Pax East Panels ft. Ryan Dancey: The Future of Online Games & What Is Happening to Tabletop Roleplaying Games?


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

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A couple of panels at Pax East:

FRIDAY 4/11 3:00PM - 4:00PM (Boston MA: timeanddate): What Is Happening to Tabletop Roleplaying Games?

SATURDAY 4/12 4:30PM - 5:30PM (pax-east time): MMORPG.com - The Future of Online Games

=

MMORPG.com will probably post the video online a day or two later for their panel (I'll post it here when it's up). Just in case anyone is going/interested beforehand.

Goblin Squad Member

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Good Ole' Avena! Always scouring The Interwebz for more gospel. :)

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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I won't be at PAX East this year, so I can't provide the low-quality video I was able to last year.

Goblin Squad Member

Audible is the only quality that matters, Decius, if it's available early which you managed!

Maybe Ryan will mention where they are with Alpha and the time-span to reach it in the panel. Timing seems to align nicely this year. We'll know soon enough. The Repopulation (Joshua Halls) guy might be worth listening too: They're doing well on a budget too.

Goblin Squad Member

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@AvenaOats,

From what I gather it looks like the GW staff not only goes to these kinds of activity to promote PFO, but also to learn from the competition, see that state of affairs of MMO and RPGs, to network, to meet with fans/player base, and to also enjoy themselves.

Interviews with Ryan, Eric Mona, Jason Jacob and other Paizo staff always come out as informative, knowledgeable and up to date.

Goblin Squad Member

I think you can watch live the mmorpg.com panel here: twitch.tv/pax2 > Albatross Theater - Schedule > SATURDAY > 04:30pm - MMORPG.com - The Future of Online Games

Admittedly these panels can sometimes be more about the publicity than the games or genre.

Goblin Squad Member

Nice

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Audience member wrote:

I feel that the identity of classes is being lost. I mean, when I used to play in a group I was the cleric, I was the healer and I wanted to be THE healer. And now every class can heal, you click a button and change your talent spec and the tank's the healer now. I think that's a very bad thing because I don't feel like I'm contributing anything to the group.

Do you feel the same way?

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Yes.

:)

Goblin Squad Member

Direct Link

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Audience member wrote:

I feel that the identity of classes is being lost. I mean, when I used to play in a group I was the cleric, I was the healer and I wanted to be THE healer. And now every class can heal, you click a button and change your talent spec and the tank's the healer now. I think that's a very bad thing because I don't feel like I'm contributing anything to the group.

Do you feel the same way?

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Yes.
:)

Ryan's answer to the nonsensical question was disconnected from the direction he claims PFO is moving in.

Think about the possible solutions for the questioner:

1. Deal with multi classing / no class arch types
2. Get the Devs to take away everyone else's choice to multi class
3. Become such a great healer that no one else believes they need anyone but you
4. Leave the game for one that has strictly limited class archetypes.

The questioner seemed incapable of 1 or 3. The game Devs won't take away everyone else's freedom for the whining of just one person. So that leaves 4 as his obvious solution, which makes his question nonsense, because he should know on his own that is his best choice.

Lol it just makes me laugh at his last quote "I think that's a very bad thing because I don't feel like I'm contributing anything to the group." They (his group) probably feel he is useless dead weight as well.

Goblin Squad Member

I really enjoyed the Future of Online Games panel. A lot of good responses.

Goblin Squad Member

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Bluddwolf wrote:
Ryan's answer to the nonsensical question was disconnected from the direction he claims PFO is moving in.

I don't think so.

There are a lot of things Ryan has said about PFO that are applicable, including the fact that you can't change spec in the field, and that you can only slot a very limited number of abilities. "Suddenly the tank's the healer" isn't going to happen in PFO.

Ryan's answer seemed to me like an honest one, and I think the concerns he shares with the person who asked it are evident in much of PFO's design.

Bluddwolf wrote:
They (his group) probably feel he is useless dead weight as well.

Why is it so easy for you to insult people? I would genuinely feel bad about myself if I'd said something like that, yet it seems incredibly easy for you.

