Represnting, from what I am aware, the only organzied group of CE players, we have no intention on getting in on the land feud. We plan on making due by using existing LE and Neutral settlements to do buisness, but will mostly stick to the wilderness and our various hideouts.
From the way it looks, it will be impossible for a CE group to effectively own land. The combination of the fact that its been clearly stated the CE settlements will not funcion well, and the fact that all the LG kingdoms will be out for our blood anyway, we would be at a huge loss if we try to settle. So why fight it I say?
Basically, the only way to garuntee full-time PvP combat is to go CE, and thats what me and the Order of the Bloody Hand plan on doing... also we're going to take your stuff.
All contributions are welcome, and yours is valuable coming from an Assassin Company's point of view.
As a Bandit Company, we are more interested in loot over risk (killing). However, once we have reached our max reputation for accepted SADS, then there is no reason not to sack the caravan for maximum loot.
I used the figure of 80 / 20 on my interview when discussing SAD vs full PVP looting. I'm thinking the UnNamed Company will try to hold to that.
I appreciate the sentement. Don't get me wrong, I'll encourage the use of SAD amoungst my Cohorts, its simply a better way of maintaining a steady income and ensuring that merchant caravans will still be inclined to use the routes we're camping.
But, at the end of the day, using carvan guards is basically putting a sign up that says "Hey bandits! I got real good loot here! Bet you can't get it!"
Just going to throw this out there. If I got wind of a very large (read: packed with loot) caravan heading along a route, dont worry, the SAD mechanic will never come into play. Come to think of it, if I ever saw an actual guarded caravan, chances are the guards would be killed before I even consider asking the caravan leader for ransom. Why lose the element of suprise over a game mechanic?
If it's a lone merchant, sure, we'll do the whole Stand and Deliver thing, he can pay his toll and go on down the road. But if someone actually took the time to guard their caravan, there must be some pretty good loot inside. Time to make with the murder and find out what it is.
Sorry if this doesnt contribute at all to the conversation, just me thinking out loud.
The question was about those black areas, Andius. Nothing to contribute?
I attempted to clarify to the best of my ability what I believed Andius was saying.
Being wrote:
Authoritarian rhetorical tools have limited utility where that authority is unrecognized.
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.
Being wrote:
My point was, and which both you and Andius are focused on ignoring, there will be instances where it is correct to refer a matter to a GM.
How do you think that should happen, when it actually is appropriate?
I answered that in my post:
Alku Leon wrote:
The ONLY thing GW employees should be policing are things like non-sanctioned RMT, out-of-game harassment, intentional exploiting in the game mechanics, and the occasional case of really, really nasty griefing.
Right or wrong, thats my opinion. Now, if your asking about the actual in-game mechanics for submitting a petition... I'd have to imagine it would be like most every other MMO ever. Hit 'ESC' click 'Help' click 'File Petition' or something to that effect.
And finally,
Being wrote:
Yet another thought occurs to me. You are weighing in on the discussion as if speaking for a large player organization gives your thoughts a greater validity.
I in no way said I was speaking on behalf of either my CC or Andius'. How you got that impression is beyond me.
EDIT: I'm also personally done with this line of conversation.
Got to agree with Bluddwolf, please please please no scoreboards for anything. If your CC wants to keep records like that, more power to you, but please no offical scoreboards.
I think you and I have a serious difference in opinion on what constitutes griefing, but I'm not going to get into that already beaten to death conversation.
Summersnow wrote:
If thats the direction pfo wants to go in then thats fine, I'd just prefer they make it clear that outside of the in game systems (Bounty Hunting, faction hits, rep hits, death curses, etc) the players are on there own
Ryan has explained that the way he wants to run this game is by handing the players a series of systems and letting the players make the content. He's mentioned (though I can't recalle exactly which blog) that GW will handle cases of serious griefing. However, it does seem to be implied that the average, not so serious, matters of griefing are going to be left up to the in-game system to handle and the players to police. So, in essence, what you've said there is true.
If you want to know the regional economics of an given area. Perhaps there could be a skill/ability/merit badge or whatever that would allow you to someone how check prices over a given area.
