Arkat's page

Would it have worked ? It is said that break enchantment can't dispel an effect that wouldn't be broke by "Dispell Magic" if the spell is above level 5. And "Flesh to stone" is a level 6 spell.

Yes, it would have worked.

There is an exception written in the Break Enchantment spell for things things that cannot be dispelled by Dispel Magic or Stone to Flesh.

Since a person/animal who/which is turned to stone can be turned back into flesh by Stone to Flesh, it fits the exception noted in the Break Enchantment spell.

Most Animals with few or no powers seem to have a +3 level equivalent.

Example: A Roc (CR 9) appears to have a effective cohort level of 12.

What do you think a Thunderbird's (CR 11) effective cohort level would be?

A Thunderbird has 14 HD and is a Magical Beast with a few magic powers.

A Roc has 16 HD and is an Animal with no magic powers.

Both have roughly equivalent attacks with roughly equivalent physical damage.

A Kirin (Magical Beast) is normally a CR 7 but it's ECL is 13. The difference of 6 can be explained by the fact it's highly intelligent and can cast spells from the Sorc and Cleric spell lists. It also has a cone of fire special attack and has several spell-like abilities.

A Griffon (Magical Beast) is normally a CR 4 but its ECL is 8. The difference of 4 can be explained by the fact it is intelligent (although not very) and has a couple of special attacks (pounce, rake).

A Dragonne (Magical Beast) is normally a CR 7 but it's ECL is 10. The difference of 3 can be explained by it's two special attacks (roar, pounce) and the fact it's intelligent (but not very).

The Thunderbird is intelligent (average) and has one special attack (Thunderbolt) and one spell-like ability (Control Weather). It has an ability that is useful only in certain situations, like when weather affects vision. Its Storm Aura is a nice ability, but I see it rarely having a major effect in in-game situations.

I think I'd give it an ECL of 15 or 16. That's a +4 or +5 difference (I'm leaning towards +4).

Again, what do you guys think a Thunderbird's ECL should be?

Arkat wrote:

I agree wholeheartedly with James that Aroden the god is dead.

[aroden voice] thats right! dead serious about going to itchy and scratchy land!

Lol!

You mean they forgot to include details of yet another vaunted and undoubtedly useful "system"??

Say it isn't so!!

Arkat wrote:

PM me your email address and I'll email it to you.

I am also looking for it, may I also receive one per email, please?

PM me your email address and I'll email it to you, too.

I agree wholeheartedly with James that Aroden the god is dead.

My every-other-Saturday group just started The Pact Stone Pyramid.

My character, a kobold monk, is 8th level (after finishing a series of level 1-8 adventures in January), and he's pretty awesome.

His egg was hatched by Valashinaz in Hwangott, btw. He'll be doing all the Dragon Style stuff as well as all the draconic kobold racial feats.

My every-other-Saturday group just finished Book 5 of Return of the Runelords (The City Outside of Time).

We wound up eliminating Belamarius from Golarion completely. Her shade in the Eye of Jealousy nearly wiped us out, or, rather, my Mystic Theurge nearly wiped us out.

Anyway, we survived the shade encounter and threw Belimarius' Invidious Halberd into her Runewell of Envy, which destroyed her runewell and got Crystilan back into normal time.

As an aside, my character took her 25,000 GP diamond and got a scroll of Wish made in Absalom. He then teleported to the library of the former Temple of the Peacock Spirit (Book 4) and wished Alaria (what he named the Librarian when she asked if she had a name) to be a real woman instead of the shadow-stuff human she was.

He had been working with her whenever he had the chance, doing research mostly, so she essentially "imprinted" on him and changed her alignment to Lawful Neutral, while he changed his alignment from True Neutral to Lawful Neutral, also.

Alaria is now my character's cohort. She will temporarily keep watch over the former Peacock Spirit temple and take in my character's followers.

Not sure what my Mystic Theurge is going to do with the temple and his followers, but I'm thinking that changing the temple into a College of Magic (dedicated to the concept of Magic itself, not to any one particular god) and his followers could all be students that he and Alaria could teach after the AP is over.

