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Organized Play Member. 17 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character.


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Souls At War wrote:


Carrius is pretty much the trigger for Pythareus' actions/reactions.

I didn't read it quite that way. Appreciate the good word and the help.


Souls At War wrote:


1) it alters Xan wanting to just slay Carrius.
2) Taking on the entire cult might be a bit much for Xan, with extra issues if done in public.
3) Holy Plot Derailment Batman!

1) Oh, that's still going to happen. I like the idea of then having Panivar try again.

2) All Xan had to do was fly in and do a smash-and-grab. He wasn't necessarily there to take down the entire cult, in my estimation. We played it more as a cutscene than an actual battle, and my group's characters were very happy to let the mayhem unfold from a distance after the eviction occurred.

3) Sure, but honestly, not by much. Carrius doesn't play much of a role in the next volume, so there'll be plenty of time to get things back on track. It also sets up a return of Vaddirgan later on, and gives me more time to figure out how his powers work so I can run him more effectively.


ARosey wrote:

My party in the campaign I am running has pretty much gotten to the end of Book 3, with the final task being to investigate the Cult and figure out just what's going on in the Bower. I followed some advice on this thread and made the reveal of Carrius when they went to services for the first time, so that was a fun move.

Anyway, in talking about planning how to investigate and infiltrate the cult, one of the party made an offhand comment of "Maybe we should just buy the theatre and then evict them. What started off as a joke turned into getting in contact with the city administration, searching through public records and deeds to find out who held the deed (I said that it was under custodianship of the Mercantile Council due to a ownership vacuum), worked a deal to set up a shell corporation, secretly funded by the Bank of Abadar (who were more than happy to help oust the cult) to get their hands on the deed. One of the party (with the Noble Scion background) has kept on putting pips in Profession (barrister) as a joke, but it's paying off handsomely now. Now they can legally go in and evict the ne'er-do-wells without any violence (hopefully).

What started off as a joke of "let's buy the building" ended up taking up half a session of legal wrangling, appearances before local planning boards, and tax assessments, loan conditions, and a bevy of other municipal administrivia.

So after a bunch of legal wrangling, an exploration of the sewers (and an aborted encounter with the pudding at the bottom of the elevator), the party really wants to lean on the fact that they have the legal right to have the Cult evicted, and they've done a good enough job working the Mercantile Council and the bureaucracy to make it happen. I also know my party and I want to keep the story moving along - we're at the end of Book 3 and we've been playing this campaign for coming up on 3 years now (we only play for like 2 hours a week, so it's slow going.)

Here's what I want to do (and I recognize it'll require a bit of reworking some later books): they get the Cult evicted, and on the date of the eviction, Xan comes down and attacks the Cult, quite literally swooping in and snatching Carrius, returning him to Pharasma's gentle embrace. Do you think this would be possible? Is Xan powerful enough to take on the Cult by himself? My plan is to then have Panivar work on getting Carrius back while the party is in Zimar, then pick back up the Immaculate Circle story in Book 5.

Ideas? Thoughts? Concerns?


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My party in the campaign I am running has pretty much gotten to the end of Book 3, with the final task being to investigate the Cult and figure out just what's going on in the Bower. I followed some advice on this thread and made the reveal of Carrius when they went to services for the first time, so that was a fun move.

Anyway, in talking about planning how to investigate and infiltrate the cult, one of the party made an offhand comment of "Maybe we should just buy the theatre and then evict them. What started off as a joke turned into getting in contact with the city administration, searching through public records and deeds to find out who held the deed (I said that it was under custodianship of the Mercantile Council due to a ownership vacuum), worked a deal to set up a shell corporation, secretly funded by the Bank of Abadar (who were more than happy to help oust the cult) to get their hands on the deed. One of the party (with the Noble Scion background) has kept on putting pips in Profession (barrister) as a joke, but it's paying off handsomely now. Now they can legally go in and evict the ne'er-do-wells without any violence (hopefully).

What started off as a joke of "let's buy the building" ended up taking up half a session of legal wrangling, appearances before local planning boards, and tax assessments, loan conditions, and a bevy of other municipal administrivia.

It's things like this that remind me why I love this game so damn much.


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So I've been running my gaming group through CotCT on and off for a few years now. They all have enjoyed the game when it's been based in Korvosa, as I think I've done an OK job creating the city and giving them all the opportunities to roleplay and explore within the framework of the story. Even though some of them were happy to Escape from Old Korvosa, a majority of them weren't really too pleased with venturing out into the Cinderlands, but a few of them did come around. What my group didn't really dig was that they felt railroaded a bit by the quest nature of History of Ashes, and I did my best to modify that to alleviate some of their frustrations.