I have absoluetly no idea how this would all work, or how you could impliement it without it being extremely gamey. But it would give anyone who wants to know these things the ability to know so, and those that would rather focus their efforts on something else will simply have to go off the word of those with the skill.
"What do you mean this sword is 20gp?! Thats outragous!" "Hey buddy, I know the market ok, thats my job, and 20gp is a fair price. You can look elsewhere if you want, but I know for a fact you wont find a better deal."
Think of it like the 'appraise' skill in various PnP RPGs
The regulation of prices could come form the Trade centric CCs. Each Kingdom is going to need a strong economy behind it to survive and players should be the ones ensuring this happens.
Scenario: You have a kingdom that spans 5 settlements. Each settlements economy is more or less controlled by the Traders Guild. The traders guild job is three fold.
One: It organizes all the harvesters/producers/merchants/traders of the kingdom. It makes sure the resources are going to the right people so that the items/equipment that needs to be made, gets made.
Two: It sends its people out to the other Kingdoms to get an idea of how much they are buying/selling stuff for. They make sure that their prices are competitive so they attract people to come to their Kingdom to buy stuff.
Three: They advice the Kingdom leadership on economic matters. "Sire, we are dreadfully short on raw materials due to bandit raids, we need to beef up security in these areas or risk having to import raw goods from other Kingdoms." or "We need to strike a deal with the Kingdom to the north. We need more iron then we could possibly produce to keep up with demand. Perhaps we can trade them lumber in exchance, as they seem to be lacking that".
This ensures that Crafting is NOT something you do on the side, but a full time job that you can make a character and chartered company around.
Obviously, you can choose not to be a part of said Traders Guild, but in doing so, your missing out on all that vital intelligence and organization that would make your life easier.
EDIT: The other advantage of being in the Traders Guild is that people would know that, at least in that Kingdom, if they shop at a Traders Guild ran shop, they're probably going to get a fair price for whatever they're buying.
The other thing is the people could place work orders there. You can come in, look at what items the shop offers and what their prices are. You see they make steel longswords for 20 gp each. You need 100 of them to outfit your town's guards. You create a contract saying that you will buy 100 longswords at X price if they are completed by X date. In the morning, the shop owner comes in, looks at the work contracts, and then accepts or rejects them, with a chance to send a message if they reject them like "20 gp is firm. I won't make them for 19 gp even in that quantity." or "I'm backed up right now, I won't be able to fill that contract for at least 3 days."
After the contract is accepted there is a bit of rep loss if the work order is not filled, or the costumer fails to pay within the pick-up date they specified.
@leperkhaun
I agree with the idea of limited auction houses. Though I’d rather see them run as actual auction houses. Players could set a reserve price (i.e. a minimum) but no max-buy out. Otherwise there would be no reason to have player made shops, since you’d have a one-stop building to buy everything.
Another interesting idea is having the auction houses limited in how many items can be up for auction at one time. This would most likely keep the vast majority of every-day items out and only rare or unique items would be up for auction.
leperkhaun wrote:
” 4) Settlements (provided they are advanced enough) that are part of a player nation (provided its has invested in developing it) can link its AH to other settlements in the player nation. There is an upkeep cost to linking AHs. This cost is maintained by the player nation. The cost increases based on the number of settlements in the nation wide AH. Player nation can set a "tax" on the transactions to cover this cost and to make money for the nation.
5) Player nations can link their AH system with other player nation systems. In order to do so the player nations must be in an alliance. For both player nations there is an upkeep cost to maintaining this link. You can only do this with nations that are within one step of your alignment. The more PNs you link too the higher your cost for keeping this. All PNs can place a tax on the goods being bought sold.”
This is where you and I differ. Linking auction houses in anyway discourages exploration and leads to a globally standardized economy. There would be little-to-no trade between settlements in a Kingdom as a result. Now, perhaps settlements in the same kingdom could have a sort of post-board that would show you going prices for things in other settlements, but you’d still have to travel to those settlements to acquire the items.
I really like the idea of the guards giving directions to different shops. Perhaps the PCs could even name streets, so the guard could tell you “The nearest black smith is on the corner of High Road and Temple Street.”