Goblin Squad Member

Panel was worth the watch, thanks for the link.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

So the MMO one was recorded, but the tabletop one wasn't?

Goblinworks Game Designer

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We're trying to avoid the trinity (and it doesn't work as well in PvP games anyway, since it relies so much on AI threat mechanics), and our intent isn't that you have to have a party of completely balanced roles to be successful... but our roles do say a lot about your capabilities, and we intend there to be synergies in a mixed party.

A player in PFO can switch fairly quickly to a different role... if she's a many-year veteran who's maxed multiple roles or someone who's deliberately slowed advancement in one role to be mid-level and roughly at the same strength in multiple ones. It's not instantaneous, and doing so in the field requires lugging around potentially a lot of extra gear (and the stuff you're not currently wearing can't be threaded). It's far more likely that this will, when used, be to adapt with forewarning to a changing tactical landscape (e.g., "that looks like a lot of undead, maybe we should field an extra cleric"), rather than to make one guy feel like his role isn't useful because someone else can cover it as needed and then go back to her normal role.

Pursuing multiple roles is a good thing to do early to figure out what you like doing (as the other panelists mentioned), and veterans will eventually have access to a lot of options, but in the moment, if you're not slotted as a pure role, it's because you've found something you feel is a synergistic multiclass useful enough to forego a dedication bonus. And even in that case, party members dedicated to the individual roles that make up your build should still be able to shine with the capabilities you've forgone.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
It's not instantaneous, and doing so in the field requires lugging around potentially a lot of extra gear (and the stuff you're not currently wearing can't be threaded).

This is a very interesting part imo. There has been talk about how people will avoid taking any valuables with them because of the looting policies, that they will only take with them the bare necessities (like a harvesting kit) and for the rest only their threaded items. That would leave only freshly harvested crafting ingredients as possible loot (I am exaggerating here).

But the above quote could make things a lot more interesting: if a veteran wants to take full use of the many abilities he has gained over the years, he will have to lug around more interesting "loot" indeed.

So versatility in the field comes with a risk. The fact that changing roles is rather easy to do, and does not require you to go back to town or some, will actually make this an option( the taking with you of extra gear). I like those options!

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
They (his group) probably feel he is useless dead weight as well.
Why is it so easy for you to insult people? I would genuinely feel bad about myself if I'd said something like that, yet it seems incredibly easy for you.

I found it easy in his case because he is not a team player and his question was based in selfishness. His real desire in that question was to get at least one Dev to affirm that players should not have choices and that the Trinity is the best way to go. Most of all his complaint was that other players in his group were healing themselves, and he had a problem with that.

It just harkened back to my last days in WoW when I could not get into a raid group as a dual wield warrior because I was more dps oriented and I did not have taunt trained. Players telling other players how they should play or how they should be spec'ed out just rubs me the wrong way.

Goblin Squad Member

That's more of a "demonstration" than an "explanation"...

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
That's more of a "demonstration" than an "explanation"...

It could also be an exclamation, a declaration or even a proclamation. But it won't be an emancipation from the questioner's selfish demands or my labeling of them as such.

Yes, I doubled down! Prepared to triple down if need be.

Goblin Squad Member

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I don't think the core of the audience member's argument is all that selfish; he just wants to help his teammates and be appreciated for the help he provides. The issue comes in when someone else can do his job better and he's just replaced/sidelined, much like the issue you were talking about with being denied as a warrior for not speccing tank.

I think the biggest part of regular play in PfO that will allay these concerns is that there's always room for another person to come along in your party (maybe forming another party if needed), and strength in numbers means you're encouraged to bring along the extra guy. So, speaking from the perpective of a group leader, if you feel like someone's build is sub-optimal, there's very little reason to not have him along in PfO. This differs from (as an example of many other, similar games) WoW where a hard number on the group size with no other way of bringing extra people into the dungeon/raid to help means that you have to kick the "weak link" out of the group to add in someone who you think will do a better job.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Shane Gifford wrote:
... in PfO... there's always room for another person...

