AvenaOats's page

A: When we first starting to think about making Pathfinder Online, Paizo hired Ryan to create a design document that would be used as a template for making the game. The Paizo team approved that document and that has been used as the marching orders for the team ever since. That won’t change now that Ryan is not with the company.

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Yes, I do about 90%. I think if you want a reason why the game did not make it as hoped, the 10% is the reason and that's as it is with all things at the cutting edge, fine margins in sports, wars, inventions etc.

A great great deal of this work was good and better than good, imo.

However the first big problem was from day 1 the lack of reconciliation between two essential but disparate markets:-

1. Paizo TT market
2. MMORPG PvP market

I never understood the writing off of 1. even if the idea of sandbox required PvP which I fully understand.

The second big mistake was the WOW ENGINE converting the design into the actual ENGINE, it turned it into something not fresh as well as ensuring the budget was x10 larger than necessarily and the tech problems x10 more challenging as a function of spreading the game design so thin. This realization was where it seemed to me the real strength in Ryan's design was never actually going to be realized at the pace of development using such an engine to represent PFO.

Given it won't change now, the assets and code have a market value potentially to publishers that could be valued investments, so that makes sense.

However if the Pathfinder IP is to become a digital social online game, I'm going to write up a game design doc that more or less takes a lot of Ryan's design but wrap it up in a new form. In fact the more I've thought of this new form the less and less it resembles the MMORPG form at all... but building off a young current genre elsewhere entirely with online elements very similar to mmo-.

The exercise here is simply to advance the online social gaming possibilities.

Enough waffle "i know best" from me, until next that is. The main thing is to provide my sincere if flawed feedback and to wish the Paizo/GW crew the best and thanks for their efforts.

https://goblinworks.com/blog/lisas-community-address/

may be gaps in the url.

rom the beginning of the three year journey to create Pathfinder Online, the one constant has been the support of our community and for this I thank you. We have had ups and downs including heated debates on design, implementation and overall gameplay. We have literally battled together (or against each other) and I know you enjoy playing the game as much as I do. I also know that the community comes together during tough times, and it is probably no surprise that we are currently in a tough spot right now. There are a number of things that have occurred in the past two weeks that you need to be brought up to date on.

As we have been on this journey to create Pathfinder Online with you for over three years now, we have striven to be as transparent as possible with you. We just shared the following message with the community during our weekly Keepside Chat. In full transparency, here is a quick run down of the state of our game:

EE10.2 is on ZOG for final testing and should roll out to live on Thursday or Friday morning.

EE11 is targeted for the end of September

Ryan Dancey has had to resign from the company for personal reasons (Lisa Stevens will be acting CEO)

Finances are tight at Goblinworks, which has resulted in the layoff of the majority of Goblinworks staff

CTO Mark Kalmes, Art Director Mike Hines, and Designer Bob Settles continue to push the game forward (your monthly subscriptions are what keep these three employed and the server up)

Goblinworks is in talks with multiple game publishers to take the game on and bring it to Open Enrollment

I know that is a lot to take in, so I will share what details we can below:

Here's the first on a few blogs on mmorpgs I plan on doing. This one is mostly "background reading" to set the scene for the more pertinent and applicable blogs that will look at what can be done to make mmorpgs more successful "social interaction story-generators". Which I think is what PFO's "Meaningful Human Interaction" is ultimately all about, albeit via different means. Hopefully the comparison (in time) will be useful to both Goblinworks, mmorpg developers and players.

MMORPG Fantasy: Stories And The Quest For The Holy Grail

A Confusion of Campaigns 1: A Review of Games Literature

So, was it a failure?

Well yes, of course. And also, no. It depends how you ask the question

Galaxies actually had the best one-month conversion of any game at SOE, by a double-digit percentage.

SWG also had the shortest play session lengths of any RPG at SOE (action games, including Planetside, had shorter). This had very much been a design goal

However, at the same time, it also had the highest total hours played per week. In other words, it was the least grindy per session, and the most sticky on a week or month basis.

SWG did not sell a million units instantly, and then lose them all, as many claim. It took two years for it to hit a number that big (unlike WoW, which shot up incredibly fast). Early reviews and launch buzz were mixed at best. That said, it was picking up more new users a day than all other SOE games combined, even after the CU. It did have a churn problem, and exit surveys showed all the top answers for why people left were “lack of content.” This was largely attributable to things like the combat balance, the lack of quests, and so on.

WoW didn’t kill SWG. In fact, SWG lost less users to WoW than any other SOE game. (This makes sense — it was the least like WoW, after all).

Lastly, SWG was a lot cheaper to make than what was about to be its competition. Like, 1/4 of the budget or less of a WoW.

In short…

The game wasn’t doing as badly as people seem to think. It didn’t fail in the market. It did just fine, even by the standards pre-WoW. But there were huge expectations that we didn’t push against, it launched with serious problems, and the team wasn’t really equipped to fix them. This resulted in a series of errors that damaged the game’s ongoing viability, which resulted in more hurried changes.

The analytics stuff is interesting.

The expectations at the end is the most illuminating thing. The vision and how that informed EVERYTHING and where the devs strayed from that vision the problems came.

Reasons for selling:-

• Need currency for a couple of donations to not-for-profit causes; quickly.
  
• Some cash needs to be used to settle RL concerns, additionally
  
• Currently not running supported system for PFO
  
• Very happy with the value I've gained from the account and gaming opportunities it presents but the above are all very pressing matters in other areas
  
• As per my recent thread: "Fantasy & The MMORPG Scale" philosophically I'm more interested in perma-death characters not as a singular feature but as at the heart of story-creation, game-design and business pricing model, than the current realization.

Interested buyers information:-

A. Account Details Summary:-

* Reward.....................Quantity
* New Player Pack...............1
* Destinys Twin.................1
* Daily Deals...................1
* Early Enrollment..............1
* Soundtrack Download...........1
* 1 Month game time.............7
* Alliance Pack.................1
* Head Start....................1
* Shield Mate...................1
* Behind the Scenes PDF.........1
* Character Name Reservation....1
* Twice-Marked of Pharasma......1

B. Procedure of Transaction:-

1. Please bid a price according to going market value (as observed in the forums and elsewhere) via PM. I'm honest I'm not out to make a killing; simple exchange is fine, but I'll let market demand dictate the price.
2. Considering the subsequent interested parties; I'll consider a direct exchange or a third party handler, further to transactions. I'd be happy to facilitate transactions via PayPal (as this is intended use for above not-for-profit organizations I intend to donate too).
3. Please feel free to ask questions; I'm quite active on the forums and intend to continue doing so and hence hope that demonstrates an adequate degree of reliability in any monetary matters of notable value.

1. Business model explanation
2. Screenshots
3. Clear, unfettered news feeds
4. Basic guides to game mechanics
5. On-site account management
6. Sensibly arranged forums
7. Search tools
8. Moderated use of visual flair
9. Links to useful external resources
10. Download links that aren’t obtrusive

Seems like a useful article or subject pointer.

I've stolen that title from an expert (it references George RR Martin's titles style series from A Game Of Thrones).

I will try and fail to keep this short and pithy.

(1) EQ/WOW Engine => Graphics demand ==> Complex Combat

EQ/WOW Engine => Graphics demand ==> Complex Combat demand for gameplay interaction/controls by the player.

INSIGHT Trend towards ACTION in-built into this engine away from DECISION.