@LordDaeron
I understand your concern, but really, it comes down to a difference in settings. In EVE, you have high-tech telecommunications. Unless you want to write off something as a ‘magical’ post board (which I think is lame) you have no real basis for a global trade network. It makes the game far more immersive if you actually have to do some shopping around to find the best prices. Certain PCs can gain a reputation for always having the best deals, or the most diverse inventory.
I'll start this off by saying I truly believe that most video-game players make terrible video-game designers. But, here's goes nothin'.
A while back I posted the idea of player-owned shops as the basis for the in-game economy. It was a short post, and it got lost in the sea of posts that followed. I'd like to take the time to expand on this idea here.
What I'd like to see:
When I walk into a settlement, I'd love to see the streets packed full of NPC ran, but player owned shops. The mechanics behind this would be simple. If a player has the appropriate skills, he can set up (or rent) a building in a settlement and turn it into his shop. A NPC would man the shop 24/7 offering the players wares. The player could drop items into the shop, set a price, and presto, his shop is open for business. If the player so desired, he could run about the town advertising his great deals, or he could stand by the shop and offer discounts, or even haggle prices. The NPC is important because you wouldn't want a player to be screwed out of profits just because he can’t be logged in all the time. Plus, it seems most other crafting mechanics in the game are based around the idea of NPCs doing the grunt work and you are a manager of sorts.
Another very cool idea, though probably pretty far off, would be allowing players to set up shops outside the walls of settlements. Many fantasy worlds I've read about have sprawling towns that extend well past the city walls. Advantages to doing so: you wouldn't have to be officially a part of the settlement to do this. Disadvantages: you wouldn't benefit from the protection the walls offer. Perhaps your store could get looted, or simply burned down. Who knows? Just spit-balling on this one.
Foreseeable impacts to the game:
This would/could create regional economies based off resource availability. This has multiple consequences in and of itself.
First of all, it means that certain items will be cheaper in certain areas. If one area is known for having a certain resource, then it’s obvious that items made from that resource would be widely available there and probably for a cheaper price. This creates a need for traders to purchase items for cheap in one town, and cart them to a distant town to sell them for a profit.
Secondly, this also creates tension between kingdoms/landowners. History teaches us the number one reason to kill someone is over something they have, that you want. This applies doubly to governments and natural resources. Does this mean certain tracts of land will be more valuable than others? Most certainly. Is that a good thing? Hells yes! Last thing we want is for PFO to turn into universal love and peace for everyone, no fun in that.
Third. Not having a massive auction house would eliminate massive player congestion in NPC towns and give players one more reason to not hang out in NPC controlled areas. It encourages players to explore other settlements and travel to see what’s out there.
Lastly, it gives players who are interested in crafting/economy/trading a lot to work with. Prices will fluctuate, and if you can find a nice little niche market in some part of the world, you could make a pretty penny. Your shop could have a combination of self-made items, items you buy off of pass traders and items you buy from other local crafters. It also would allow for trading guilds to have a massive impact in the game. Setting player-enforced regulation on the trade of certain items. All sorts of player-content potential there. It also provides a never-ending need for caravan guards and merc CCs who want to protect these traveling traders. Last, and most importantly, it provides ample targets for the ne'er do-well looking to make a quick penny nicking some poor guys wares on the road.
Foreseeable in-game issues:
Space. I know PFO is gunna be big. I know it’s going to grow. I'm not really worried about map-size here. What I'm worried about is settlement size. How much space would 20-30 player owned shops take up? That’s not really an unreasonable number for a large settlement. This isn’t something GW has said much about, and I'm not too worried about it. It's all theory-crafting on my end.
Newbies. Players starting the game off wanting to be a salesmen of sorts would have a hard time doing it if they couldn’t quickly find a CC that would help them out. The idea of possibly allowing shops to be set up outside the city walls
That's all I got, I welcome any other ideas or issues I can’t think of. Also please don’t let this degenerate into a discussion about griefing... I'm so sick of that.
TL;DR - Regional based economies > massive auction houses.
Andius and I see eye-to-eye on a good number of issues, this being one of them. I hope he'll forgive me for speaking in his place.