Arkat wrote:

That also sounds like that one human guy who was some sort of maintenance worker who was exposed to some weird machine energies and was granted instant deityhood of some sort. His weapon is a big wrench of some kind. I can't think of his name at the moment, but you get the idea.

That would be Benekander, one of the immortals from the spaceship the Beagle that landed in Blackmoor in the Mystara setting. I loved me some Mystara.

Cheers!

Yes, that's the guy. Thanks!

Now, having said all that (above) and thinking about it some more, I could see Abrogail II gathering several warshards and then using them in some way to steal the deific power from one of the evil demipowers (remember Szuriel is riding around in Molthune stirring up trouble) to become an immortal demigoddess.

I don't know if she'd take Szuriel's place as a new Horseman (Horsewoman) of the Apocalypse or not, but the opportunity for Abby to act and take Szuriel's immortality just seems too good to pass up.

So, I'm quite a bit out of the loop so if someone can clue me in by answering the folllowing question I'd appreciate it immensely: Who won the Hellfire Crisis?

Did Andoran lose to Cheliax's devilry? Or did Cheliax finally finally face the wrath of a nation that loves freedom?

Go here to see at least some speculation as to what happenes:

https://paizo.com/community/forums/pathfinder/adventurePath/hellsDestiny

She could always use a warshard, we have had 4 adventures now where the evil guys have gone "i am gonna use this to awaken some evil/ascend/change the world" so if she needs divinity she could have it. At the very least level wise she should be more that 20 if she is the final foe for the AP because to put into context level 20 pcs were able to defeat the final villain of Spore War and while she need not be that powerful yet she is definitely gonna be in that level 20 range.

That sounds too similar to Casandalee's ascension. Find a magic widget (in Casandalee's case, an advanced computer) and become a god. That also sounds like that one human guy who was some sort of maintenance worker who was exposed to some weird machine energies and was granted instant deityhood of some sort. His weapon is a big wrench of some kind. I can't think of his name at the moment, but you get the idea.

Anyway, instant ascension by a widget, computer, or weird energies has already been done. And for Golarion, it's been done in the form of the Starstone. I would hate to see it done again by some strange piece of metal that fell from the sky.

Sure, a warshard could very well grant power (and quite a bit I might add), but it should not cause ascension by itself.

It was speculated in Operation Hellmouth that the Dragon in story could use a warshard to "age up" immediately to Great Wyrm (or whatever the PF2 version is) status. I don't know if a warshard could do that or not, but the characters in the book seemed to be convinced that it could.

That's the kind of power I could see a warshard granting, not making a new god. If that were the case, Gorum's armor could spawn MANY new gods. That would be ridiculous.

Abrogail II really isn't all that accomplished.

Last I checked, she was a Sorc16/Aristocrat2 and sitting on a throne for 17 years. What has she done that would make her worthy of becoming a demigoddess?

If you suggest that maybe she does something REALLY diabolical in the Hell's Destiny AP, I would answer by pointing out that that doesn't sound like a good result for the players. That's the kind of thing players are supposed to prevent.

It being Paizo, it's entirely possible that, as a nigh-all-powerful, irredeemably evil FEMALE character, she redeems herself and becomes a good guy [Sorshen, Nocticula, Arazni].

Which is why I don't think she gets redeemed.

It's been done before...several times.

She either needs to go away and never come back or she needs to stay evil and continue being a thorn in the side of the Inner Sea region.

I want the same thing I want out of every Lost Omens book: a definitive map.

Yes, detailed maps are ALWAYS appreciated!

Ye would likely want to check out Nidal, Land of Shadows book for Pathfinder 1e

This is an *excellent* sourcebook.

Maybe if Abrogail or her generals get captured we will see like a trial performed in Andoran, now that is a crazy Module plot hook where you are a group of Asmodean or Norgorborites lawyers trying to prove the innocence of an obvious guilty party and things devolve into combat (as they usually do)

I suspect Abrogail II's attorney would be someone with a little more experience than some mere mortal Chelaxian or Nidalese barrister.