(2) Decision-making vs Action Gameplay

EVE Space => graphics incidental to information => DECISION-MAKING gameplay expected by the player ie it markets this itself (expectation-setting/signaling)

INSIGHT This is a stronger fit for story generation in games

(3) Future Projections of Games Market

Star Citizen in space and using FPS perspective engine fits the action trend of MMO-ification of EQ/WOW engine trend. My young newphews are cock-a-hoop over spaceships and... Minecraft. Other kids like Clash of Clans. One involves major creativity and social space and the other is built on social dynamics to hook players into spending to keep up with peers. Both raised millions. SOCIAL + CREATIVITY (either assets or story or both).

(4) Simulation Space -> Story Generation -> Online Community

[B](5) Evidence PFO is failing at this test: Action > Decision-Making

EE, youtube, comments in forums (see previous posts). Why? Imho, Ryan has taken the assumption that: EQ/WOW model built to bring that market in THEN add sandbox around that gameplay. However what's observable in EE is the bloat of graphics demand by mmorpg players and then the combat because of the graphics. THEN we might see the design doc (summary here). This has created a loss of focus and fallen into the Themepark Trap and loss of parsimony to create a system to create a story for a community online.

(6) Nature Of Solutions

if deducted rigorously have a habit of deriving natural products that synergize with the full vision - almost magically. The solution to extend Ryan's MMORPG Business Development Model imho is via Parsimony which derives graphics constraints in service of story. This leads to cheaper dev (as Ryan knows) and the way to re-do the Engine is SCALE change towards RTS which fits hundreds of agents interacting simultaneously on a screen better than the EQ/WOW model does think EVE and dots in combat of thousands. This aligns with philosophy of Bartle and Shokrizade

(7) Changing Direction: Decisions, Simulations, Story & Scale

From now on I'm going to assume (rightly or wrongly) PFO in present EE is going to fail due to the above reasoning, projection/expectation of trends and present evidence of the EQ/WOW engine demands. As said EE/alpha/beta has disproportionate bearing on future shape of game.

(8) We see with SC Hybridization trend will lead to innovation

of MMO via instances via FPS shooter + Space Flight Sim + MMO-ification (persistent economy, space = better graphics). Apply the same to Fantasy and RTS SCALE engine eg (0AD, Kingdoms 2, Total War Arenas etc). This fits PFO's design:-

* Exploration = HUGE WORLD (ie scale)
* Development = Settlements, buildings, territory, resource gathering, social simulation
* Domination = RTS Battles scale formations and tactics

The Scale is already intrinsic, and it would aid the networking as well as reduce the graphics overhead where staff salary is 80% and the combat overhead and apallingly high standards required for TT EQ/WOW combat. It means broader systems being built all at once even if shallow as per EVE's history of development. Avoiding the current EE trap PFO is experiencing.

(9) Capturing All The Markets That Fit This Focus

This aligns with what the customers who invested in PFO already have stated they want, there's a challenge of markets: The Once and Future Game: "Theatre of the Mind" or Crunchy System?. Ryan's identified another divide in the market: PvP vs Life Sim sandbox emphasis. The other market divide as per theatre vs crunchy explicitly = Pathfinder TT market vs MMO market. Here SCALE works to derive the solution naturally again:-

* Adventure module:-

It's important to get this right to merge the origins of PF with the digital incarnation for good publicity and good design. Here I suggest you keep the class system of PF TT and predominantly for this aspect of the game to build after the other 3 above. It needs to be on the RTS Scale and the combat can be elaborated for parties here in dungeons using Torchbearer style rules. Probably keep these chars immune from PvP in the Open World. It fits Ryan's vision of bringing these adventureres into a living world context. The other careers expanding eg merchant, soldier, diplomat they are part of the above pillars. I'm running out of space... but the design needs to create a system that is OGL inspired create your own dungeons/modules for the game world and adventurers. One day integrate this more with other pillars. You resolve the PF TT market in this. It also provides more dynamic dungeons than any MMORPG to date. The game within the game concept is powerful.

(10) Family Avatar Scale Derived (pricing, skill-training, story, gameplay, simulation)

The coupe de grace: Again deriving from this naturally at the heart of PFO's business model is the assumption of stored value in the game via skill-training x1 char as per EVE. The innovation that derives is FAMILY system of alt avatars of mortality cycles and births. Size of family is sub option with marginal plex economic discount system: It matches Players who spend more, need to play more, will influence the game world more, could open up higher levels of character development more. Value invested can be recycled via generation cycles, violent chars die sooner, eg wars, value is locked into family holdings and also via feudal loyalty systems between families and marriages to balance influence of connections. Limited skill-training per character, though as above any skill-training dependent on family size and opportunity. This I think simulates the social simulation of chars/sim life as well as political foundations for the meta-story of groups. It also naturally regulates ratio of male-female; cross-breeding perhaps, proportion of experienced vet chars in the game to newbies needing training up next cohorts, violent players as mentioned, allows players to manage their alts more naturally, not put all eggs in one basket of one char, end of stories allows players to write up their chars life stories - some supernatural stunts could be conceived, time travel too and so on... temples/religion has a stronger place and much more derived.

[B]TL;DR: But I think with all the above the sub price, the investing of players to influence the game world, the social systems focus, the creation of broad many systems interacting and visually available faster and away from gameplay components that are boring, stressful or alienate certain markets... SCALE I believe resolves these things and improves the business model, the game design implementation, focuses on the right market and avoids competition with the trend of the market.

What makes a game last a generation?

Problems that aren’t actually solvable. Instead, players can only approach optimality. This means there’s always another hill to climb in terms of increasing skill, so people keep devoting the time.

These tend to be problems that fall into high complexity classes. In general, NP-HARD problems that we solve using heuristics make for long-lasting games. Mind you, these problems need to be intrinsic to the core game loop.

No end in sight for problem variations. New problems using the same ruleset is also a way to give hills to climb. (Yeah, this means that “authored” games with fixed levels are almost certainly not going to endure in quite the same way. A narrative game is very unlikely to last a generation.)

The typical ways of providing apparently endless content are:

Quote:

• a decently large permutation space. We have an enormous ability to prune possibility space in our mental models. Tic-Tac-Toe is small enough we solve it pretty readily. In contrast, there are a lot of possible games of go.
  
• a human opponent. Humans add in a whole new set of problems that are also inherently hard, problems of psychology and status.
  
• procedurality in problem set generation. Every game of Tetris is different. The weather adds random elements to every sporting event. And so on.

Independence from representation. Games that endure a generation or more are ones that are susceptible to the folk process, that embrace the idea of being co-opted by their players.

Ryan Described this very well here in this interview:

The core game loop

To make our MVP, we had to figure out what the smallest number of features were needed to implement a compelling game loop with meaningful human interactions. We decided that our loop would have two interconnected segments.

• Segment one would be finding monsters in the world, killing them, and taking their stuff.

• Segment two would be finding resources, harvesting those resources, and turning the resources into crafted goods.

• The interconnection would be that the stuff one character crafted would make another character better at killing monsters.

We also accepted that there would be a complication of this interconnection:

• Killing another character and taking its stuff would be a shortcut.

We have a grand plan for where our game will eventually take us that involves vast territorial battles for control of the map, fought by huge organizations of players collectively working together for common purpose. We imagine a time when players can build characters that are experts in a wide range of careers from soldier to diplomat to teamster to spy and hundreds more. But for the purposes of our MVP, we think we can be viable with the game loop described above. Everything else can (and will) come later.

I'm guessing the basic gameplay "feel" is the key as is the core combat and how fun that is. Then how those are a part of the above game loop successfully.

All comments appreciated. I'm probably going to hold off hopping into EE on day 1 (moving around and getting a new graphics card etc) but also will jump in when I think the above is up to standard.