The ONLY thing GW employees should be policing are things like non-sanctioned RMT, out-of-game harassment, intentional exploiting in the game mechanics, and the occasional case of really, really nasty griefing. Having GW do anything more takes away from any sort of meaningful player-made content in the game. Essentially (and I know I'm going to get crucified for saying this), if you can justify what your doing as a legitimate play-style (bandits will steal, assassins will murder, good people will be boring) there shouldn't be a need for Dev involvement. I foresee GW's in-game support spending most of its time, especially in the early days, explaining to be people, "yes that bandit killed you, yes he took your stuff, no we're not going to do anything about it. Remember to travel in groups and be prepared for that sort of thing".
EDIT: Anduis probably wouldn't say that good people are boring, but like I said, we see eye-to-eye on a lot of issues... but that one we differ on.
Yes, but to what extend we dont know yet. When the survey/fulfillment system is implemented, there will be options to buy/upgrade things. The details on that though have yet to be released
I really like the balance scale concept... one thing you could add is diminishing returns to the alignment shift.
Example:
Alku goes off and heniously murders some poor bloke for no good reason. The first time this happens, big old boost to the evil/chaotic side. However, after a long standing career of this, the same action causes a significant amount less alignment shift.
It's kind of the idea behind White Wolf's morality system. A certain action only really carries weight the first few times you do it, after that it simply becomes common place.
This could also work in reverse. Say one day, after countless murders, Alku has a change of heart (not gunna happen) and decides he's done with the evil life. So he goes out and does whatever this game deems a 'good' act. The first time he does it, it swings him pretty hard towards good, but after a while, the diminishing returns kick in and it gets harder and harder for him to reach the actual 'Good side of the scale' (he'd end up spending a long time in Neutral making up for all the terrible crap he did).
Same would go for the Good side, a LG good paladin, who's been all good and rightous his whole life, murders someone and random.. bam, big old alignment hit. Maybe not enough to cause him to switch alignments, but enough that he'll really think about the next time he does it.
Basically this would make it so someone who spends a career of evil would take even longer to swap sides. Same the other way around.
I know, I didn't read probably 70% of the responses to this mega-thread, I find most of the arguments to be repetitive. However, I really wanted to say something after I read the blog entry. It really is my hope that the Good community realizes the importance of also having a thriving evil counter-part.
@Quandary
I just tried to type out like... 3 different replies, but none of them made much sense. So I'll ask a question, how do you expect a Lawful Evil person to maintain both a high reputation, and remain evil? I am honestly not trying to be a jerk, really, I just cant seem to explain myself today :)
So I'll start off by saying this thread is a monster and I did not read every single response, my apologies if I'm repeating something someone else already mentioned.
Ryan Dancey wrote:
Characters with low reputations may also find they're not wanted in certain places. Settlements can set a minimum reputation to enter the city; players who don't meet the requirement are warned, and become trespassers if they continue to enter.
This makes sense, so long as it can work both ways. If I were an evil character running a settlement, I'd probably want to set a maximum reputation for people entering my city, don't want those do-gooders mucking about in my town.
Ryan Dancey wrote:
Settlements may also be selective about permitting players with low reputations to join, since maintaining a high minimum settlement reputation is key to building several prestigious and useful structures.
This is absolute BS. Essentially, if you're trying to run an Evil settlement (where naturally, low reputation characters are going to hang out) you will never be able to get or utilize the most useful structures available. Like someone being evil automatically makes you bad at city planning.
I perfectly understand that being evil is going to be a significantly harder way of playing the game. I embrace that. But I also see that being a Lawful-Evil character is going to be pert near impossible based on how the whole alignment system is panning out. This means LE settlements are going to be nigh impossible to establish. Since Lawful seems to be the only way to make a decent city, your going to have an extremely disproportionate amount of LG Kingdoms, and therefore, NO LE kingdoms since they will be severely outnumbered and prime targets for the LG kingdoms. PvP will turn into nothing but LG wargames and arena fights since Evil characters will have no where to turn or live. This is going beyond making the game difficult for Evil players, its starting to look like it will be damn impossible.
LG players!!! You dont want this to happen!! How much fun is this game going to be if there aren't bad-guys like me to fight against? If there is no evil kingdom on the other side of the river to marshal your armies against, to protect the good people of the River Kingdoms against? What is an RPG with out antagonists??