We are at a point where I've been told flat-out that they want to return to Korvosa to start the uprising and get rid of the queen. They've worked out deals with the Sun and Moon clan to send troops to help support the citizens in revolt with the hopes that there will be some sort of path to peace once Neolandus is back and a rightful ruler is restored to the throne. I also know that my group is not really the biggest fan of a massive dungeon crawl. To that end, I'm thinking I want to skip Scarwall.

"Wait a sec, Rosey" you are saying, "You need to get Seriathal!" I've already worked knowledge of the sword into the story through their discussion with the Sun Shaman, and I've dropped many hints and hooks that the sword was recovered from barbarians some time ago and is sitting dormant in a forgotten chamber below Castle Korvosa, waiting until it sensed the time that Kazavon returned and would make its presence known (which was done when three of my players used the globe in the Acropolis).

So, I want to skip Scarwall, have them get the sword from below the castle, then continue with freeing the city (and everything in Episode VI). The party consists of the following 9th level characters:
- Human cleric of Sarenrae
- Human fighter/rogue
- Human sorcerer (arcane bloodline)
- Gnome druid (w/ tiger companion)
- Dwarf fighter
- Half-orc barbarian/oracle/rage prophet
- Human bard

Has anyone done this successfully? What are some pitfalls I need to watch out for? Will my party get themselves TPK'd if they go into Episode VI without another level or two? Any help would be most appreciated!


walter mcwilliams wrote:

Any suggestions for running for seven? I really hate the "everything balanced for four", standard of the game but that cant be helped. Some of my common solutions to this problem are

a - give badguys max hp
b - increase qty/hd of badguys

but in the end the larger parties have so many overlapping abilities the entire feel of the game changes. I have alway felt 5 was the perfect number. You get the 4 basic food groups, and someone can play something special. But seven gives just way to much redundency especially with my very seasoned (all since 1ed) gamers.

Anyway, if any DM have any additional suggestions to help that would be great.

Thanks

I'm running with seven, but not every player can make it. I try to hold off big encounters until everyone is there (so no one misses big story moments) but I just usually double the henchman and max the hit points. Also, don't forget to double the treasure!


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

As to the first question, in Pathfinder any creature of a standard race (Human, Elf, Gnome, Dwarf, Half-Elf, Half-Orc or Halfling) with class levels has a CR of Class level -1.

They are still CR 2 creatures under path finder rules. It appears they are missing a feat I would recommend Point-Blank Shot, or Weapon Focus (Bomb)

Oh man, I must've missed that when I've been calculating CRs for XP awards for my CotCT campaign, with converted characters. I don't think my players would complain too much about my error, but surprisingly enough, it's going to work out well that my party will just be hitting 4th level when we finish with EoA and move on to 7DttG.

Thanks for the clear-up!


Questions on the alchemist:
1) Why bump up to 3rd level when the original Queen's Physicians are at 2nd?
2) Aren't your alchemists missing a feat?
3) How did the encounter go, with both the alchemists and cavaliers?


fanguad wrote:

I realized that I never actually posted the details of my filler adventure. This quest took place before Field Marshall Kroft hires the PCs to find Trinia...

I just ran a variation on your filler quest for my party of 7 (!) who needed an XP bump before getting hired to track down Trinia. Instead of the enemies being spies from Magnimar, I'm going to have them be representatives from the Brothers of the Seven, and the PCs are going to find some paperwork referring to 'Vorel's phage' and some documents of symptom reports of what will eventually turn into 'blood veil', just to introduce that hook early on so the two chapters of CotCT can be a little more smooth in transition. Also included will be a travel itinerary/log, showing that the spies arrived in the city after the king's death.

I just used your characters and classes, but increased their levels by 1, and my party had a good time trying to deal with them. Thanks for the idea!


Paul Watson wrote:

Story XP is your friend here. If they accomplish their goal, give them the reward for defeating him. If that doesn't work, boost it. They'll never know.

To be honest, during APs I completely ignore experience points and the party level when they hit story goals so that they're at about the right level. It's much easier that trying to count every little bit of XP.

I definitely give out XP for roleplaying sessions and accomplishing story goals, and I definitely am picking up what you're laying down. I think I'll end up going with your suggestion, if only as a last resort.

I do appreciate the good word, though! Thanks!