Please provide your feedback modelled on the above or in a more relevant way?

Thanks.

"The Shadow of the Beast" (working title)

Nation: Any
Settlement: Any
Alignments: Any (let me check my Grimoire: "Lycaonites can be of any alignment, though most tend towards chaotic and evil alignments, as their inner beast drives them into darkness.")
Player Roles Accepted: Any
Gaming Membership Status: Must be interested in crowdforging Lycanthropes for implementation and potentially motivated enough to chipping in a monthly donation towards this endeavour (tbd).
Application: TBD - I'll get something up and running for this which will be of interest to potential members and the curious alike.
Useful Reference material: A Necromancer’s Grimoire: Märchen der
Dæmonwulf by Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Hollowa

[Nihimonicon note: It may be something of a fatuous group atm (hopefully the future is open to revision), but also something of a novely]

First: This may very well be a doomed (doomed to fail) and a cursed (requiring your character's inconvenience every full moon) venture. You have been warned!

Now, this is not a CC nor settlement/nation player group but another kind of affiliation that integrates with any of these with minor conflict of interest (full moon only!). So it's open to anyone.

As a lycanthrope, we only require your services on the full moon. Then you must be ready to follow the Cooperative's strict guidelines on RP of Lycanthropes ie playing with "good form" and keeping the Lycanthrope name in good repute with the rest of the player-base, such as attacking strangers in the wilds during the full moon, attacking indecriminantly and consuming the fallen carcasses of players, animals and mobs. That is all good form and in keeping with the nature and motivations of the Lycanthrope. Your membership will be at risk for example if you choose to use this ability for your character and their group's exploits. The Cooperative will need to sign a contract with members to hold up these standards, as support cast in the world of the River Kingdoms and as in particular Lycanthropes your role during your transformation is altogether very different and more IC focused or should be.

Objectives of the Cooperative:

1. Motion Goblinworks via forging a group membership that supports a MVP version of Lycanthropes in PFO.
2. Work on adapting some rules of Pathfinder Lycanthropes into PFO and submit to Goblinworks for inspection.
3. Work on the role that the Lycanthrope is intended to play. Remember this is not a core progression role but a side-role concerning experiencing what it is like to be a Lycanthrope in the River Kingdoms. For most of the game world's month you can be whoever you want to be and carry out your membership duties. But come the full moon you are expected to shed your human skin and unleash the beast within.
4. Work on the guidelines for altered beasts which members are required to stick to. Think of it as advanced AI with plenty of human scope for spontaneity and RP.
5. Create a website for information on these creatures, a fansite and resource and member's area to centralize working on the above.

A full set of Do's and Don't will be produced as guidelines in a first draft of RP of Lycanthropes.

A full research and summary of the literature available on Lyanthropes will be developed for the above purposes.

The intial step will be to forge a MVP Lycanthrope template that Goblinworks can deploy so that in game our Cooperative can get to work and make good use of. This would appear to be:

MPV Lyanthrope =

1. Wolf model (already developed)
2. Phases of the moon (need to check if Goblinworks are going to implement this graphically or if we can just go by the internal calendar of the game's clock)
3. Stats of the wolf and attack abilities (Could be the same as Monster Cast for the wolf model)
4. Corpse Eating (ideally we'd get some kind of animation here or just attack corpse + buff effect several times in repetition)
5. The account management might be the area with the most initial cost to allocate members this ability for their characters. Needs discussion with Goblinworks.

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Background: I'd taken a look at various CC's and will probably find one or two to join as a normal character. I like the looks of for example:

1. The Forgeholm (dwarf settlement)
2. The keepers of the forest group
3. The barbarian group

etc. These all look appealing. But the early stage of this game, gives me hope and inspiration to create something too... and that is why my character will be a loyal member of these groups but underneath a darkness will be gnawing away, a terrible addition that needs feeding every full moon and ideally in secret from my loyal friends and fellow compansions. An alter-ego with a terrible hunger! A curse under the pale light of the moon.

Anyway, background aside, the main priority will be to develop these ideas into a fully codified form and thereby present something substantial to which people might like to join this doomed (and cursed) adventure with me?

There's one caveat, due to the nature of the RP required, I will only be accepting applications from members on the boards who I have followed their history of and can vouch that I can make a good working relationship based on trust with from their proven history. If any newbs like this idea, then I'll have to postpone your application until I have a full history of your character with which to measure your worthiness to join if that does not sound too high and mighty, at this early stage.

Finally, rival cooperatives that wish to engage with Goblinworks in a Lycanthrope or other form of Franchise are very much welcomed! This is in keeping with the Lycanthrope way of fighting for supremacy and dismembering and devouring the loser in such a fight.

The first thing to do will be to develop the Lycanthrope scene for PFO players. This will gain attention and interest from which we might be able to create a platform engage Goblinworks more seriously (and grow a group out of) on a quote for the MVP Lycanthrope for our Cooperative and also collaborate on the Franchise to be written into our account membership in-game, if all goes well. If not, the theory-crafting will be a lot of fun nonetheless ie the journey if the destination proves unreachable.

##How can this be done: A first draft blueprint##

There's two rationales for how this might be done:

1. As per kickstarter and crowdforging, this application of turning a major event into a number of smaller processes leading to solution that
mixes development and monetization.

2. As per Star Citizen, offering for sale the prospect of different space-ships or in the case of Pathfinder different Races or Templates, I feel if done in such a way that expands in-game interaction options to create a new experience / relationship with other races/characters has strong monetization and pulling power potential.

The key to integrate any deviation from the standard races is to create a shadow-system that aligns with the progression system in some fashion
so that monetization of the character continues as well as power/social/money progression of the player's character that drives the motivation for their characters' ACT-ions ie acting according to a rational basis as humans (OOC) and as actors according to a rational basis as characters in Golarion (IC).

Again I come up with 2 main approaches to HOW this could be done according to 1) Monetization 2) Development both in tandem. I will use a eg as a demonstration or exemplar of how such a system would work both as a concept and in this particular case organizing the details to work consistently.

##An Example using Lycanthropy##

In this example I use as the core/key design material from Pathfinder: ""A Necromancer’s Grimoire: Märchen der Daemonwulf ~ Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Holloway"

1) Monetization:-

(A) The Player Cooperative:

Here a player cooperative forms around a concept of character that they wish to become an actor in the game world. The cooperative comes up with a schema of how the character concept can be designed to fit within the game and gradually introduced in small increments. This schema is checked by Goblinworks and if approved or approved after feedback/modifications, becomes a formal FRANCHISE owned by that player cooperative.

(B) The Goblinworks Franchise:

This is the schema or rules and development pathway agreed between the Cooperative and Goblinworks and the exclusive rights of a given area to develop according to this
partnership is forged.

For example using the stated exemplar to illustrate this...

player or forum-user "AvenaOats" comes up with the idea that their character could choose all sorts of interesting roles and intends to skill-train those in game as per the xp cash-rate of skill-training progression. There are some interesting options for this character to choose with a diverse set of settlements and player groups. Some in particular catch this potential player's notice: A barbarian-focused group, a dward-based settlement and a bunch who form around the concept of "protectors of nature". These all are possible options for a particular character. It is heart-warming to decide between such
riches and interesting concepts...

Yet, the subject of lycanthropy was raised and this raises some interesting questions, a challenge perhaps for this player to form their small group and vision to fit in the world of Golarion, to be more proactive in choosing the destiny they wish to script to allow a particular character concept to breath life into the game world. How to achieve such a daunting undertaking? Especially as the limits of character concepts appear to have been met and set?

