MIGHT show some potential as an ally for tracking down his mother's killer. COME ON! If your players still need you to hold their hand at this point, you haven't been playing the Adventure Path right! I'm deleting this character from this chapter of the game, or at least making him a more subtle source of information. This is almost as bad as setting up an encounter which can only be defeated, in a cinematic but anti-climactic manner, by a beast the heroes have been tasked to defend! (Yes, I hated that portion of that chapter of this AP.)

Summary: This entire Adventure Path is supposed to be about mystery, intrigue, and suspense, with the added bonus of being set in a Gothic Horror-style setting. Where is the mystery, intrigue, and suspense when you just hand them everything they need to learn on a silver platter, with a complimentary helping of everything they will need to stomp all over the villains!? If your players are so dim and lazy they can't do a little footwork to learn things on their own, especially when they are this close to the end, quite frankly they will deserve it when you wipe their party out. Aside from the fact that I will need to alter the difficulties of EVERY encounter in this chapter because my party is both very player heavy AND very heavily equipped, if I want this to feel like an actual freakin' murder mystery with a dark twist, I'm going to have to modify pretty much every facet of this adventure, including: presentation, dialogue, pace, encounter dynamics... etc. Virtually no stone can go unturned if I want this to actually be interesting and challenging.

Am I alone in my feelings here?

. . . . .

What I DO like:

Alright. Ranting aside, I do like the core concept of this module: Vampires hate the Whispering Way. Vampires are being systematically and selectively slain by a supporter of the Way. Vampires have information as to the whereabouts of the Way. Vampires need the help of the PCs in order to track down the killer. Vampires will give the PCs the information they possess if the PCs help the vampires. I even like the basic ideas of the Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye, and how the Order knows things to which the general populace is oblivious, and how they will help the PCs in order to further their own objective. And how one of the locals has a personal grudge against the killer for having slain his mother, and is willing to assist the PCs to his own end, as well.

All the elements are here for a suspense-filled romp through the dark and dangerous underbelly of a creepy Dracula/Ravenloft-esque city. The PCs are met by an undead agent of the cult which they've been hunting. As he's tied to the cult, he has no direct correlation with the Vampires of Caliphas, so there is yet no reason to even associate this city with said night stalkers. The PCs awaken the next morning to the cries of murder, at which point they are advised there is a serial killer on the loose and, like Mystery Inc., are likely to step up to the challenge of tracking them down. In order to do this, they must track down clues which will gain the attention of a small sect of a secretive society residing here in Caliphas, as well as that of a dark stranger with a personal vendetta. A few more clues will lead the PCs to a well kept park where they can find more clues as to strange happenings which, at first glance, seem to have no correlation with the investigation at hand. Poking around a bit, and maybe garnering a few more rumors and clues, the PCs will either stumble upon OR be directed to a secret, exclusive, underground club for only the most elite and long-standing aristocratic and noble families of the city. Managing to earn the trust of these upper class folk, or otherwise working their way in, the PCs hear a few conspiratorial theories regarding the targets of these serial killings. Some hobnobbing with the eccentric club members will reveal they know a bit about the whereabouts of the evil cult, and they would be willing to part with that information if the PCs can bring to justice this vicious killer.

At what point did the PCs have to be told "Hey! We're vampires, by the way!" They can figure that out on their own (or not figure it out) at any point during their investigation.

When the PCs finally track down the killer, he's a vicious, malevolent vampire who (at this point, maybe villainous monologue?) must eliminate the highest ranking among his nocturnal peers in order to minimize resistance when the Whispering Tyrant is resurrected, AND ensure his own position as head of the Caliphas vampires AND among the followers of the Tyrant.

I like the core elements of this adventure path and, in particular, this chapter within. Unfortunately, I feel there isn't enough mystery, and the mystery that is present is about subtle facts that go unrevealed for so long, eventually the players will forget about them or no longer even care. All of the subtle backstory from the previous four chapters of this Adventure Path become available in this chapter (via the Esoteric Order), but why should the players even care about them at this point?

