Arkham Owl's page

I agree that it'd be interesting certainly. Pathfinder has been my gateway to so many things over the past 10 years, from the works of H.P. Lovecraft or H.G. Wells to the wonders of history, culture, and mythology of real life places I never would've found otherwise. 2e's definitely been a mixed bag so far for me, but I will definitely be keeping a watchful eye on future developments.

It’s probably the closest region to the Inner Sea, it has explicit ties via Qadira’s history with Taldor, the Keleshite Empire and Vudra are major international players (both with colonial holdings on Garund, I believe?), yet we’ve seen almost nothing. Any books I’m missing?

Any content you’d love to see?

As Darth Game Master said, Distant Shores probably has the most detailed information for Southern Casmoran and Vudra. Strange Aeons in part details the Parchlands, which lie in Southwestern Casmoran, south of Qadira I believe? Apart from that, Iobaria is in Casmoran, and is probably the most well-detailed part of the setting outside the Inner Sea other than Tian Xia.

Darth Game Master wrote:

That's quite the exaggeration and not really accurate.

How so? They've had at least two chances now to regenerate from a chauvinist, culture-devouring despotism and rejoin humanity, and have botched it up both times. There's nothing worth hoping for out of these people, and the sooner they make way for something better, the better.

I get that this is fiction, but considering their great similarity, superficial or not, to a real-world culture that still exists today, that is such a monstrously racist and prejudiced attitude that it's clear there's no point in even engaging with you further.

They’re white people with similar coloration, a shared heritage, and the same language. What’s the issue?

As I have stated multiple times, what I have read suggests this is categorically false. But that is just my interpretation.

Secondly, scratch out the word 'white' and replace it with any other color and think about that statement again.

My point is, everywhere else the writers have tried to create distinctions between various groups, to better create more representation and diversity. Something which I have no problem with, and actually support. But in this example they're erasing distinctions that were already there and saying they were never there. Honestly, I'm kind of surprised at this reaction of utter surprise and mild condescension from many.

But I'm just one dissenting voice among a chorus of agreement, so I guess I should just keep my feelings and opinions to myself.

In the novels at least Taldans And Chelaxians were always described similar from what I read, the Chelish just favoring having paler skin.

Part of the problem with having multiple authors working on different projects using the same material. They're not always going to agree. I admittedly have not read the Pathfinder Tales novels, though they're on my 'to-read' list. The source books I have read painted a different picture, but I imagine it's pretty subjective.

Arkham Owl wrote:

I'm sorry, I do not like this change. Apart from the various groups of the Mwangi, or the people of Azlant (don't get me started on the changes to the Azlanti), the Chelish were always my favourite human ethnicity, in part because they were the one that most clearly mirrored my own, real life ethnicity. Just hand-waving away their existence, particularly during a push to better diversify and represent various groups in a more positive light, feels like saying all 'Western European' peoples are a monolith.

By that logic, Vudrani being an ethnicity is saying that all South Asian peoples are a monolith. And South Asia is much more ethnically diverse than Western Europe. Their existence was not hand waved away, they were just classified in a more broad manner. Taldans from southwestern Avistan did not all suddenly disappear and Chelaxian can still exist as an in universe term.

I guess I just always saw a much more radical difference between Chelish and Taldan than everyone else. Vudrani at least have a similar enough culturally heritage that, to an outsider, would be confusing. But (at least to me) mistaking a Taldan for a Chelaxian would be like mistaking a Norwegian man for Saudi Arabian man.

Yes, they are related in that they descend from intermingling between Azlanti refugees and other races, but I had always thought the similarities ended there.

Okay. But Cheliax still exists. And is it's own very distinct thing. Like Chelish people are going to identify as Chelish people regardless. Nexian Garundi people don't see themselves as Thuvian. They just have some shared cultural roots and a language.

It doesn't actually change the world or the characters at all.

The problem is possibly that ethnicity isn't really the same thing here as it is in real life, where it's MUCH more granular. But similar to how Hallit is probably a large number of languages with similar roots, but represented as one mega-language, they are representing a large swathe of diverse people in one mega-grouping, usually with a single associated language-group as a language.

Taldan -> Taldane speaking, Garundi -> Osiriani speaking, Keleshite* -> Keleshite speaking, Kellid -> Hallit speaking, etc.
*Keleshite are actually already detailed as several internal ethnicities bound by the shared imperial language, like Althmeri people, etc.

They just decided as game designers not social scientists to call ethnicity a mega-grouping, and nationality a separate thing.

Chelish people are still a clearly defined nationality, so this doesn't change anything for people who know things about the setting already.

What is it, exactly, that you think you lose here?

I get why they're doing it, as well as how and why it's that way. I, personally, just don't like it, and I admit that's mostly on me. I have a tendency to fixate, as I am obsessive compulsive. This kind of change just irks me. Yes, Garundi covers a broad number of categories, as does Keleshite and Mwangi etc, etc. But to me, Taldans and Chelish just don't seem like they fit in the same one. Yes, they share azlanti heritage, and a common imperialist attitude, but beyond that they never seemed similar at all. Certainly not similar enough to essentially be the same thing. It's just another change on a long list of changes that, to me, seem unnecessary. But I am not the designer of the game. Other people have different priorities that are different from mine. To me, it just seems contrary to the stated direction. Yes they're these broad categories, but so much effort in recent years has gone into making distinctions and categories with categories, or showing that the whole grouping is arbitrary to begin with. To have all that, then to invent a new arbitrary category and shoe-horn two completely different things into it? It'd be like presenting British and Italians as two separate things, and then later on retroactively declaring that all British people are actually Italian and always have been.

I'm not demanding they change it to cater specifically to me. That'd be ridiculous. It's just a choice I wouldn't have made, that, along with others, will affect my choices going forward in terms of shopping habits, and most certainly won't change how I present the world at my personal gaming table.

But, to each their own, I guess. It's clearly not an issue for anyone else, and I may not like that, but people are more than allowed to like things I don't.

I'm sorry, I do not like this change. Apart from the various groups of the Mwangi, or the people of Azlant (don't get me started on the changes to the Azlanti), the Chelish were always my favourite human ethnicity, in part because they were the one that most clearly mirrored my own, real life ethnicity. Just hand-waving away their existence, particularly during a push to better diversify and represent various groups in a more positive light, feels like saying all 'Western European' peoples are a monolith.

Correct.

Chelaxians still exist as a nationality. They are not an ethnicity.

The switch to 2nd edition was a chance for us to not only adjust this, but to also present the Nidalese as an ancestry which should have been the case from the very start.

See, I find this very confusing. I like the Nidalese bit, but in every book I've read on the setting, the Chelish and the Taldans weren't just culturally different, but physically different too. The taldans I thought were olive skinned with brown hair and almond shaped eyes often of amber colour, while the chelish were pale-skinned with straight-black or red hair and very severe, straight features. Some changes in 2e are understandable, or at the very least fleshing things out, but this just seems like a confusing, unnecessary change.