Let's read up how others have successfully implemented Lycanthropes in Pathfinder the role-playing game for advice. Then what is the most basic form of this that the devs could manage to add to the
game and what sort of fee might that entail? Then the process of drumming up interest for this new group begins and with it joint ownership and exlclusive control of access and running according to appropriate acting roles/rules of Lycanthropes as properly detailed in the design schema.

For example the most basic form of lycanthropy might be to be able to change the player character into a wolf model during the full moon. This would be a workable basis to start from and a quote from Goblinworks to use as a banner for similar-minded players.

There's the upfront cost that could raised in part by the "Lycanthrope Cooperative" then there's the financing options that perhaps a small percentage could be paid over time to Goblinworks by the Cooperative for exclusive rights and control of the Lycanthrope Franchise in game. A mixed model to finance the development of the basic Lycanthrope
role could then proceed.

Numbers might be ball-parked at this point. Of course it depends on the feasibility and the support achieved from such a group who could negotiate their own ways to crowdforge this particular aspect where they form around an area of common specific interest. Doubly so that the exclusivity works both for the sense of control and ownership and therefore destiny of this part of the game's design but also to actual aid in the implementation of for example the population density and actual role Lycanthropes are to be employed in the game -
properly. Hence,

2) Design:-

As mentioned above, the interaction between design and monetization proceeds in parallel. One of the great assets of this approach is some of the authorship and "buy-in" is by the newly formed Cooperative of players which may then take modifications and feed-back and final appraisal from Goblinworks. This also appears to be an evolution of the Crowdforging partnership process albeit a new branch on that tree where more universal and full player-base partnership is operating as opposed to a niche subset.

So we know how to introduce in this case Lycanthropy in a feasible (cost and dev allocation) and viable form (a wolf that can have appropriate stats and is limited to members and the cycle
of the full moon is as simple but workable as we could wish for).

Let us now focus more on the fully-fleshed design blueprint as part of the formation of a Cooperative Contract of this Franchise with Goblinworks.

Again the Pathfinder IP comes up trumps, as this sort of work has already been done to great satisfaction and therefore can be used as a basis for development towards compatibility in the Online version. So using, ""A Necromancer’s Grimoire: Märchen derDæmonwulf ~ Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Holloway" and summarizing:-

1. "build your own class" approach
2. distill these werewolf powers into feats, and then provide a base class which would be able to make best use of them.
3. For the most pan, these"building blocks- come in the form of feats, starting with the Curse of the Beast ( feat, which allows a character to transform into a wolf, but also forces him to deal with a number of dangerous side-effects.
4. Finally, in addition to 50 feats...
5. first and formost, Lycanthropes are melee combatants, who delight in sinking their teeth into the flesh of their foes..
6. Abilities, Class skills, Alignment, Class features (Class = Role Feature), Moon Cycle affect, devouring corpses...

This is a quick skim of the above work. This would then need to be fitted to the PFO form over subsequent support via the cooperative approach.

We have a workable introduction:-

Wolf Form + Lunar Cycle + Stat change + Consume corpse

Now we need to look at the design of Lycanthrope as an actor in our (chosen) world of Golarion and as an MMO game equally.

1. The Moon cycle (at night time) will limit the transformation which acts to regulate it usefully.
2. The Cooperative members have exclusive rights and access to this functionality, this again usefully limits the ubiquity of Lycanthropes in our world as befits the lore and the horror theme they encourage
3. I believe their fractional population again enhances their role as support-cast to add around the core population and flesh out such a mostly rare curse which makes it especial.
4. But also exclusivity allows 2 other things: Enhanced value as being exclusive but also more tight control of their role in the world by the Cooperative who admit according to the rules of in this case "The Role of The Lycanthrope":

i. The Lycanthrope must abide by the RP rules
ii. These are to assume the mantle of predator of the night and hunt other players during the full moon phase
iii. This should take priority over other concerns during this window or at least until the beast has been satiated on fallen flesh (other players, animals and mobs).
iv. Formation of packs is encouraged if roving widely in wilderness hexes.
v. Attacking indescriminantly even friends is also encouraged while in wolf form. To avoid this travel further away from your group before the full moon.
vi. When we get the audio of a wolf-howl to use this effect in range of potential prey.

The Cooperatives rules are:

i. Pay a small percentage per month to the cooperative for the upkeep of the franchise and privilege of access to the Lycanthrope form.
ii. Meet and discuss the the role of the Lycanthrope and how acting this role can be enhanced for the game world.
iii. Again work together on future development desired and invested in by the devs and cooperative members.
iv. Consider the lycanthrope population and impact and if more members/worthy members can be added given suitable passion and financial investment.

Part of the main work of the cooperative is:

1. RP of Lycanthropes in PFO suitably
2. Work on the further development from the devs on this aspect of the game as well as financing members

An eg of how Lycanthrope might be developed gradually:-

1) Wolf transformation with stats: Use current wolf model
2) Improved wolf model, slightly more were-like wolf and special graphically
3) Add progression path to Lycanthropes which consume sufficient corpses to grant feats
4) Add audio of wolf form
5) Add further lunar variation
6) Add more infrastructure for the Cooperative to finance and manage membership
7) Add a wolf pack hierarchy according to internal feuds and fights, this would be a first step to an internal world of Lycanthropes feuds and attempts at dominance amongst their kind.
8) Add curse aspects of this path in conjunction with the feats acquired - This could be part of the stick given the above carrot, the werewolf addiction to the main character, a habit the character
feels compelled to feed leading to competing interests and conflict.

##Questions and Answers##

Q: Why should Lycanthropes be singled out for special treatment?
A: This is a blueprint for other concepts equally. Lycanthropes act as an illustration exemplar of the potential for this process. An immediate additional example could easily be Vampyres or Liches or etc...

Q: But why should some players have exclusive rights and access when some players may want to play Lycanthropes?
A: MMORPGs are not democracies. Equally that means not all players and characters are or should be the same. Different character concepts and group ethos should be explored by different players according to their personalities and private wishes. Secondly as defined as support cast, this type of concept is intended to be partial representation in addition to the standard main cast and hence as per both lore and practical population dynanics must and needs to be limited proportionally but shadow the main cast of races who are free from such restraints.

Q: Isn't this too far down development to be worthy of consideration however?
A: Sandboxes require development for a widely diverse player base exhibiting different playstyle priorities. This is one way to formalize this within Crowdforging more universal systems for specific group interests. It also follows the same principles of simplicity and parallel between dev scope and player funding the growth of the bud of such smaller systems within the larger game tree.

Q: It seems very unrealistic that Goblinworks would give away control of an aspect of the game to a sub-group of players?
A: This appears to mirror the OGL of Pathfinder in a way where an independent group is able to formalize rules for a specific vision to include in players games. I also like to think that this is a method to engineer some "localism" within the game that all players investing and playing in are party to the total game's franchise. Finally, finding ways to harness players' particular passion in the game I believe is a commercially successful strategy according to the equation: "More People + More Happiness = More Wealth"

Q: I'm still dead against it being player-controlled.
A: Following from above, this imho is necessary, the drama of groups, the business opportunities and ideas over a social hang-out in game and the high-level considerations, are all very important
to the success of the implementation of the idea as well as the actual implementation possible or provided. This to me imitates how business people and such going-concerns are able to get their gossip and info
from other such people over a glass of beer or meal or coffee meeting. I think also it creates their own identity that belongs to them.

Q: So what's to stop a group claiming a cool concept for their franchise and charging extortionate amounts for it to make money?
A: We want and must avoid "rent-seeking", the return on investment for the Cooperative is the continued improvement and expression of these acting roles in the game world and the work and organization
and success at this objective of the fans that creat this sub-culture within the main game's total culture. There would need to be a contract with Goblinworks that establishes good practices and forfeiture of the
Franchise ie terms and conditions.