+1

:)

Goblin Squad Member

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Haha! You gotta love Ryan when he's on his game.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Bluddwolf wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
They (his group) probably feel he is useless dead weight as well.
Why is it so easy for you to insult people? I would genuinely feel bad about myself if I'd said something like that, yet it seems incredibly easy for you.

I found it easy in his case because he is not a team player and his question was based in selfishness. His real desire in that question was to get at least one Dev to affirm that players should not have choices and that the Trinity is the best way to go. Most of all his complaint was that other players in his group were healing themselves, and he had a problem with that.

It just harkened back to my last days in WoW when I could not get into a raid group as a dual wield warrior because I was more dps oriented and I did not have taunt trained. Players telling other players how they should play or how they should be spec'ed out just rubs me the wrong way.

I admire your ability to deconstruct motives of a person from ten seconds of audio. When you have the chance to verify your conclusions, how often are they accurate?

I don't think a limited slot in a WoW raid can be given to someone who doesn't meet the needs of the raid. If the raid has enough DPS and needs a tank, it can't afford to bring in a hybrid DPS/tank. Not having puzzle-based raids with gear and Ability quotas means that your particular problem shouldn't even be easy to express.

Goblin Squad Member

RyanD wrote:

What is "The Repopulation"?

Classic.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
Audience member wrote:

I feel that the identity of classes is being lost. I mean, when I used to play in a group I was the cleric, I was the healer and I wanted to be THE healer. And now every class can heal, you click a button and change your talent spec and the tank's the healer now. I think that's a very bad thing because I don't feel like I'm contributing anything to the group.

Do you feel the same way?

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Yes.
:)

Ryan's answer to the nonsensical question was disconnected from the direction he claims PFO is moving in.

This was also the first question in the 'lightning round' of questions. I'm positive that Ryan would have explained in much more depth had he been given the chance.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Areks wrote:
RyanD wrote:

What is "The Repopulation"?

Classic.

Yeah, that Developer didn't take to kindly to it. Nor did the other when Ryan yelled out, his was the last of the Theme Park MMOs. I think it is a bit premature to write off TP MMOs. If that were the case then why bother developing a hybrid? Just go full sandbox MMO, but they won't because the customer base is not there yet.

Goblin Squad Member

Dazyk wrote:
I'm positive that Ryan would have explained in much more depth had he been given the chance.

Watched it twice to be sure, and I think he went for a nice pun--that many in the audience seemed not to plumb--as his deliberately complete contribution.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan, compared to all those whippersnappers up on the panel (except maybe the EQN guy) you certainly stand out! Did you have to yell at them to pull their pants up and get off your lawn? :P


Stephen Cheney wrote:

We're trying to avoid the trinity (and it doesn't work as well in PvP games anyway, since it relies so much on AI threat mechanics), and our intent isn't that you have to have a party of completely balanced roles to be successful... but our roles do say a lot about your capabilities, and we intend there to be synergies in a mixed party.

A player in PFO can switch fairly quickly to a different role... if she's a many-year veteran who's maxed multiple roles or someone who's deliberately slowed advancement in one role to be mid-level and roughly at the same strength in multiple ones. It's not instantaneous, and doing so in the field requires lugging around potentially a lot of extra gear (and the stuff you're not currently wearing can't be threaded). It's far more likely that this will, when used, be to adapt with forewarning to a changing tactical landscape (e.g., "that looks like a lot of undead, maybe we should field an extra cleric"), rather than to make one guy feel like his role isn't useful because someone else can cover it as needed and then go back to her normal role.

Pursuing multiple roles is a good thing to do early to figure out what you like doing (as the other panelists mentioned), and veterans will eventually have access to a lot of options, but in the moment, if you're not slotted as a pure role, it's because you've found something you feel is a synergistic multiclass useful enough to forego a dedication bonus. And even in that case, party members dedicated to the individual roles that make up your build should still be able to shine with the capabilities you've forgone.