I doubt it would be the Big A, but that would be an AMAZING event to have the Prince of Hell on Golarion to defend, perhaps his favorite mortal.

In such a scenario, the real challenge, for the PCs, anyway, would not be to convict her, but perhaps to work out a deal with the hellish barrister (even if it wasn't the Big A himself) where the Thrunes were removed from power and exiled to another world, perhaps?

There is precedent for PCs to find loopholes in hellish contracts (I'm looking at you, Hell's Rebels), after all. Maybe the PCs find one in the Thrune contract with the Big A?

Oh, the spectacle that would be!

Anyone care to add their two cents about where the two major combatants (Andoran and Cheliax) might wind up after the war is over?

Arkat wrote:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

. . . They did that. They did exactly that. You just don't like their choices.

They did?

That's news to me. Got a link?

To the best of my knowledge, they haven't publicly stated that they've taken a specific table's "interesting incidents or results", but they have picked interesting incidents or results of the AP to canonize.

This would explain my ignorance.

I'll bet some other folks were not aware of these things, either.

Thanks.

Arkat wrote:

VerBeeker wrote:

Are…. You being facetious?

Cause *gestures at how 2E began*

Sorry, but I'm not a PF1 to PF2 historian.

I still don't know why they had to change PF1. All I know is that they did.

I do understand the PF2 Remaster motivation, though.

Pathfinder 2e treated every single Pathfinder 1e Adventure Path as each having been resolved by a different successful party of adventurers. The aftereffects of all of them have been canonized and worked into the lore of the setting going forward - as have many Pathfinder Society plotlines and several 2e Adventure Paths.

Casandalee is a goddess in 2e because someone canonically played through Iron Gods. Ravounel is a free nation in 2e because someone canonically played through Hell's Rebels. The Gorilla King of Usaro was slain between editions because that was an option in Serpent's Skull. From 2e, Age of Ashes saw the players lay the groundwork for Katapesh's eventual outlaw of slavery in Lost Omens: Firebrands, while Night of the Grey Death fundamentally altered Galt as a nation after its release.

I was aware of none of this.

Are…. You being facetious?

Cause *gestures at how 2E began*

Sorry, but I'm not a PF1 to PF2 historian.

I still don't know why they had to change PF1. All I know is that they did.

I do understand the PF2 Remaster motivation, though.

. . . They did that. They did exactly that. You just don't like their choices.

They did?

That's news to me. Got a link?

Arkat -- It sounds like you made the right choice. If you're not sure though, I'd suggest reaching out to the other players / GM and ask if they're okay with the problematic player and discuss with them why you backed out of the game.

Thank you for the suggestion.

For a little more background, I sent an email out to all players and the GM of the Ironfang game and apologized for my abrupt exit from the game several months ago. I explained what my problems, with specificity, were with how the GM ran the game. I was angry at the time I dropped out of Foundry, but I wrote the email the next day after I had calmed down. It was even-keeled and bereft of emotional conclusions/accusations.

I only had one direct response from a player who agreed with a few of my assessments. The rest never responded or, as far as I know, discussed what happened in the group in Discord or anywhere else. I have kept my mouth shut about the incident since then except for the last three of my posts in this thread and a brief exchange between my best friend (the GM for the Vikings game) regarding the other GM's antisemitic remark.

At this point, I don't think it would be helpful to continue such a discussion or start a new one with the group. If I do, I run the danger of making the games "all about me" and I definitely don't want to do that. My ego isn't that big.

If they want to keep on doing what they're doing, fine. I'm not the most important person in the world, and I can survive not playing in their game even though not playing with my long-term friends saddens me.

Trying to incorporate the individual events of people’s campaigns into the setting overall can’t work unless you’re willing to split the timeline, because everyone’s adventures are going to go differently depending on the group. Even if you survey people it’ll lead to the same problem as anyone who had a different outcome will feel left out.

Nobody suggested working every table's experiences into the canon.

Paizo need only pick a few interesting incidents or results to incorporate into the canon to achieve what I suggested...that what players do can matter.