So things have been going rather well since my earlier issues with running this AP - the characters are (mostly) getting along, and everyone is having a good time. Unfortunately, I've run into a bit of an issue, and I'm not sure if it's an issue of my own making.

We've gotten to Eel's End, where it appears that our heroes are going to be able to get what they need through diplomatic means (I suppose it's a good thing when two party members are recreational drug users?) with a little bit of palm-greasing and entertainment. However, at this point, my characters are still only about halfway to Level 3 (on the fast progression), which is what is recommended before moving onto the next part.

I've had them do some of the riot quests (including the otyugh, which was rather fun, having one of my characters reversing a grapple and grappling the otyugh), but here's my issue:

1) I've tried to scale up the encounters for higher difficulty (and therefore more XP) but if my party isn't at level 3 yet, is there something that I'm doing wrong?

2) Any ideas as to what I can have my party do during the downtime between Eels End and their next encounter? I'm planning on exploring their character hooks/origins a little more, but I'm going to need something with some 'meat' to give them enough XP to get over the hump.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


Simcha wrote:
Arrest them... intriguing.

I meant their characters...not actually calling the police on your gaming group ;)

When they were sitting in the Citadel, my players did some really great role-playing, hurling insults and accusations back and forth, while at the same time allowing for some "bonding time" for them to really get to know each other, in character. By the time they were released, they weren't best friends, but they weren't strangers either - some common ground was found outside of their mutual hatred of Lamm, and it brought them closer to the eventual goal of forming 'a party'. Its a credit to my gaming group that they listened to what I had to say, and still had fun with the experience.


Simcha, a few observations & suggestions:

1) What I asked of my players was to meet me halfway - I still would give them opportunities to pursue their own hooks, individual agendas, etc., but that they should recognize that the AP is predicated on having a common purpose. In the game, the events occurred that led to them becoming a semblance of an adventuring group, and I was gratified to see that they all came together (albeit for their own reasons) for that common purpose. I was a bit worried/nervous about talking to my players about my issues with the way they were approaching the adventure path, simply because these are my friends and I didn't want to come off talking in my 'teacher voice', but a quick 2 minute conversation really allayed all my issues (at least at the moment) for running the AP.

2) IMO, you've got to curtail the whole "giving feedback at the end of the session", especially since it seems to not be a positive experience. Usually, the only question that I ask is "Did we have fun tonight?" - on the rare occasion that the answer is "No", we have a brief discussion as to why, but I stress that it is a very short conversation. If they have any serious issues, do what I do: handle it one-on-one, preferably a day or two after the session. Hashing out issues with an audience is the absolute worst way of dealing with a player's problem.

3) If all else fails, have them arrested. It worked for me.


Here's the update:

My gaming group met last night, and I had a quick chat with every member of the group (mostly) individually beforehand, double-checking their desire to play through an adventure path, and pretty much laying out the fact that I didn't want to run individual campaigns, and I don't mind them having their own characters' individual motivations, backgrounds, quirks, etc, but that I didn't want to deal with a free-for-all. The fighter (aka the murderer) asked me flat out if I thought he was going to need to roll up a new character - I told him that it was up to him, but he seemed pretty receptive (as did everyone) to what I had to say. (Quick note: this player is a solid role-player, and tends to do things at times because of their 'cinematic' value. The murder was one of those times.)

So how did I deal with it?:
About 5 seconds after the murder occurs, while everyone is still standing there speechless, the gnome druid who is standing watch outside runs in and tries to barricade the door, shouting out a warning to everyone inside. In burst 4 rioters with torches, who stumble into this scene: 6 adventurers standing around a bound, half-blindfolded prisoner sitting in a chair, with a crossbow bolt through his head. Needless to say, they're stunned, too. At this point the crossbow gets tossed across the room as to not be held by anyone.

Immediately following the rioters is a squad of 3 soldiers from the Guard, plus a sergeant. They see the scene, and immediately arrest everyone, over the protestations of the cleric and the sorcerer, who openly blame the fighter for the murder. The sergeant pretty much said "We're taking you all in, and we'll sort it out later". The barbarian and the fighter seemed to be itching for a fight, but they were disuaded (by the wizard, I think). They get carted off to the Citadel, where their belongings are inventoried, and they are thrown into adjoining cells (I didn't want them in the same cell, simply to avoid any PvP fallout). Lots of tension, blame getting tossed back and forth, etc. Good role-playing at this point from all players.

