Harsk

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Thank you all for taking the time to share with me your wise counsel and putting the issue of high level saves in perspective. This is why this community is so awesome, generous people like you all who are willing to take the time to give excellent information.

The take away I am getting from you all is that I need to be more selective in the spells I choose, be accepting that most spells will not work except that 5-25% chance they do, and remember to pump the spell caster NPC up with metamagic feats and spell penetration and spell focus with good attribute points. Many of you also noted that the enemy may only last a few rounds so blast fast and hard.

I also wanted to make a correction. I realize the way I initially reported the save scores it implied they were in order for each character, which is incorrect. I actually listed for each save type the lowest to highest scores. The Paladin actually is Fort 25, Ref 16, Will 19. The wizard is Fort 9, Ref 12, and Will 15. The rest are in between.

Thanks again and may your critical hits outnumber your critical fails....wait, I guess if they do then you are using a bad dice....never mind.


I appreciate all of the great and thoughtful comments. My question is the save DC for a spell is 10 + spell level + relevant ability so most spells below 7 level are basically useless against them. Is that part of the point creep that occurs in high level games?


I am a DM running Shackled City and we are near the end of the story, players 18 level. I noticed my players have insanely high save rolls which make spells against them useless. For example my Paladin has Fort +25, Ref 16, and Will 19. Fort saves of the six players are 9, 12, 13,14,16,25. The Ref is 12,12,13,14,16,23. And Will is 13,15,18,18,19,20! Characters are cleric, druid, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, paladin. No dual classes. My question is how do I make spells effective against these amazing save bonuses?

Any advice is welcome. Thanks


Imam running a modified version of the Shackled City epic campaign where the heroes are protecting a small village from being attacked by hordes of creatures led by a Demon Glabrezu. The demon is bound to the material plane until it can destroy the village. The heroes were given a manacle that has Dimension Anchor cast on it with the idea that they have place it on one of his small arms to prevent his teleporting away. Question - how would you officiate this action? My thought is it would be a CMB vs CMD roll but since they are only slapping on an oversized bracelet I would give them a +4 or so circumstance bonus since there is enough danger getting close to the creature as it is. The heroes are around level 13 and their CMBs are in the 10-15 range or so. Demon CMD is 34.

Thoughts or critiques of my modification of the mechanics?

Thanks for taking the time to read this and offering your wisdom.


If you are more interested in making your own scenarios than using pre-made modules, or kit bashing modules with your own side quests, i would recommend reading The Lazy GM (google it). It is a $6 eBook that has great advice on how to create instant bond between all the characters in the party BEFORE the game starts, how to devise an adventure on the fly using his step by step process, etc. It is very useful if you are wishing to run your own home-brew adventures or campaigns or one night encounters.

Welcome the hobby and remember the #1 rule - Have fun!


Thank you all for the very sage and thoughtful advice. You all have convinced me that the Paladin stumbled at most and should not lose his powers for the digression. He will be visited by his ancient elders (he is a Paladin not associated with a specific deity but instead is dedicated to the code of his clan's original patriarch) and maybe they will ask for atonement in some form.

I appreciate Sehnder's approach of applying it directly to the Paladin's code which puts it in the Paladin's perspective and not the GM's. That helped a lot.

Wraithstrike's reminder that GMs know the truth and the players' actions are based on incomplete knowledge is always something that I need to keep in mind as well.


spoiler alert- this is from Shackled City module:

OK, so a party of chaotic good players + paladin are hired by an old sickened man to find his son and bring him back to the father. The father became estranged from all three of his sons. When his wife died, she placed a curse on the old man until he found his sons and repaired his relationships with his sons. The old man told the group he has found 2 of his 3 sons and offered the group treasure in exchange of finding his last son and returning him to his father.

The party fight their way through an underground Kuo-Toan lair and find the son, who has taken on a God-like position to the Kuo-Toans, subdue him and bring him back to the city to return him to the father.

As the group arrive back into the city the magic user has decided that the son is of some mystical value and does not want to return the son to the father until he can determine exactly what the son's role is in the evil plot the magic user has imagined.

When the father arrives to collect his son the Paladin refuses to turn over the son because the magic user in his group has expressed reservations on releasing the son (the son is struck with insanity at this point and cannot be spoken to - he is just a zombie like person once they subdued him and sprung him from the kuo-Toans).

When the father asked the Paladin to give his son in return for the agreed upon treasure (which the father offered to the Paladin) the Paladin refused. Paladin tried to be elusive but the father called him out and said-
"You are being dishonorable - we had a deal. I offered you treasure on the return of my son. Here is the treasure but you will not release my son. That is kidnapping! Please give my son to me!"

Regardless of the pleading the Paladin refused to turn over the son even though he did NOT detect any evil OR that the father was lying to him. He upheld the magic users reluctance based upon only what the magic user in his party said.

My question - How much of an infraction of the Paladin code was his refusal to return a son to his father when all aspects of the deal were being fulfilled?

I am inclined to make the Paladin play without his Paladin powers until he atones for his actions. In my story the next big event is rescuing a lost Paladin so I thought it was perfect that he would have to do this part of the adventure as a plain-jane fighter until he rescued the Paladin.

Is that too harsh? What is the appropriate punishment for not fulfilling your word and acting dishonorably?

thanks for taking the time to read and respond.