It also runs the risk of being very disconnected from the established lore - like your suggestion of a new Hellknight order led by an incredibly powerful Hellknight as an outcome of Hell's Vengeance. Unless there's something I've not heard of, that is fully disconnected from the AP.

1. At the end of Hell's Vengeance, the PCs are 18th level. It's pretty clear that there was a VERY good chance that at most tables that ran the AP, at least one character being played by a player was a Hellknight.

2. The AP specifically anticipates that a Hellknight PC would either take up leadership of a defunct Hellknight order or establish a new order.

See "Hellknight Ambitions" on page 71 of Hell Comes to Westcrown.

Such an order run by a PC Hellknight is in NO WAY disconnected from the AP.

What was that spire that the early runelord, Gimmel, constructed so he could look at the Oliphaunt of Janderlay in the eyes when he summoned it called?

I imagine that's quite tall.

EDIT: The spire was called Spindlehorn. Not sure exactly how tall it was, though. The Pathfinder Wiki says, "Thousands of feet in height, it rises from the shores of the Storval Deep, contradicting all natural laws of architecture and engineering."

It's always a problem applying real-world standards to fantastic/fictional settings. It's also always problematic to apply present day standards to events that happened hundreds, maybe thousands, of years ago.

If you're triggered by FRPG settings and events, perhaps whatever game that caused the trigger isn't for you.

I suppose one of your options here is to make an FRPG based on a real land or country here on Earth and incorporate real-world/modern sensibilities into it.

That sounds fun.

They look at the forums on a regular basis to gather info on what the player base is thinking. Several staff are also active on Reddit looking at that as well.

That's feedback. The forums are good places to leave feedback.

I'm not talking about feedback.

Arkat wrote:

If Paizo were really customer-focused, it seems to me they would occasionally gather some input on how things turned out when their customers played the APs and incorporate some of that into the lore.

Running surveys is expensive and unreliable, far simpler to anticipate and respond to market signals.

I wasn't suggesting a "survey."

If Paizo just created a specific email address and asked for folks to send them some interesting stories about an event in an AP, I'm sure they would get much more useful information than they might get from a card with a few check-boxes or a blank line or two with enough room for only one or two 14 word sentences on it.

The market aka customer base decides in the end.

Do they, though?

If Paizo were really customer-focused, it seems to me they would occasionally gather some input on how things turned out when their customers played the APs and incorporate some of that into the lore.

It would sure make some customers feel like their characters and accomplishments mattered in the overall Golarion story.

An example might be some of the events (including the ending) of the Hell's Vengeance AP.

I'll bet in most groups, the PCs wound up killing Grand Marshall Cansellarion. That's boring because that the AP is pushing the PCs to do.

The more interesting thing (and the AP kind of makes allowances for, but only cursorily) is having one of the PCs convert her to an AntiPaladin Tyrant of Asmodeus.

What kind of an effect, if any, might that have on the war with Andoran?

In that same vein, what if one of the PCs (an AntiPaladin with a very high Charisma, let's say) started their own Hellknight order with the blessing of Abrogail II as a reward for beating back the Glorious Reclamation?

Would a Hellknight order (if it were large enough) that would be incredibly loyal to the Infernal Majestrix have a real effect on the war maybe?

This new order may or may not tip the balance in either direction, but to at least be mentioned and be an official part of Golarion history/canon would sure be a mice present to the gaming group that played out those events in the AP.

Paizo could just ask for notes from their customers' gaming groups and find some ways to incorporate some of their games' noteworthy events into a future AP or Lost Omens lore product.

Respect your customers. Validate some of the results of their games.

I guarantee we'd all appreciate that.

Looks like I've quit my Sunday night game for the foreseeable future.

For two reasons:

1. In my last post above, I mentioned I was looking forward to a much better GM's Vikings game. Unfortunately, he has added two additional players which, if I played, would have made it 7 players and 1 GM. Sorry, but that's too many players especially because we play via Foundry these days. Too many players means too much time between turns which mean I get up, walk away from the table and find other things to do like clean the house or other not real important things. I just hate sitting at the table with nothing to do but wait until it's my turn again. I was going to try to play anyway, but something else happened...