Sorry for the vent, but I had to get it off my chest.
TL;DR - If things keep going as they are, I predict a complete lack of evil players, and therefore, no significant player-generated content.
Shadow-Haven is attempting to build a community that will cater to the Evil aligned side of the player base. You may want to check out their thread.
A few of the Evil chartered companies seem to have ideas of gaining land, but many dont. As it stands, it looks like banditry is the way to go if you want to do the whole Evil thing. My group, The Bloody Hand, has no intention of holding any land, we're just in it for the loot and PvP.
I may be misunderstanding your post, but a LG character can't just kill another without receiving a flag. Unless a player is flagged a criminal, the LG char would get an attacker flag and a criminal flag if they assaulted another just like any other alignment would.
Can you give an example of what situation your talking about that let's a LG char attack another?
I think you might be confusing Flags and Alignment change.
Just because Flags would not exist in an FFA zone, doesn't mean alignment and reputation change can’t happen. Flags are meant to alert other players to a potential 'bad-guy'. It also prevents those 'bad-guys' from doing certain things as a sort of punishment for being bad. In an FFA zone, those flags are removed. Think of it as the legal consequences for ganking being removed.
Just because there are no legal consequences, doesn’t make attacking another PC for no good reason any less chaotic or evil. This means a LG character, if he wants to remain both Lawful and Good, will have to wait to be aggressed before he can respond to the aggressor.
The website forums are now up and running, though the website itself is still very much underdevelopment. I should have personally messaged all members with the URL but if not, please PM me for more details.
I for one, hope that NPCs take a very minimal role in player settlements. However I do see them being useful for a certain number of things.
Player Stores: it would be nice to be able to set up an NPC ran shop that players would load with their wares (as opposed to a MASSIVE world-wide market). This would give the world quite a bit of flavor as you would see certain goods only available in certain areas (based on resource availability), unless an enterpirsing PC decided to buy from one area and haul to another to sell for a profit.
Harvesters/Crafters: As discussed in the blogs, NPCs will be ones actually harvesting/crafting, you'll be there to manage and assist in certain things.
Guards/Town Watch: this is already being discussed in another thread.
Maybe a few wandering townsfolk (just to make raiding and settlement more fun with their slaughter).
@Clynx, +1 for the awesome post. I really hope that GW comes up with a system like this. What also lends to this idea is that upon death, it is possible to lose gear to the player who killed you, this makes replacing gear an important part of the economy (just like replacing ships and such in EVE) AND you're not going to be wanting to walk around fully loaded with all the best gear, as a good amount of that will be vulnerable to theft. You'll want to plan exactly which pieces of gear are going to give you the best benefit, thread those, and then base the rest of your equipment around what you can afford to lose.
@Rognyvald, its been discussed that players will make virtually everything in the game. As much as I've read, you're not going to be fighting in dungeons to get the +3 Sword of Awesome, you're going to be fighting in dungeons to get the rare magical componants the crafters need to make said sword. PvE will be used as a way to introduce non-harvestable materials into the economy, but crafters will be needed to make these things into something useful. Great player-made Kingdoms will have a balance of fighters, harvesters, and crafters if they want to be self sufficent.
Well met Wyldethorne, as soon as I have a spare moment, I will begin the process of opening offical diplomatic talks between my Order and your Kingdom. Our services are, and always will be, open to any who can afford the price. Anonymity in such matters will of course be at the foremost.
I think some in here a missing the grand scale of this game, when it comes to settlements.
I do not believe in the intention of the game was to make settlements available to every Chartered Company that wants one. Settlements aren't the sort of thing a group of 10 or 20 are going to be able to maintain on their own, you're thinking way to small here. Owning territory is going to be the realm of alliances (read: Kingdoms) of players. Many Chartered Companies working together.
I REALLY like what Lee posted about how the NPC guards will work. This game is about players and if a group of players wants to own something, they need to be able to defend it on their own. Plus, we've all seen how effective NPC guards are at holding back players.
Will your kingdoms be attacked when you’re not online? Most certainly. How do you defend against that sort of thing? EVE Online figured that out a long time ago. Spies. Espionage is the name of the game here. If you know when and where you enemy is going to attack, it’s much easier to plan a defense.