I know I sound like a hater, but I actually like this Adventure Path. I just feel the writers could have done a LOT BETTER at: playing up the mystery, intrigue, and suspense elements of each chapter; doling out the secrets contained within each chapter as said chapters unfolded; using both of these factors to better draw the players into the conspiracies and dark machinations of the evil cult, The Whispering Way.

Advice:

For anyone looking to run this Adventure Path, I recommend doing a LOT of work beforehand. Read through the ENTIRE SERIES before running it (maybe a couple of times), make a LOT of footnotes, be prepared to alter much of the presentation, dialogue, and encounters, and try to filter in more of the important background information as it is presented in the module, rather than FIVE CHAPTERS IN when nobody will give a crap about it anymore.

You can already do that. Even if you are a finessee fighter, you can still choose to use your strength to make a trip. Then you're adding your (strength + dex)

So if I'm a fighter with greater trip, Str 14 and Dex 20, and I take Fury's Fall, I will use my str for the trip and add dex (choosing to ignore the Weapon Finessee feat for a bit), and trip them. When I trip them, I can weapon finessee on the AOO I get from Greater trip to do some damage.

I'm not arguing this. The point was that the text in the benefit could be (and has been by many, based on my research) interpreted to allow a double-Dex-dip if used in conjunction with Weapon Finesse/Agile Maneuvers. (I am aware there is an official ruling on that, but it took a lot more research to find that.)

Your interpretation actually confuses matters; since it might read finessee fighters can replace str and do (Dex + Dex). So my trip fighter/monk in PFS might take this, and despite having a 7 str and 26 dex, do (Dex + Dex) to trip. That would be amazing... too amazing. That's the reason the "double dipping" rule is there to prevent this.

My initial interpretation of this feat as written is EXACTLY why I suggested an errata for it. I was confused. After much, much, MUCH research, I discovered that my original interpretation of the feat was inaccurate. I sought to shore up confusion by suggesting clarification. Perhaps my edited version only needed the first sentence, but I sought to make sure there was no way to misinterpret the feat, so I added in the bits about Weapon Finesse and Agile maneuvers.

As to the Wisdom, Guided isn't legal in PFS or most of Pathfinder, but Sensei is. Sensei lets you substitute Wisdom for Strength on CMB (as well as attack and damage for unarmed strikes/monk weapons). A Fury's fall sensei would be able to replace Strength, then add dex (by the current wording but NOT by your changed wording). So by the current wording, the sensei (and the Guided weapon) would use (Wisdom + Dex) to determine the trip.

I don't play Pathfinder Society, so I couldn't really care less what they allow, only what my GM allows. I ran the enchantment by my GM and he said he'd allow it. Like myself, he doesn't see why there shouldn't be feats to allow players to use their DEX or INT or WIS or CHA as their primary attack stat... say one feat for attack bonuses, a second for damage bonuses (both as replacers). There are those who would argue "But... but... but that's ALL that STR does! *boohoo*" To that, I suggested implementing feats that allow the use of STR on Reflex Saves (call this one "Brutal Defense") and on with certain skills (call this one "Muscular Coordination") in place of DEX. There are other ways that feats could be implemented to make STR more valuable, and implementing ATT/DMG replacers doesn't bypass certain feat requirements (like Power Attack).

I digress.

So, I would guess that a Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists would allow my WIS-based monk to use WIS+DEX with Fury's Fall rather than STR+DEX. Does that sound right?

@ KainPen: Hey, maybe it won't get errata'd, maybe it will. I just throw the suggestion out there, hope for support on the matter, and see what happens. ;)

@ Chris Lambertz: Thanks for merging the threads... I didn't know how to just delete the one that was in the wrong place. :P

@ Majuba: The fact that they have done it at least ONE time sets a precedent for possibility. Am I right? LOL!