You can absolutely have taunting in pvp... If you base and balance pvp by group and not 1v1 or 2v2. Everquest 2 did this and it was fantastic pvp...

So no healer roles then ?

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

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ShabuShabu wrote:

You can absolutely have taunting in pvp... If you base and balance pvp by group and not 1v1 or 2v2. Everquest 2 did this and it was fantastic pvp...

So no healer roles then ?

Mind describing how it worked in EQ2, rather than assuming everyone knows?

Anyway...
Seems to me that a PvP 'taunt' could work by applying a vulnerability debuff on the target which only works when they have someone else targeted. The vulnerability effect gives attack/damage/other bonuses to the one who applied the taunt. Let it stack up to a point, so the longer they try ignoring the taunter, the worse it gets. Once they have the taunter targeted in return, the debuff effect doesn't apply. It doesn't go away immediately, so people can't simply tab around to clear it. Like most debuffs, it'll fade off over time, or immediately if the taunter is defeated. There should probably be a way for the target to see who has applied taunts to them, and to what degree, since the whole point is to encourage them to deal with the characters using it. This sort of effect could even be used to let mobs taunt, since it is based on encouraging a change in behaviour rather than trying to control it.

Goblin Squad Member

Sounds good. To avoid that the taunter quickly debuffs a whole group, he should only be allowed to have one target(or two, depending on skill) taunt-debuffed at the same time. The buff should also have to be short-term.

You could even make it so, that if other players attack the taunted character, his taunt-debuff will wear of even quicker, depending on the amount of damage he is taking. To balance it out a bit.

CEO, Goblinworks

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The Repopulation rep said in his response "nobody knows what the Repopulation is". I wanted to give him a chance to fix that.

I think the WildStar rep took a minute to realize I wasn't disparaging his game.

Goblin Squad Member

A much better panel than sometimes happens.

Diversity of views, approaches is good imo. I think the devs put the effort in and the questioners asked on useful topics.

Could be a promising future: Helps there were some interesting titles that differ from each other being represented.

Think Ryan added a lot of energy to the panel and oc very informative atst.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
Audience member wrote:

I feel that the identity of classes is being lost. I mean, when I used to play in a group I was the cleric, I was the healer and I wanted to be THE healer. And now every class can heal, you click a button and change your talent spec and the tank's the healer now. I think that's a very bad thing because I don't feel like I'm contributing anything to the group.

Do you feel the same way?

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Yes.
:)

Ryan's answer to the nonsensical question was disconnected from the direction he claims PFO is moving in.

Think about the possible solutions for the questioner:

1. Deal with multi classing / no class arch types
2. Get the Devs to take away everyone else's choice to multi class
3. Become such a great healer that no one else believes they need anyone but you
4. Leave the game for one that has strictly limited class archetypes.

The questioner seemed incapable of 1 or 3. The game Devs won't take away everyone else's freedom for the whining of just one person. So that leaves 4 as his obvious solution, which makes his question nonsense, because he should know on his own that is his best choice.

Lol it just makes me laugh at his last quote "I think that's a very bad thing because I don't feel like I'm contributing anything to the group." They (his group) probably feel he is useless dead weight as well.

I think Ryan answered the other question, the sensical one rather than asserting agreement with the subjective evaluation part. That is, Ryan agreed that it is a bad thing for a player to feel he isn't contributing to the group.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
I think Ryan answered the other question, the sensical one rather than asserting agreement with the subjective evaluation part. That is, Ryan agreed that it is a bad thing for a player to feel he isn't contributing to the group.

That's what I got from viewing the panel also. I think the question was mainly directed at GW2 where there is no dedicated healer class, though the irony is that some of the classes there can be built incredibly well for party based healing. A first glance though, it does seem odd that a mage or ranger (in the traditional sense) would make a great healer.

Goblin Squad Member

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Bluddwolf wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
They (his group) probably feel he is useless dead weight as well.
Why is it so easy for you to insult people? I would genuinely feel bad about myself if I'd said something like that, yet it seems incredibly easy for you.