We haven't seen a lot about the siege mechanics in this game, but I imagine sieging a large settlement is not going to be a 30 minute affair. I remember the heady days of Dark Age of Camelot. Siege battles could last for hours, sometimes resulting in a stalemate as the defenders slowly rallied their people. Eventually you would see 200-300 people on a side, slinging it out in a massive game of tug-of-war. It was some of my most memorable experiences from my time in MMOs.
That’s my piece. I think GW has the right idea here and I can’t wait to see more info on the subject. I plan on keeping the Bloody Hand small and tight knit, but we also have no plans on owning land ourselves. We take, we don’t hold.
What about setting time limits for how long a bounty stays in effect?
Example:
Alku goes and kills a wandering traveler. This pisses wandering traveler off and puts a 1000 gold bounty on Alku's head (I'm worth at least twice that, but bear with me). The wandering travel, at the time of issuing the bounty, must also pay an additional fee (on top of the reward money), to allow the bounty to last for X number of days. Once that X number of days is up the reward money is returned to the wandering traveler and he is given the option of renewing it for a slightly larger amount of money.
This would allow the bounty system to remain infinite, but it would be come an ever increasing burden on the issuer if the bandit were able to cleverly avoid being killed.
One retort I see coming from this is, "well, the bandit will simply log off until the bounty goes away." To which I say, problem solved.
Another possible idea, and this one is really just me spit balling, is to only allow bounties to be posted from specific areas in the game (i.e. NPC ran bounty office). This would add a slight, although real, annoyance to the issuer of the bounty because he now may have to travel out of his way to re-up his bounty. Maybe these NPC Bounty Offices could be purchased and setup in Player Settlements.
3rd even crazier idea. Make bounties tied to a certain area. So if I issue the bounty in Player Kingdom of Awesome, it will only be applicable to that kingdom's hexes, and maybe the surrounding ones. This means if the offending bandit wants to avoid getting killed for his bounty, he should avoid those areas.
Then there is always the possibility that TEO is the Goons. This whole treaty is a front for their true intentions of world domination and destruction.
Spoken like a true capsuleer. Your tin-foil hat shines true my friend.
You are right though, the Goons will come. Its something we wont be able to stop. However, with GWs plans of slowly escalting the player base over several months, I wonder how much this will effect their ability to swarm over territory in the early game. But thats a discussion for another thread.
I think the whole concept of what griefing will and will not be, and how it will be handled by both players and GW has been beaten to death. Until more information comes out, I see no point in carrying on with speculation. As far as this treaty goes, I've already said I like the idea in spirit (it appeals to the RPer in me). We'll see how effective it could potentially be in the coming months as Ryan & Co. release more info about the game and its mechanics.
I would like to see some sort of stamina system put in the game. It makes sense to only be able to sprint and jump for so long before needing to rest. However, I dont think we need to go super in detail. Simple WASD and hold shift (or whatever) to sprint.
Well said sir, well said. The Bloody Hand does not, in any way condone griefing. While I agree with Bluddwulf in the fact that a signed document may not do much in the grand scheme of things, I think it is a good show of faith, especially if the evil Chartered Companies agree to sign it. I would like to see the various points made by Bluddwulf added into any such document, with the exception of point six. While I will encourage ransoms to be asked (because it's just good buisness) I would never require my men to do such things. Having that kind of rule in place could be exploited by the carvan owners, and thus, endanger my men. Dead bandits is also not good for my buisness. I may even entertain the idea of offering discounts on the Bloody Hand's services in the case of griefers, but thats something that will require further internal discussion.
Hello esteemed members of the Empyrean Order and a special greeting to my fellow Grand Master Andius!
My name is Alku Leon, Grand Master of the Fraternal Order of the Bloody Hand. This is probably long overdue, but I just wanted to say I'm excited to see that you guys are growing well! The more *cough* targets *cough* the merrier I always say!
We are looking forward to meeting you all on the roads and paths of the River Kingdoms! Let us know if, in your Kingdom making, you need certain areas... cleaned up... we'll happily evict those who are very obviously trespassing in your sovereign territory!