Q: Ok then how much are we talking about?
A: This requires consultation with Goblinworks for example the most basic goal to achieve (let's refer to the simple ability to change from a character to a wolf model during the full moon in game) We need a quote for that then the Cooperative would need to form and invite certain members to contribute to a total to invest into Goblinwork's offering a formal Franchise (in this case the exclusive rights to the Lycanthrope Franchise). This would be the beginning. Ideally the necessary account management could be built as a template for other such Franchises albeit with their own differences and details and "quotes".

##Personal in an impersonal mmo world##

Comparing the implementation of Werewolves in ESO to the above suggested route I think there is a world of difference. I believe it meets the condition of increasing the "fractal nature" of the world that has been mentioned from time to time.

Admittedly this idea pulls together disparate ideas I'd favor. But remember, different communities finding their niche is the wheel that turns the world. Some of that is economic motivation and some of it is experience and acting taking on it's own generation of content eg the by-product of such denizens on other players as a part of a living world. Ryan's mentioned systems for lots of people, in parallel, repeated lots of times. I think this fits the bill if you consider the franchise system is a blueprint where a group of players can find their niche and their acting role and thereby benefitting the full game world. Tbh I'd be happy to enjoy PFO a game world with werewolves, vampires etc even if my character was none of those things, but the real McCoy versions acted by players feeding their blood or meat addictions etc...

##Comparing to Crowdforging Criteria already set-out##

1 & 3: Exclusive and unique content is the purview of single-player games, not MMOs. Even the IDEA that you can do something exclusively or make something unique implies a design failure.

=> The idea is akin to selling spaceships as per Star Citizen only with a caveat of the Franchise system.

2: To the extent possible that's how we want to build our game - player action creates and destroys.

=> This fulfils a role of a secret society or group with it's own rules/guidelines for members

4: Everything has to have a cost otherwise there will be an infinite supply and the world will suck.

=> Franchise cost and membership allowance

5: Expect that if a thing can be done, it will be done many, many times.

=> see previous

6: Not necessarily. Some people will make art for art's sake. Some game systems exist just to be fun.

=> This fits.

This is why we need to think about systems you can do MANY TIMES and that can be done in PARALLEL by MANY PEOPLE.

1: How will this work if 50 people have to all do it in series or in parallel?

=> With the group's small size and membership according to guidelines when using such templates this needs to be human-managed and agreed according to the group's rules of conduct between themselves.

2: How would a smart player who wanted to abuse this rule exploit it to cause someone else pain?

=> Potentially only sub players +2yrs gain access to the above Franchise possibility. Trusted players need to be found to run these Franchises and have management available if a member deviates too far from the guidelines eg bounty or more.

3: What kind of behavior would naturally emerge in a world where your rule was implemented - what's the effect of your cause?

=> Spefific increase in danger during say travel in the case of Lycanthropes adding to the diversity of the world. Potential market for silver weapons.

Some guidelines to help with ideas likely to attract a lot of support from your peers:
1: Should result in a system, not a one-time action. Remember that we need things characters can do thousands of times, and by tens of thousands of characters in parallel.
2: Should create meaningful human interaction. Something you do that nobody else ever knows about isn't helpful.
3: Should involve group action. An easy way to ensure #2, and leads to interesting potential connections to large game systems like economy, warfare or hex development.
4: Should be classifiable as exploration, development, domination or adventure content.
5: The wider the set of characters that can use the idea the broader support for that idea will be. You're asking people to make either/or tradeoffs, so you need to consider who would vote for a feature for you that meant some feature for them would not happen.

To address:

1. This is a method that could scaled according to multiple races/templates even if there are population limits per category.
2. Meaningful in forming specific motivations and characters to inhabit the world as additions to the main plot-line of civilization vs wilderness. Each character (race/template may take up additional roles according to some particular motivation that is IC).
3. Yes forms a player cooperative network around a specific interest and high engagement targetted for those players to run their own subset of the game reality.
4. Given this is the support cast these roles may well be closer to exploration/adventure than the main plotline of domination though they might interact at that level marginally depending on the category. For example with a limited membership base, the resource raising to fund investment of their particular area of the game world could be a driving common motivation to provide services in game for gain.
5. This is the key, the blueprint is for expanding the market appeal but also focusing on forging specific player collectives invested in the game and in particular a specific section of it.

##Acknowledgements##

DeaconWulf: https://pathfinderonlinecrowdforging.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Acquired-Templates /38044-30320
Bluddwulf
Andius the Afflicted: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r7cq?Vampires-and-Werewolves-How-to-Viably-Add
Ryan Dancey (many posts!)
Authors: Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Holloway (Necromancers of the Northwest): A Necromancer’s Grimoire: Märchen der Daemonwulf ~ Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Holloway (highly recommended)
An American Werewolf In London (great fun!)
The Howling
OGL (This is a great idea)

Reading an article on Here's how Dungeons & Dragons is changing for its new edition demonstrates a polar competition going on as to the destiny of the game systems of DnD and perhaps Pathfinder and more generally Themepark vs Sandbox mmorpgs.

I think that perhaps the TT is more condusive to the former and the computer is perhaps more conducive to the latter. But to check if there are any lessons to be learn from the former as applied to MMORPs and PFO?

A quick description from this perspective:-

##Story and MMORPG##

The story is a sequence of events usually narrated to an audience and often concerning a particular cast of characters.

In the mmorpg the cast are obviously the player characters and the sequence of events in the sandbox are the actions of the players that then are recounted post-hoc (as compared to a themepark's ad hoc) to make sense and to "change the world" which changes for all the players. A common pitfall of mmorpgs has been to cast the players as ALL main protagonists. This does not appear to be a very fruitfall solution to scaling up the game world into a virtual world.

##Cast and MMORPG in PFO##

Here's the list of Core Races in PFO:-

• Dwarf
  
• Elf
  
• Gnome
  
• Half Elf
  
• Half Orc
  
• Halfling
  
• Human

I like the list, you have sub-categories:

Material Races: Human, Dwarf, Halfling
Half Material/Fey: Half-Elf
Fey Races: Elf, Gnome
Half-Bestial: Half Orc

This shows variation of characters that derive from a larger "frame of reference" (to which they inherit such intrinsic properties that inform their thoughts and actions) with which we understand how the world of Golarion works. An important point to consider if our characters are going to be enabled to act their parts in the drama appropriately in this world. This to me is the essence of creating a virtual world of actors.

A comparison with EVE:-

From what I know of this game, all characters can be derived primarily as "characters who fly spaceships" which is close to the title of the recent documentary of this game. Hence the acting ability of these characters is very clear/universally shared. I think this might be a exaggerated difference for PFO, necessary as suggested by for example Alignment and Reputation (both from lore/setting and from practical purposes of stage management)?

##The Character's Journey##

In the mmorpg this takes the form of "progression" when compared to the narrative version. Three ways of breaking this down:-

1. Power (skill-training)
2. Social (settlements)
3. Money (resources)

The other measure that is a by-product of these achievements is fun/reward as well as the actual process towards this events
(fun/experience).

I think the above race selections are more than adequate to achieve the fun/reward for these things and the experience also being
interesting with diverse roles via skill-training. I would however like to see some form of intrinsic difference between these races manifest.

One of the notable things about these actors is that they are all part of the equation of the world where Civilization is pushing against
Wilderness. To be successful/growing whether good/evil or lawful/chaotic, this applies as groups of players scale up as per the MMO part to our
RPG adventure story. This is the main cast of our story that scales.