At this point, Sabina Merrin comes in, to meet with the people who retrieved the lost brooch. Funny scene at this point - the wizard (the only character with Appraise & Knowledge Nobility) had openly lied to the party about what the brooch was, in order to hide the true value of the brooch (a thing which my player told me OOC that he realized wasn't the best thing to do, but he figured it would end up being a good scene later) so when Sabina told them all what it was, pretty much they all turned around and said "we're *always* getting a 2nd opinion".

While some in the party were cowed by Sabina's presence, or awed by her beauty, the cleric and the wizard were able to spin a convincing tale of how they had eliminated Lamm (playing up how awful he was, a cancer to the city, etc.) and had recovered the brooch, and of COURSE they were going to return it to the Queen, but they had an unfortunate run-in with Balko, and that there was a misunderstanding, but that they were repentant and the murder was unfortunate. They did a really nice job of telling the tale, and they convinced Sabina of their love of the city.

At this point, we jumped right back into the AP, with the Queen thanking them and recruiting them as agents of the Guard. The wizard and sorcerer (both related to House Ornelos) were both in awe that the Queen had met with them and were admittedly scared. The cleric views this as an opportunity to fight injustice, glory for her deity, etc. The orc gets to smash things, so he's happy about that. The fighter and druid...well, their motivation is not as clear, but they seem like they are back on the path, as it were.

All in all, I think it went well. Thanks to everyone who left me a good word!


First, I just want to say this: what an amazing community we've got going on here, where a call for help gets almost immediate response not only from my fellow gamers, but from the Editor-in-Chief . I sent a link to this thread to my wife (home sick and a fellow gamer) and she agreed as to the awesomeness of it.

So, after our session that left me rather deflated, I didn't feel like writing too much, but I want to flesh out more what's going on with our group, the players, their characters and get some feedback on my plan, based on the great posts above. It's going to be a little long-winded, so I'm going to break it up under spoiler tags. Feel free to read as little or as much as you like.

The Gaming Group:

My group: 6 players (5 friends + the wife) who all have plenty of role-playing experience (except the wife, she's an advanced-beginner and constantly improving).
Me: I'm what I'd consider an advanced-beginner DM. I've run one campaign (3.5 Forgotten Realms) that hit a strong pause due to graduate school combined with my job.
How we got into PFRPG: I'd read a lot about Paizo, visited the booth at GenCon, talked with one of the reps, etc. Since the other 2 campaigns that were DM'd by other players were inconsistent at best, I suggested the AP to my group - a long campaign that could be run consistently, pretty much weekly. I chose the CotCT since my FR campaign was set in an urban setting, and it seemed like a good match. I also suggested that we use the new PFRPG rules, and everyone agreed and seemed excited. I buy the books, and we're ready to go - everyone is into the idea, and they love reading through the new rules and the CotCT Player's Guide.

The Characters:

Human Wizard (Conjurer): Young, rich & arrogant, initiate at the Acadamae, exceptional talent but more interested in doing drugs with his former roommate (see next).
Human Sorcerer (Arcane heritage): Distaff relation to the Ornelos, young and rich, outcast from his family, dropout from the Acadamae (wizard's former roommate), slowly becoming addicted to shiver. Both hate Lamm for cheating them out of a sum of money during a drug deal. Both players expressed the desire to play characters that will end up fighting through their addiction.
Human Cleric of Sarenrae (aka the wife): Priestess at an orphanage, hates Lamm for his treatment of the children, even more so since he used one of his Lambs to infiltrate her orphanage and steal valuables in the night. Can be fanatical in her devotion to her faith, she's a direct implement of Sarenrae's divine will in the world.
Half-orc Barbarian: Orphaned, drifter growing up, ended up working for Lamm as hired muscle. Failed an assignment guarding a shipment out of the city, Lamm had minions break into his house, murdered his concubine. Definitely feels like an outcast to the city, but yearns to carve out a home and existence.
Human Fighter: Paranoid and OCD, not trusting of motives, does not go out in public without a scarf covering his face, extreme knowledge of city geography due to constant twist/turn paths while traveling. Believes that he is the steward of the city, and he will protect it by any means necessary.
Gnome Druid: Don't have too much in terms of character background yet, this player is in the process of finalizing buying a house and barely has time to get to our sessions. Long-time friend who was absent for a long time, and I'm glad to have him back and was willing to give the "I've got my own reasons for tagging along with the party...I just haven't figured them out yet" a little leeway.