What it looks like it reads is that everything on your corpse is lootable except what is threaded, gear worn or carried. So if you have a nice sword and some pretty nifty armor you want to thread it but if that uses all your available threads then you will lose your bag of holding and your boots of speed.
Thats what I read it to mean as well. I'm personally glad for it. I know we're all getting sick of EVE references, but the physical rush I get from PVP in EVE stems from the fact that once I'm "committed" to fight (i.e. both me and my opponant have no way of running away), I know its down to me, or him. One of us is flying away with his ship, the other is not. It's that real sense of loss and danger that gets me hooked to PVP in that game.
People who have played EVE know what I'm talking about, others dont. Until you feel that sensation for yourself, you just arent going to understand. I hope this real sense of excitement happens when I'm in PvP in PFO. I want to know that when I jump out from the shadows, its going to be me, or him. One of us is going to end up dead on the ground, the other is going to get the spoils.
I can't lose anything I have in my hands (weapons), my armor or my money. This is without threading anything.
So, lets turn this scenario around on the good guys, shall we?
I'm leading my band of ne'er do wells (The Bloody Hand). We've currently set up a nice hideout along a well traveled route. Knowing full well, that as long as we have nothing lose in our inventories, there is no possible way for us to lose equipment, I've orderd my men to only bring weapons and armor, leave all the other stuff at home.
Now we have been rendered immune to gear loss, while other wandering travelers (who have not taken the same precautions as I) are the ONLY ones who could possibly lose items during our attack.
This renders the death curse useless as I have no "threaded" items. Now the worst I can expect is a bounty, and I'm looking forward to seeing how large of a bounty I can acumulate.
For all of you who are against non-consensual PVP, you should hope that this is not how things turn out. Your best hope is that both weapons and armor are included in things that can drop. That way they need to be threaded. The Death Curse would then have a real effect and may deter people like me from randomly attacking you. But probably not. I grew up with EVE... don't fly anything you can't afford to lose. I play by the rule, don't fly anything you wouldn't self destruct on a bet.
EDIT: On 2nd thought, I'd probably leave a bottle of some sort of alcohol in my inventory, maybe the one I'll have named after my character. A job well done gift from me to you.
Otherwise I see attribute training skills going the way of EVE's learning skills. By that I mean, they were removed. Unless they are staggard in some sort of way in the overall training, players will probably feel obligated to train up the attribute skills first and formost, as what happened in EVE for so many years.
Staggering the attribute raising skills (oh i dont know, maybe every 4 "levels") would be a way to let players still raise their attributes without feeling imposed on.
Ryan Dancey wrote:
One of the big issues I have with the EVE skill system is that EVE skills don't just give you access to stuff, they actually make your character intrinsically better.
So your attribute selection ties DIRECTLY into how good your PC is at many common activities, based simply on how old the PC is.
I dont see why this is an issue. I expect my rogue to be way better at Dexterity based things as compared to say, a wizard or sorceror. I also expect, when he is a year old or so, for him to be far better at dexterity based things than a 1 month old rouge. Much in the same way a Lvl 10 character is significantly better than a lvl 1 character.
Maybe I'm missing a part of the big picture, but I think attributes SHOULD make your character directly better.
One idea that comes to mind for this topic is something I've used as a GM in the TTRPG before.
You're average Longsword is just that, average. Pretty difficult to tell one Longsword from another.
Master Craft Longswords now, they are just that, Masterfully Crafed and there for much easier to distiguish.
Once you start reaching magical levels you're talking about truly unique items.
Perhaps for cosmetics GW could employ a similar system, give each item a certain number of player customizable cosmetic differences depending on the uniqueness of the item itself.
Your standard issue platemail may not look much different from anyone elses, but your +3 Platemail of Pure Awesome could look far different. (it could also be more revealing cause... well its magical protection after all).
This could also be a good place to put micro-transactions in the game.
Well met, I welcome the challenge your organization will bring. Ensure your men keep an eye on the road, and an eye to the darkness as they travel the Crusader Road.
OOC: I'm glad to see a leader as yourself welcoming the evil organizations. I mean, if we didn't exist, all you good guys would have no one to be valiant and righteous against! Looking forward to facing the Emyprean Order in game, and good luck with your Company! -Alku, Grand Master of the Bloody Hand
The Grand Master, Lord Militant and Brother Captains form the Grand Cohort and the Grand Masters Council. They are the overall leadership body of the Order.