##The Support Cast's Entrance?##

Some of the other races that fall out of this fully from Pathfinder:

Aasimar
Catfolk
Dhampir
Drow
Fetchling
Goblin
Hobgoblin
Ifrit
Kobold
Orc
Oread
Ratfolk
Sylph
Tengu
Tiefling
Undine

Or perhaps some of the templates as per a previous thread. What is the rationale for including more races? Again we return to the above:

>"This shows variation of characters that derive from some a larger "frame of reference" (to which they inherit such intrinsic properties that inform their thoughts and actions) with which we understand how the world of Golarion works. An important point to consider if our characters are going to be enabled to act appropriately in this world."

What I mean is that the thoughts and feelings of these variable denizens and perhaps their mode of interaction they are "fitted" for shapes the player experience and interaction options with the game world (and other players)?

In my opinion I think there are 2 key areas why these are important:-

1) Interaction change allows different relationships and different objectives

2) Frame of Reference in fantasy is often "what if... ?" questions that allude to an alternative destiny according to a different world's different rules.

I think these are powerful tools for the actor to use to construct their character and hence inhabit and breathe life into the construct
world (a mix of graphics, code/rules and immersion/imagination).

Yet the division between the support cast and the main cast suggests that solutions are required to add them to the game in such a way
that such division remains in tact but variously so on a case-by-case basis.

Why are am I gunning for the support cast? I believe as per the recent thread on "Commoners" Commoner Role & it's Disparaging Connotations our characters have a lots of potential at this level of interaction in the story and secondly as per the thread here,
My History With The Empyrean Order, Why I Created It, and Why I Left. drama is ever important to game world full of players.

Yes the game will be systematic and crunchy, but it will need to be a theatre of the mind also it seems equally as important and lessons from the theatre, the actor, the script may apply to how we understand how PFO should develop possible.

CCP Games halts development of World of Darkness MMO

CCP Games today announced that they have cancelled the World of Darkness massively multiplayer online (MMO) game project in development in their Atlanta, GA studio.

As a result of the change, 56 employees of the Atlanta studio have lost their jobs. Some team members have been offered roles on other projects inside the company, and CCP has provided severance packages and job placement assistance for those affected.

The remaining team in Atlanta will focus on games in the EVE Universe, which will mark the first time since 2006 that the entirety of CCP will be working on a single universe.

CCP CEO Hilmar Veigar Pétursson:

The decision to end the World of Darkness MMO project is one of the hardest I’ve ever had to make. I have always loved and valued the idea of a sandbox experience set in that universe, and over the years I’ve watched the team passionately strive to make that possible.

I would like to give special thanks to everyone who worked so hard to make the World of Darkness MMO a reality, especially the team members affected by this decision. Their considerable contribution to CCP will not be forgotten, and we wish them well.

To our current and former employees and fans of World of Darkness, I am truly sorry that we could not deliver the experience that we aspired to make. We dreamed of a game that would transport you completely into the sweeping fantasy of World of Darkness, but had to admit that our efforts were falling regretfully short. One day I hope we will make it up to you.

Although this was a tough decision that affects our friends and family, uniting the company behind the EVE Universe will put us in a stronger position moving forward, and we are more committed than ever to solidify EVE as the biggest gaming universe in the world.

Just goes to show: Started in 2006; experience and cutting edge developer yet still failed to get the game past development. Realize CCP was probably juggling too many balls and not a big publisher to bankroll them all.

Well done Goblinworks on getting this far in such a short space of time in such a challenging genre. Seems a shame to see all the work on WoD go to waste.

A couple of panels at Pax East:

FRIDAY 4/11 3:00PM - 4:00PM (Boston MA: timeanddate): What Is Happening to Tabletop Roleplaying Games?

SATURDAY 4/12 4:30PM - 5:30PM (pax-east time): MMORPG.com - The Future of Online Games

=

MMORPG.com will probably post the video online a day or two later for their panel (I'll post it here when it's up). Just in case anyone is going/interested beforehand.

Pathfinder Online's Ryan Dancey on crowdforging a 'minimum viable product'

In response to our recent editorial questioning whether we are in fact in the middle of a sandbox renaissance, Goblinworks CEO Ryan Dancey has penned a Massively-exclusive dev blog to explain why his game, Pathfinder Online, is indeed at the center of such a renaissance.

Cont'd...

The Decline of MMOs ~ by Richard Bartle (May 2013)

Abstract:

Ten years ago, massively-multiplayer online role-playing games (MMOs) had a bright and exciting future. Today, their prospects do not look so glorious. In an effort to attract ever-more players, their gameplay has gradually been diluted and their core audience has deserted them. Now that even their sources of new casual players are drying up, MMOs face a slow and steady decline. Their problems are easy to enumerate: they cost too much to make; too many of them play the exact same way; new revenue models put off key groups of players; they lack immersion; they lack wit and personality; players have been trained to want experiences that they
don’t actually want; designers are forbidden from experimenting. The solutions to these problems are less easy to state.

Can anything be done to prevent MMOs from fading away?

Well, yes it can. The question is, will the patient take the medicine?

Kickstarter: Darkest Dungeon by Red Hook Studios

Uncompromising, unforgiving, and unconventional, we present a fresh take on the dungeon crawler that elevates the importance of sound tactics and a character's mental state over their gear.

You will recruit, train, and lead a team of flawed heroes through twisted forests, forgotten warrens, ruined crypts and beyond. You'll battle not only unimaginable foes, but stress, famine, disease, and the ever-encroaching dark. Uncover strange mysteries, and pit the heroes against an array of fearsome monsters with an innovative strategic turn-based combat system.

You will have to tend to characters’ spirits as much as you do to their Hit Points. But in these grim situations, you'll find opportunities for true heroism!

Darkest Dungeon is not a game where every hero wins the day with shiny armor and a smile. It is a game about hard trade-offs, nearly certain demise, and heroic reversals.

Do you have what it takes to survive in the forgotten corners of the Darkest Dungeon?

Website: Darkest Dungeon

Darkest Dungeon - Terror and Madness Trailer (OFFICIAL)

Darkest Dungeon - House of Ruin Trailer (OFFICIAL)

=

Looks like a roguelike-like 2d-dungeon-crawler akin to Oregon Trail or FTL (another roguelike-like successful kickstarter). Reminds me of Torchbearer too (RPG). Worth a look and already funded. The Trailers are rollicking fun too.

Mostly general, but some thoughtful discussions on eg Transition of the IP, how hexes work (soft launch, single server), Paizo, Emerald Spire, crowdfunding tool and alpha, OE, EE... etc all stuff we're mostly familiar with here on the forums.

• Part 1

• Part 2

• Part 3

• Part 4

MMORPG.com: Pathfinder Online’s Ryan Dancey Defends Elder Scrolls Online and Subscriptions

What is a "Polar Vortex"?

tl;dr: "The plunging temperatures result from the polar vortex, an anti-clockwise pool of cold, dense air."

How could it affect The River Kingdoms?

• Freezing temperatures that are life-threatening; exacerbated by wind-chill factors
  
• Severe disruption and stop to traffic; including blocking of roads
  
• Crop failure; livestock in danger
  
• Snow and ice and blizzard conditions requiring specialist equipment to go outside and piles of logs to keep warm.

What does one look like using a weather isobar temperature map?

Polar Vortex Over N. America

I notice the news section of Goblinworks website suggests the official announcement was on this date (which will be 2yrs on Thursday).