2. The GM of the Ironfang game (also mentioned above) made a terribly antisemitic remark in the Discord server we use. I had barely been able to tolerate him for awhile (his poor GMing was only part of my problem with him), but this particular injection of politics in what has traditionally (40 years or so) been a politics-free group of folks just pushed me over the edge.

I cannot play with this person, especially when I'm possibly going to be bored too much of the time for my tastes.

I still play the every other Saturday night game with and entirely different group of friends, so there's that, at least.

I see you've been posting on the Paizo Forums for over 16 years. If you have posted bad links in the past, I suspect you would have been banned.

I will risk downloading and opening your file.

All the spoilery content about Nidal is making me wish we had an AP set there. that sounds like juicy juicy story seeds :D

Yes!

I'd absolutely jump at a chance (remote as it is) to work with Liane Merciel and write an AP with her.

Love, love, love Nidal. SO much potential there!

And it doesn't HAVE to be icky (Velstrac nastiness) or feature explicit torture, either.

So lets use the example of a Chelixian noble family. they could name a son Asmodoros or gift of of Asmodeus. or perhaps they decide to name a son after one of the other divinities in Hell's hirearchy. So instead he is named Furcas after the infernal duke of the same name.

That explains Scut Farkas from "A Christmas Story."

I'm pretty sure that Asmodeus does not own every soul of someone who lives in Cheliax.

Never said he did. Cheliax as a nation doesn't necessarily mean all the individual people in the nation.

Whatever it means, Asmodeus was happy to get it. I'm guessing he'll want to keep it, too.

I would think that Asmodeus would be more interested in "bending Andoran towards tyranny" (as is common with democratic states in wartime) than "preserving any particular political situation in Cheliax."

Which is to say, he probably wins either way here, which is generally how "deals with the devil" go down. If Cheliax is thoroughly thrashed in war, he can just point to "you should have asked for more from Hell, our prices are reasonable."

Bending Andoran toward tyranny may not get him any souls, at least not through contractual means.

He's already got the Thrunes and Chelliax.

As they say, "A bird in hand is worth two in the bush."

Arkat wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Asmodeus has irons in significantly more fires than Cheliax. He's already guaranteed to receive the souls of much of the Chellish aristocracy, what else does he want from Cheliax honestly?

Like a bunch of nobles who explicitly worship Asmodeus is one thing, but every politician anywhere who bends towards tyranny is serving Asmodeus ultimately.

Remember, the third thing the Thrunes gave up to Asmodeus in their contract was "the soul of Cheliax."

Whatever that means. Cheliax hasn't got a genius loci as far as anyone knows; the only fellow who tried to become such 1) tried after Abrogail concluded that agreement and 2) failed rather badly.

Here's why House Thrune is called the Thrice Damned House of Thrune:

The First damning happened when Abrogail I damned herself.

The Second damning happned when Abrogail I damned her entire family. (FYI, future Thrunes could avoid this damning if they disavowed any House Thrune benefits from Hell they would receive as long as they did it before they entered adulthood, IIRC).

The Third damning happened when Abrogail II contracted Cheliax's "soul" away to the big A. What exactly that means isn't clear, but Asmodeus agreed to it, so he must have seen value in it, whatever it is.

He'll want to keep it or get it back.

Asmodeus has irons in significantly more fires than Cheliax. He's already guaranteed to receive the souls of much of the Chellish aristocracy, what else does he want from Cheliax honestly?

Like a bunch of nobles who explicitly worship Asmodeus is one thing, but every politician anywhere who bends towards tyranny is serving Asmodeus ultimately.

Remember, the third thing the Thrunes gave up to Asmodeus in their contract was "the soul of Cheliax."

I'd think the big A would want to either keep that or get it back if he lost it.

Arkat do you think a Hell Knight Lictor can defeat a Pit fiend 1 on 1?

I don't. How many Hell Kinght would it take to defeat a 18th level Sorcerer and an Erinys? A coup would not be easy and likely end up with a bunch of impaled hell knights.