So What Happened?:

After killing Lamm, the fighter discovered Zellara's head and the Harrow deck in Lamm's hovel. The wizard and sorcerer scoured around for drugs and money, the cleric got her hands on a stolen holy symbol, and the brooch was found and kept by the wizard, who immediately recognized its meaning (and figured he could turn it in for a fat purse with which he could go on a shiver spree). Balko was kept alive, if only to interrogate by the casters as to any more hidden caches of Lamm's goods. The cleric was more concerned with the fate of the orphans, and planned on leaving after Balko was turned over to the authorities to start trying to round up orphans and find them a happy home. The druid wanted to go back to Zellara's to investigate just who/what talked to them originally. At this point, the city started to devolve into riot, through which the characters were able to mostly avoid (thanks to the street knowledge of the fighter) At the house, Zellara appeared and thanked them for retrieving her deck, and told them the truth as to her fate, as well as naming them as heroes of Korvosa who will be the light of the city in dark times, etc, etc. The characters started in on some light interrogation of Balko, and at that point, the fighter, who is covering him with a crossbow, says "I shoot him in the head with the crossbow". Ugh.

So what am I going to do?

  • Like many of you all have suggested, the first thing I'm going to do is double-check the players' desire to play through an AP. If they say yes, then I'm going to have a very frank discussion about how they need to work *with* me to try to build the best gaming experience possible.
  • I'm going to have a chat with the player whose character did the killing - I wasn't happy with his response of "it's more fun to make him dead...well, more fun for us...but harder for you" when I reminded him that he couldn't coup de grace with a ranged weapon and we might end up revising what happened.
  • Do I redo the actual murder? I'm honestly split on this - part of me wants to be a rules lawyer and simply not allow it based on RAW, and make them play it out, but I'm afraid it might lead to some PvP (in the case of the cleric). I'm hoping I can dissuade the player from going through the murder and avoid the "well, my character would have done it" argument (which I heard earlier today).
  • The fighter ended up with Zellara's deck. I like the idea of the deck being able to "choose" a more worthy hero, and I'm inclined to choose the half-orc, only because he seems to be the character that all the other ones get along with, and it will give his character another hook to get involved with the story (now that the first act is over).
  • If the Guard happens upon them in Zellara's house, they'd probably end up all getting thrown in prison, since it would appear they all just participated in the murder. Being in possession of the brooch would get the attention of Cressida. She would offer $ (appealing to the drug addicts), glory & righteousness (for the cleric) and an outlet for aggression (for the barbarian), which I think could work. I'm not as much of a fan of this since it is rather railroading, but they may need this type of kick in the you-know-where.

Here's to hoping all that works. If the players decide they now *don't* want to play in the AP, I'm not entirely sure just what they are going to play *at all* since no one else is running a campaign. I'm hoping the blank wall of no gaming that they can all look forward to will get them to work with me on this. I'll keep everyone posted.

Again, much thanks to everyone who took the time to answer my post! You guys are great! Can't wait to chit-chat more.


Here's my issue (2, actually), under the spoiler as to not give anything away (this is my first post and I'm not sure of etiquette here). I also freely admit that I don't think I'm a particularly good DM, and am fully willing to accept full responsibility for either of these issues - I just would appreciate some advice as to what to do:

My issue:
My characters raided the Old Fishery, brought back Balko to Zellara's house for some interrogation (based on character background) and one of my characters decides to shoot a bound and helpless Balko with a crossbow. At this point, the characters pretty much agreed that they didn't want anything to do with this murderer anymore - I don't want to force the characters to do anything they don't want to do, but I don't quite know how to get them back together to act like an adventuring party. The session pretty much unwound after the execution - not that the players were personally offended, they were more dumbfounded than anything else. So yes, I'm at a loss, and would appreciate some advice as to where to go next.

...and another thing:
Everyone seemed to feel that their character arcs are now closed, with Lamm being brought to justice, and even though there is chaos in Korvosa, and the city facing a domestic threat, that they are more than happy to go their separate ways, despite the pleading from Zellara that she sees that they are the heroes that will lead Korvosa through the dark times, the Harrow reading, etc. I don't know where the feeling the characters have is coming from - I made sure to tell the players to keep in mind that all their characters should have grown up in Korvosa and love the city for one reason or another - but they don't seem to have any desire to be around each other anymore, much less work together to help save the city.

So I'm at a loss, and would appreciate any and all words of wisdom. Thanks!


Question - what # of adventurers are the APs designed for? I've got a group that fluctuates between 4-7, depending on the availability of my gaming group. Any suggestions how I could scale the AP upwards?

BTW - love the plot and storyline and everything else about this adventure path. We are running the PFRPG for the first time with my group (all 3.5 devotees) and we are having great success - keep up the great work!