Under them, the Brother Knights each lead their own independent Cohort. These Cohorts are semi-autonomous groups that may operate where and how they wish, provided they keep to the tenants of the Order. Recruitment into the Order starts with these Cohorts. A Brother Knight may invite anyone he deems fit to join his Cohort. Cohorts will be called upon to fulfill contracts as needed by the order.
When not engaged in a contract, Cohorts are expected to stalk the dark places of the Crusader Road, preying on travelers and caravans, extracting ransoms and murdering those unwilling to give up their coin.
Ranking Structure: Grand Master – Leader of the Order
Lord Militant – 2nd in Command, Head of the Grand Master’s Council
Brother Captains – High Officers, Order Diplomats, Members of the Grand Master’s Council
Brother Knights – Officers, Cohort Leaders
Brother Squires – Non-Commissioned Officers, 2nd to the Brother Knight in the Cohort.
Brother – Order Member
Neophyte – New Recruit
A note on recruitment: We are currently searching for members to fill our ranks. Any accepted before the beta launches will be awarded the rank of Brother or higher, based on their personal desires and the needs of the Order.
Name: The Bloody Hand (Formally: The Fraternal Order of the Bloody Hand)
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Preferred Alignments: NN/CN/LE/NE/CE
Ruling Body: Grand Master and Council
Role: Provide a destabilizing force in the River Kingdoms
Player Roles Accepted: We are a strictly militant order. We do not accept those who are primarily harvesters or craftsmen.
Website: coming soon
Ideology: We stand as an Order of warriors, thieves and assassins for hire. Members will be expected to kill, and kill frequently. We claim no land, we live in the shadows. We take from those we can and complete our assigned contracts without mercy. We are for hire to any who can afford us. We will never break a contract.
Who Should Join: Those who don’t want the easy life of living in the Lawful and Good parts of society. Those that want to live on the fringe. Those who want an organization that will keep them in good coin and provide them ample targets of opportunity. We are an organization with room for advancement, if you show the guile and cunning. How hard you work will directly reflect how far you go… and how much you get paid.
Our Rules:
Never break a contract.
Never show mercy.
Joining the Bloody Hand:
PM Alku Leon or Phyllain for more details and how you can become a part of the Order or if you would like to open diplomatic channels.
OOC: This is not an organization for Griefers. We are not here to harass anyone outside the constructs of what the game allows. We are here to explore what being a bandit and assassin is like in PFO but we will not tolerate excessive harassment of anyone. We want to make the game dangerous and real but we don’t want to drive people away through constant, never ending grief.
When I'm playing Pathfinder (the table top) I generally tend to view the Lawful discriptor has having to seperate meanings. I either means you hold to the laws of the land, or, you hold to your own personal code of conduct.
When I play lawful evil characters, I tend towards the latter of those two.
I think any assassin who never breaks or backs down from a contract is Lawful Evil. He is doing something (taking a life) that is evil. However he is remaining within his own personal code of conduct.
My Chartered Company (the Bloody Hand mentioned by Phyllian) will do just that. We are going to do lots of evil things. Very evil things. But we have a set of rules and tentants that those in our Company will be required to follow. These rules will, hopefully, prevent what most consider 'griefing' and allow us to play the game how we want.
Now I come from EVE Online, I have no qualms about killing or being killed. It's one of the things I apprecaite about the game. I realize that a lot of people don't share this opinion. I realize I'm probably going to get more than one report filed against me and my company for "griefing". I'm just taking it on good faith that GW will be able to fairly delineate the difference between our way of playing the game, and how others expect us to act.
As far as mechanics goes. If I end up rapidly decending to Chaotic as opposed to Lawful evil, then so be it, but I will continue to enforce what I view as Lawful conduct amoungst my company.
This is the kind of place a Rogue like me could really appreciate. You got my vote in the land-grab, hope it helps, I'll encourage the rest of my comrades to do the same. I'd love to see a bastion for us non-good aligned types to be able to rest, at least somewhat easy, after a hard days work and I'll lend a dagger if need be to see it done. Best of luck!
Goblin Squad Member