Paizo Licenses Pathfinder MMO Rights 21.11.11 (dd.mm.yy)

Maybe an extra special blog post on Wednesday *any excuse*?

Looking at the useful overview in the Goblinworks blog: "Adventure in the River Kingdoms", as part of my attempt to write a blog on PvE:

Settlement Economic System

This overview indicates settlements' diverse resource demands.

I was browsing Shroud of the Avatar's "non-combat" options in their forums which I'm hoping is a more microscopic overview that would similarly be in PFO for gathering and requiring eg a sickle [gear requirement] to "gather" herbs as well as various highly diverse skill-training [ability requirement] along these paths:

Magic, Combat, and Crafting Skills

The author d-star is Starr Long one of the devs from UO so a useful point of reference. But yes the long-winded approach is why I've delayed finishing the above blog (!): What I mean is that I discovered that mostly when I think of PvE (and perhaps most players do this too unwittingly) is that you think of killing mobs to get loot and wandering around doing this.

Yet as per PvE = Resource faucet = any object that can be broken down into smaller basic things to then recombine into useful more complex things ie mob, animal, plant, magical stuff, natural stuff (ores) etc, is a much more interesting more world-interacting conception of "PvE" than the former "player vs environment" which should actually be "player + environment" as well. IE PvE is a limited and limiting descriptor tag. I mean it should be PvM (Player vs Mob)?

So,

Q: I was wondering if devs are intending to have as diverse a system of non-combat skills or similar system as that linked?

GDC Vault: Video: Richard Bartle on the origins and design of MUD

I hope Gobinworks are able to take on board the ideas here (eg Trinity, Levels, Immersion etc) as they're relevant to what the devs are trying to achieve and why. If you have a spare hour, it's a good talk as you'd expect from Mr. Bartle.

[PREAMBLE]

I really hope this question makes sense, but it's been nagging me unformed for a long time and more recently more fully formed until the point this question has grown.

One of the things I really like is the small and frequent update system envisaged by Goblinworks to the game. One very obvious reason is the possibility of "new toys to play with" as well as the atmosphere that the devs are actively engaged with the game visibly so.

But the by-product of this is that many major systems won't be available at the basic start of the game or even eg 3 races to begin with and 4 "class paths" at it were. Now these limitations might turn out to be strengths and here's why:

[CUT TO THE CHASE...]

If the skill system is very huge at least in potential then skills tie-into many parts of the game eg buildings, roles and more. So if these are conceived as "new knowledge" how is that presented to players?

1) The devs demo it and have a write up how it is going to work ahead of time
2) Players test it out all at the same time and feedback to the devs oc.

or

1) New skills are developed or "RESEARCHED" in particular areas and are only found where enough "research" has been invested. So this knowledge is proprietary so to speak or novel to the world. No info is given ahead of it's "discovery" and it's up to the players to find out what it does/use it

2) Select players test it out and possibly staggered according to discovery time or access to the founding settlement?

=

I'm guessing as settlements will specialize anyway, that is sort of how it will happen anyway, but the question of how "UNKNOWN" such a discovery is until it is built/used/developed so it takes on the aspect of an innovation or invention is sort of where I'm wondering how this will work?

This info will seem to track what is crowdforged and at first I guess there won't be any space for deviation. But if player numbers increase and the skill tree has many small branches then perhaps the idea of "discovery/innovation" of threading the frontiers of knowledge might be possible - as well as the large value of such initial discovery before it becomes more wide-spread across the player population.

I hope all if any of that makes sense? Maybe someone can understand what I'm driving at and put it much more adequately than the above?

To Recap:

1. A mix of dev resources available
2. A mix of crowdforging priorities possible
3. A mix of how many skill forks have been developed in the game from few->many
4. A mix of different settlement specializations claiming "firsts"
5. A mix of player-testing vs 4.
6. What form "research/invention" takes in game?
7. How much prior knowledge players have of what directions different choices they make will exactly lead to? Cons of players wasting resources but Pros of "the unknown" across the board with secret knowledge perhaps unless leaked/shared?

First place to start is that PFO is an "Open World PvP" mmorpg.

Second place to start is to contextualize PvP within the game: How Pathfinder Online Is Put Together

The third consideration is to look at why PvP is put forward by GW's:

Some positives:

• Player vs Player combat is more complex than what AI can achieve
  
• Variety of contexts of combat gameplay can interact with PvP: From solo combat to groups of variable sizes, to mixes of pvp with pve to massive combat eg armies. Namely it can be more variable and scales better than AI (PvE) content does.
  
• Refining FFA pvp towards Open World gradated pvp means that different areas of the game can change depending on the players controlling those areas from highly safe (NPC controlled) towards highly dangerous (uncontrolled areas) and many gradations inbetween.
  
• This allows players to have real consequence on the areas in the game world as well as provide the different levels of excitement.
  
• Core to the above is the result of risk vs reward on the economy with pvp acting as a sink and pve acting as a faucet on the economy, hence the integration of open world pvp with pve atst integrate with the virtual economy of the game, as well as players choosing their preferred level of comfort or danger.
  
• PvP does not preclude other gameplay types and may drive demand for other styles of gameplay
  
• PvP can produce higher forms of both competition and cooperation with player groups again central to PFO's design.
  

Some Negatives:

• PvP can act as a major griefing tool.
  
• The largest group (zerg) can end up winning all the time by numbers and not strategy leading to a dull gameplay.
  
• PvP can become overly-dominant form of gameplay leaving other systems less viable.
  
• PvP can lead to a hyper-competitive environment and toxic mindset more easily than PvE.
  
• Players can really lose value: progress/economic/time.
  
• It can result in new players or some groups being dominated and always on the losing side of the game which is not fun.
  
• If PvP is dominant system, then "build-wars" can lead to a stale progression system.
  

Goblin Works has identified all these positives and negatives and intends to use the former and solve the latter. Some egs:

A couple of threads by Ryan Dancey:

Kickstarter Community Thread: Player vs. Player Conflict

A couple of comments about PvP / Griefing

I can tell you that in Pathfinder Online you will be involved in non-consensual interaction with other players on a regular basis.

That is not to say that unlimited poor behavior will be tolerated. There are three ways that behavior can be limited:

1: Game Mechanics - the game itself can establish limits on what can and cannot be done. It can also establish punishments for doing things that are considered poor behavior even if it does not outright restrict them.

2: Community Management - the humans who watch over the game can act to force certain kinds of behavior to cease when they are petitioned for help. Those same humans can escalate the matter to the point where a repeat or particularly egregious offender's accounts are closed.(*)

3: Social Engineering - the humans who play within the game can act to enforce certain norms of behavior by providing and withholding access to shared community resources in response to character behavior.

[...]

I'm especially concerned with ensuring that new players are able to learn how to play the game, gain some mastery of basic gameplay features, have some fun, and have a great experience without having to worry about someone intentionally ruining it for them by scamming them, killing them, taunting them, or otherwise disrupting their attention which should be focused on dealing with the sensory overload of going into a new virtual world.

I'm secondarily concerned with ensuring that people who choose a low risk / low reward course of play are able to do so without regular interruption by those seeking to gain enjoyment from interfering with them as they go about their business.

And:

2. Zones of variable PvP danger: NPC (safe) -> Uncontrolled (dangerous)
3. PvP Settlement Windows
4. Reputation System to assort players as well as regulate pvp between groups as well within groups.
5. Other non-pvp roles of skill-progression to play the game with minimum combat.
6. GM appeals for players to appeal to as a last resort.

=

So generally I think if players have questions about PvP, then informing them is arming them with the ability to choose the right decision for themselves.