I didn't mean to imply that a Hellknight Lictor would overthrow House Thrune.

But it's possible that the Thrunes somehow didn't hold up their end of their contract in such a way that Asmodeus decided to void it and had Abrogail killed and her soul dragged to Hell.

That might leave Gen. Gorthoklek holding the bag. Perhaps Asmodeus told the Pit Fiend to put someone else on the throne like perhaps a loyal Hellknight?

And it doesn't *have* to be any of the Lictors from "Path of the Hellknight" book. Surely there's *at least* one new order after the events from the Hell's Vengeance AP. Abrogail could easily have given permission for a new order be formed at the request of a Hellknight PC as their reward at the end of the AP.

Remember that at the end of that AP, the PCs were all at least 18th level. I'm guessing a Hellknight PC was a pretty common thing in that AP in most game tables.

And, BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if a full 18th or 19th level Anti-Paladin Hellknight could beat Gen. Gorthoklek. In fact, I'd think Asmodeus, in this case, would be happy to give a few "pointers" to such a Hellknight if it meant defeating the Pit Fiend who failed to keep the Thrunes in line and honoring their contract.

Losing the Thrunes probably put Asmodeus' grip on Cheliax in danger. This instability with Isger, Corentyn, and Andoran can't be good for the big A.

Oh, that's new. Back when I developed my ideas for it I only found limited information and an interview response that the devs wanted to avoid creating information about the test lest a bunch of players use it to create gods and have their characters become NPCs, or something like that.

I wouldn't really call it "new." The video is 7 years old.

From the video, Erik Mona calls those who pass the Test of the Starstone, "Living Gods," which, at the time, meant Demigods.

James Jacobs has since said that those who pass the test are actual gods.

I'm not sure which assertion to believe.

It may be relevant that James' assertion was made maybe a year ago on these forums. Perhaps there was some change in thinking as to what passing the Test of the Starstone actually resulted in.

I play it as becoming a Demigod (which would still allow a player to keep playing their character, albeit under limited circumstances), with the understanding that they may become full gods later.

It might depend on how they got to the prime material plane (PMP).

If they were summoned, they go back to their specific elemental plane.

If they came to the PMP of their own volition, they could very well be dead permanently.

I can't see an elemental going to Pharasma's Court to be judged.

BTW, folks who have already been judged and sent to their afterlife, don't get judged again if they're killed on the PMP.

If they're an outsider and they came to the PMP on their own and die, they're dead forever.

If they were summoned to the PMP and die, they just go straight back to their own plane.

I'd recommend the mega-dungeon Rappan Athuk from Frog God Games. It's one enormous megadungeon. It's bleak and dangerous but it's certainly the most Moiria like dungeoncrawl that I can think of.

I second this suggestion.

BTW...Don't go down the well!

I don’t think motive would be it. Consider the assassin guy that passed the test.

Additionally, the test itself is unrelated to the starstone. The impression I got from looking into it is that the starstone has no test, hence why the cathedral was built around it to test anyone that would use it.

If anyone could touch the starstone and fail to become a god, I would expect it to be that their spirit couldn’t handle the divine energy or understand the revelations.

The rest of the test is completely different. I had a plan already for that should you be interested I’ll PM you. It would rather fail if I revealed too much to players. Kinda requires them to be in the dark.

Incorrect.

Check out this YouTube video where Erik Mona gives a bunch of info on the Test of the Starstone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KcRuA3cY1E&list=WL&index=267

There is the test in the Cathedral of the Starstone itself. It is a dungeon-crawl-type thing. Erik says its purpose is to test your character "sheet."

There is also a test that you go through when you touch the Starstone itself. Erik says the purpose of that test is to test your "character."

Not gonna lie, I want to run this adventure base on the cover alone.

The artist Pindurski has a similar style to Wayne Reynoldsand for a moment I thought this was a Reynolds.

Is there any chance we can get posters of this cover without the copy/logos someday?

Here's the cover but without the text/logos from the artist's Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10162582301025541&set=pb.672925 540.-2207520000&type=3

I am actually surprised, in a good way, that there is any Devil-bound Cheliax left.