I found it easy in his case because he is not a team player and his question was based in selfishness. His real desire in that question was to get at least one Dev to affirm that players should not have choices and that the Trinity is the best way to go. Most of all his complaint was that other players in his group were healing themselves, and he had a problem with that.

It just harkened back to my last days in WoW when I could not get into a raid group as a dual wield warrior because I was more dps oriented and I did not have taunt trained. Players telling other players how they should play or how they should be spec'ed out just rubs me the wrong way.

It is natural and expected for people to evaluate others based on personal values, but those personal values don't always evaluate 'true'. 'Not a team player' can describe 'independent'. 'Team player' can describe 'codependent'. Those who call others 'selfish' are often also themselves self-centric. When these conditions combine to produce non-constructive or even destructive social products (like insults) then it is time to contemplate the psychosocial nature and implications of our own behavior.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

The Repopulation rep said in his response "nobody knows what the Repopulation is". I wanted to give him a chance to fix that.

I think the WildStar rep took a minute to realize I wasn't disparaging his game.

I thought it was pretty obvious you were helping him. Ryan any comments on the cancelling of WoD? I'd have to think that was a game you guys were nervous about.

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Avari wrote:
I thought it was pretty obvious you were helping him. Ryan any comments on the cancelling of WoD? I'd have to think that was a game you guys were nervous about.

Not the same genre, so why?

Top 6 Sandbox MMos of 2014 to Look Out For

Of these: ArcheAge, Shroud of the Avatar, Elder Scrolls Online and Everquest Next are PFO's primary competition.

All are Sword and Sorcery / Fantasy genre and most importantly, all are approximately releasing around the same time! (2014 - 2015)

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
I think the WildStar rep took a minute to realize I wasn't disparaging his game.

I had to laugh a little when I heard you say "WildStar will be the last Triple A MMO Theme Park ever made" (which might not be an exact quote, but it's close enough). How many games have you said that about, now? Not that I think you're wrong - I find your analysis extremely compelling - but it's kind of become its own thing now, kind of like the way the blogs being named for song lyrics became its own thing.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

The Repopulation rep said in his response "nobody knows what the Repopulation is". I wanted to give him a chance to fix that.

I think the WildStar rep took a minute to realize I wasn't disparaging his game.

No, for me it was just the way it came off. You have to admit, Ryan, sometimes you can give the illusion that you are in your own little world.

So when the question was asked, I was semi-paying attention, I face palmed before I got what you were doing... which was allowing him the opportunity to plug his game, which happens to be a sandbox with settlement warfare of a different genre. I hit rewind and caught your delivery intent the second time around.

My thoughts were simultaneously, "Ryan HAS to know what Repop is." and "Of course Ryan and only Ryan would have no idea what Repop is."

It was a comedic moment for me, even if that was not your intent, which by the way, was very admirable of you.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Areks wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:

The Repopulation rep said in his response "nobody knows what the Repopulation is". I wanted to give him a chance to fix that.

I think the WildStar rep took a minute to realize I wasn't disparaging his game.

No, for me it was just the way it came off. You have to admit, Ryan, sometimes you can give the illusion that you are in your own little world.

So when the question was asked, I was semi-paying attention, I face palmed before I got what you were doing... which was allowing him the opportunity to plug his game, which happens to be a sandbox with settlement warfare of a different genre. I hit rewind and caught your delivery intent the second time around.

My thoughts were simultaneously, "Ryan HAS to know what Repop is." and "Of course Ryan and only Ryan would have no idea what Repop is."

It was a comedic moment for me, even if that was not your intent, which by the way, was very admirable of you.

It was high courtesy to assume ignorance to offer someone a chance to elaborate to the audience. Of course it opens up to appearing "ignorant" and not as what it actually was, an invitation.

Anyways it's good to see the panel interact "off-script" on these sorts of things.

Goblin Squad Member

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I really liked one of Ryan's first statements about offloading the AI processing to a server farm that can be constantly running to determine what the NPCs are doing even while there are no players in the area.