It's a pvp game, but it's also more than just a pvp game! (hopefully a great game)

During the lull in the blogs, and with reference to Ryan's recent "wake up call" (see below), it might be a good time to take stock and pull together our current resources and start forming a plan. We know community is going to be a big deal in PFO and it's also an area we can start well ahead of time on forming, particularly during EE and even before then. Without further ado: Ryan's bombshells:

In this way, BigTown has enforced security across a huge territory. To displace them, you have to break Guardsman's defenses. You can't do that solo. You need AnotherBigTown.

This is the problem everyone will face. These groups are ALREADY OUT THERE, and they'll come to our game as soon as we prove we're not another doomed to fail tiny MMO. They're good. They're well trained. They're cohesive. And they want your land.

The way you defeat BigTown is by making AnotherBigTown. It's the reason there won't be a bunch of small boutique Settlements with NRDS security policies. They'll be rolled up by the first wave of organized external Guilds when they show up.

Namely: A big cross-section of the community by OE are going to be going for the jugular: War has already started for these groups and they've done the preliminary work to be ready for it:

1. Size
2. Organisation
3. Experience
4. Little or no resistance!

2 Responses:

1st: We need to understand these groups more.

##ACTION POINT## Compile a Dossier on these organisations!! How many, what their tactics are, when they might turn up in PFO, how to identify them, what their motivation will be etc. This is probably a good step as any negotiation and compromise in forming agreements will need to demonstrate strong necessity.

2nd: We need to form a suitable strategy of resistance:

PRIMARY OBJECTIVE: Appropriate and workable response to above.
SECONDARY OBJECTIVE: Promote diversity of the PFO community and expansion of players into niches of their preference.
PRIMARY OBJECTIVE > SECONDARY OBJECTIVE = [Meta] A Confederation of Communities

Let's take stock first:

- 58 Chartered Companies are listed on Nihimon's count
- 166 CCs are listed on the experimental "Land Rush!" register.
- 696 "votes" were counted
- The Top 10 most votes counted CCs for indication of main support:

The Empyrean Order...........114
Pax Aeternum..................67
The Seventh Veil..............49
Keepers of the Circle.........36
Knights of the Crusader Road..24
Les Compagnons................22
Inconnu.......................12
Mystical Awakening............12
Peace Through Vigilance.......12
Taur-im-Duinath...............12

58 gave a count of 0. So the take-home is that this is not a full list of responses, but it does suggest a lot of the CC's here could do with forming a confederation to form a settlement.

##ACTION POINT### We need to start building up compatible communities via communicating intentions to align with a general strategy considering all the above. Starting with the larger CC's that can fully-form (functional) settlements from the get-go.

Total scope of KS backers who could be included in this initiative is according to KS (+/- various measures)

----------
= ~9,000
----------

##ACTION POINT## We might need as many of those as possible.

- From the forum thread: "Where are you in meatspace": Another criteria we need to think about collecting for our general strategy: West-East in descending order:

USA/CAN (1) = 60
EU/UK (8) = 23
RUS = 1
ME = 1
TAI = 2
AUS/NZ (2) = 8

As this will likely dictate PvP Windows and hence Growth of settlements.

- A quick brief of the Alignment CCs (x58) Indicates a lot of diversity and personal preferences and visions for CCs.

##ACTION POINT## Will need to identify the challenges to assorting different CC's with compatible other CC's to form early workable (& fun) Settlements and negotiation and compromise until PRIMARY OBJECTIVE can be achieved.

What we currently know about EE is that at least 15 Settlement Hexes will be available. If we stick to our rationale we'll need to consider how to maximize both our PRIMARY and SECONDARY objectives with a view towards the coming Tsunami of OE.

##ACTION POINT## We need to form the core governance of any Confederation during EE and use that powerbase to determine how power is shared amongst our diverse (potential future) members.

TL;DR: This is just some paizo forums whiteboard drawing up a response from Ryan's early warning to us. On the downside, we're already at war. On the upside: It was coming... and it's a great catalyst towards crowdforging the community. First step might be to write up something a bit more standardized and agreed on, and start liasing with the early catchment pool of kickstarter backers?

As usual please share your thoughts and opinions.

Got a playable demo/build to show. Nice. "Would you like to know more?" [click]

Another interesting perspective on mmorpg economies. I think given the recent Cash Shop discusssions it's worth linking this in it's own thread.

The Barrier to Big

In particular:

Similarly, if you are the only one that owns a horse in a virtual world, that horse has tremendous value due to its scarcity. If you log in the next day and due to a bug or exploit now 500 people have horses, the value of your horse has now dropped to almost nothing.

[...]

What if I spent three months earning the first horse in a game, and then a few days later I found out that 500 other players now had horses. But this was not due to a bug per se, this was because the game host decided that horses were cool and that players would pay real money for them. Again I describe this in Mona Lisa. Now horses are not cool anymore, and my equity has been destroyed. I'm upset! More importantly, I have now lost confidence in the game world and it's hosts because I know they will not protect my efforts.

Torchbearer Kickstarter Link

"A dungeon crawl roleplaying game and love letter to Basic D&D."

This is from the creator(s) of Burning Wheel and is a "hack" of Mouse Guard:

The Game

Torchbearer was designed by Thor Olavsrud, our long-suffering editor. It's based on our 2008 game Mouse Guard. It shares the same core system and concepts, but it adds a layer of complexity in the form of resource management, turn structure and conflict.

In the spectrum of BWHQ games, Torchbearer is advanced Mouse Guard. It’s not as complex as Burning Wheel or Burning Empires, but it’s certainly more involved than Mouse Guard or even FreeMarket. From a broader perspective, it's Basic D&D on Hard mode.

The Book

The book itself is a 200-page letter-sized hard cover with a four color cover and black and white interiors. We're breaking away from our traditional digest-sized book as a bit of an experiment. We want to see what it feels like to publish a big ol' RPG book. And of course it's an homage to all those great AD&D hardcovers.

Forbes Preview Link

pdf slides: "How to cheat at MMOs... without cheating."

This is a chilled out, fun and insightful description. Worth a look. :)

Runnin' Down a Dream

One final note for this week: We're really pleased with all the discussions the last several blogs have generated on the message board forums. We're interested in your ideas for additional topics, and I want to encourage you to let us know what you'd like us to write about in upcoming posts.

Your feedback is invaluable!

And Rich Baker in the thread: Let's play a guessing game... suggestions summary:

• Kyras Ausks - "As weird as it may sound I would really like to know what the first ten minutes will be like. IE. what decision could we make at creation and how will we be greeted in to the world."

• Nihimon - "I'd love to hear the team's latest thoughts on sub-Roles (Druid Bear forms, Wizard Specializations, Sorcerer Bloodlines, etc.)"

• AvenaOats - "Tab-targeting, Bestiary"

• Valandur - "formation combat, settlement management & maintenance, instancing, what ways will players be able to interact with NPC mobs of similar alignment?"

• Tuoweit - "I'd like to see more detail on what you expect the skill trees to look like. Also, I'll +1 Ravenlute's "Spells!" How do they work within (and outside of!) the combat system?"

• Skwiziks - "I'm very curious about the way Archetypes and Skills will play out."

• The Wiseman of the Wilds - "How settlements and NPCs will operate and their relationships would be nice, short Q&A-catch-up per blog."

• Sepherum - "I'd like to see a blog addressing the status of animal companions, mounts, npc workers, summoned/controlled creatures and other 'friends' of chars in the game."

• Harad Navar - "I would like to see a blog about how the interaction of characters with a settlement will work at EE, and how do they see that "escalating" with time."