One that I hope can be the ruthless and devious bastion of Hellish power in Golarion, complete with Hellknights who stand for order no matter the cost, rather than the stupid, always losing, cartoonish evil empire we have had for so long.

A competent Hellknight lictor (think Grand Admiral Thrawn) who can assume the rule of Cheliax would make it more of a subtle threat worth taking seriously when the time comes.

An actual three dimensional character like that would be so much more interesting.

I guess the real limit here is access to better writers. Don't get me wrong, Paizo writers at good at writing adventures and James' Golarion is awesome. There just needs to be more attention paid to many of the personalities that populate the world, especially the more "complicated" ones.

Amazon is impacted by the Diamond Comics bankruptcy and does not get current Paizo books because of that. Your best bet is to buy it from Paizo directly.

Thanks. Will do.

Today was the day Amazon was to deliver my copy of Operation Hellmouth. Boy was I excited!

But this morning I received an email telling my delivery was going to be delayed due to "supply chain issues" and they asked me if I still wanted it?

They didn't even give me a new estimated delivery date.

My question is whether Paizo got their copies yet? If so, I'll cancel my Amazon order and just order from the Paizo store.

Thanks.

Lex Winters wrote:

PG is out, a concise 10 pager.

Where did you find it?

Click on that link.

The fact that Cheliax is going to stand as a *nation* after the end of the war, though maybe losing a chunk of its territory makes me think of a possibility.

What if Cheliax becomes a true fascist state in the modern sense?

Imagine this scenario: Andora has won, Abrogail is defeated, Cheliax needs a new government. Just annexing it to Andoran isn't feasible so Andoran forces elections to make Cheliax the third true democracy in the Inner Sea, the final triumph of their ideals over those of their hated rivals.

And the elections are won by a candidate that perfectly exemplifies Chelixian "virtues". The devils don't even have to interfere too much (though they still do, of course). After decades of devil-worshipping governement the vast majority of the population genuinely wants a strong man (or woman) that promises to restore order at any cost. And of course revanchist sentiment towards Andoran might play a part in that, since i doubt most citizens would be very sympathetic to "liberators" that still invaded their country.

This would fit in perfectly with the running theme of modernization that's been present in recent Lost Omens books, still provide a way to for Abrogail to be present if they want to keep her as a villain (maybe as a power behind the scene, officially a prisoner but unofficially influencing the newly elected governement), keep Cheliax in place as the nation where devils influence the government (now with even MORE bureocracy) and put Andoran in a very interesting moral quandary.

It's one thing for a democracy to oppose an evil empire. That's ethically easy. But how do you oppose an evil democracy where the "will of the people" genuinely leads to authoritarian outcomes?

Interesting.

See this Grand Admiral Thrawn video on YouTube. It definitely has similar vibes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9jiQBFp7Ik

A number of new books just popped up in the store, including Lost Omens: Cheliax, Infernal Inheritance for October.

Product Description wrote:

As the Hellfire Crisis comes to an end, the powers that be must reckon with a changed world. Within the Infernal Inheritance dwell scheming nobles, remnants of ancient empires, and Hellish dangers.

In this comprehensive regional gazetteer, readers will be able to explore:

Cheliax, a devil-bound nation transformed by war;
Corentyn, a naval power establishing its militaristic and economical might;
Isger, a recently liberated nation discovering its forgotten past;
Nidal, a nation wreathed in shadow and bound to a wicked god;
Ravounel, a former Chelaxian hold that is seeking its own place in the world;
Scorchhome, a nation for goblins and other outcasts.
Each entry within this gazetteer includes the history, culture, and current events of the region, as well as a major city to include in a variety adventures. The book also includes new character options and a fold-out poster map!

Seems Corentyn is due to carve off a chunk of western Cheliax and become its own nation by the end of Hell's Destiny.

Looks like it has been removed from the Paizo Store.

I'm thinking it gives away the ending of the Hellbreakers AP at least somewhat.

If by the end of the AP Cheliax was going to fall, putting out a brand new sourcebook with that name would make no sense.