I'd really love to see that taken one step further and allow the players to provide some of that by scripting what their characters are doing even while they're not logged in. I don't expect that in PFO, but it would please me if the industry moved in that direction.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
I really liked one of Ryan's first statements about offloading the AI processing to a server farm that can be constantly running to determine what the NPCs are doing even while there are no players in the area.

Ultima Online originally wanted t do something like that, but it became too unwieldy to have the server playing with itself when no players were there to care. It still seems weird to me, as It would likely be easier to just put a number of possible status changes on a list and randomly determine which happened the next time the server loads that area.

For example, if it's been a week since the last time a certain hex was loaded, it might jump up to a week's worth of escalation the next time a player enters a bordering hex. Or, if on day one goblinoids came in, then on day four they were wiped out and replaced by an orc tribe, As far as the player who shows up on day seven is concerned, the goblins may as well have never been there at all, they'd just see an orc tribe with a few day's worth of escalation.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Keovar wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
I really liked one of Ryan's first statements about offloading the AI processing to a server farm that can be constantly running to determine what the NPCs are doing even while there are no players in the area.
Ultima Online originally wanted t do something like that, but it became too unwieldy to have the server playing with itself when no players were there to care. It still seems weird to me...

It's an open question how the devs might address this, but in my experience it's easier to manage software when you don't have slightly different pieces of code that do almost the same thing. I see it largely as a choice between 1) having well-defined processes for interacting with the game-world that can be used live or automated vs 2) having one section of code that's used live and another bit that's supposed to simulate everything that would have happened. I would also worry about how much "server lag" would be introduced by having the server "play through" that simulation when a player first entered a previously unoccupied hex.

In my ideal MMO, the server wouldn't know or care whether it was a scripted PC or a live PC. Likewise, other players wouldn't necessarily know if it was a scripted PC or a scripted NPC, or even if it was a live PC played by someone who had some reason to want to appear to be an NPC, etc.

Goblin Squad Member

The server-farm thing sounds good for escalations one day.

On the "mystery" question: I thought the work-around would be instanced discoveries? So EQN might do it via digging underground, PFO via finding a dungeon instance (overground or underground) temporary point reference portal on the map? Different means and different places providing different dungeons.

Goblin Squad Member

Watched the video, I liked the varerity in viewpoints, and there where a lot of subjects where it seems a "developer consensus" is emergening on the future of MMOs.


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Pax Keovar wrote:
ShabuShabu wrote:

You can absolutely have taunting in pvp... If you base and balance pvp by group and not 1v1 or 2v2. Everquest 2 did this and it was fantastic pvp...

So no healer roles then ?

Mind describing how it worked in EQ2, rather than assuming everyone knows?

Anyway...
Seems to me that a PvP 'taunt' could work by applying a vulnerability debuff on the target which only works when they have someone else targeted. The vulnerability effect gives attack/damage/other bonuses to the one who applied the taunt. Let it stack up to a point, so the longer they try ignoring the taunter, the worse it gets. Once they have the taunter targeted in return, the debuff effect doesn't apply. It doesn't go away immediately, so people can't simply tab around to clear it. Like most debuffs, it'll fade off over time, or immediately if the taunter is defeated. There should probably be a way for the target to see who has applied taunts to them, and to what degree, since the whole point is to encourage them to deal with the characters using it. This sort of effect could even be used to let mobs taunt, since it is based on encouraging a change in behaviour rather than trying to control it.

Taunts in eq2 PVP were simple. You change the target of an opponent. For example, I played a healer in eq2 pvp/raiding. Often times healers are targeted first for the obvious reasons, but my tanks could TAUNT the opposing DPS off me, to them. So your physical target would change if you got taunted off... it makes combat more interesting for sure.

What was nice about applying group dymamics to PVP and I mean real group dynamics ala the trinty is they didn't have to balance pvp for 1v1 because everyone couldn't beat everyone 1v1 and it didn't matter.

It also adds some tactical strategy around approaching pvp as a group rather than, ok everyone kill healer.

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