Born of Two Worlds

Tuesday, July 24, 2018

As some of you have no doubt noticed, we haven't said much about half-elves and half-orcs except to confirm that they'll be part of the Pathfinder Playtest. Of all of the ancestry choices in Pathfinder, these were two of the trickiest to design. With the way that the feats are structured, it would be easy enough to just list the feats from both parents (plus some unique options), but that quickly led to cherry-picking the best of both. Moreover, that approach didn't address the base statistics of the ancestry that are very important to overall balance, such as starting hit points and speed.

In the end, we decided to make both half-elves and half-orcs an addition to the human ancestry. You start by selecting human, then take the corresponding heritage feat to represent your diverse ancestry. Let's take a look at the half-elf feat.

Half-Elf Feat 1

Heritage, Human

Either one of your parents was an elf, or one or both were half-elves. You have pointed ears and other telltale signs of elven heritage. You gain the elf trait. Select two of the following benefits: elven speed (increase your Speed by 5 feet), elven tongue (add Elven to your list of languages), gifted speaker (you are trained in Diplomacy), or low-light vision (you can see in dim light as well as you can in bright light). In addition, you can select elf, half-elf, and human feats whenever you gain an ancestry feat.

Special You can select this feat twice. The second time, it loses the heritage trait and you gain the other two benefits.

This approach comes with a number of advantages. First off, it lets us make a half-elf that truly does have some of the advantages of both ancestries, while still allowing you to pick the parts that you think best represent your character's upbringing. Grew up among elves? Then picking up the Elven language makes sense. Had to explain yourself to the humans you grew up with? Then being trained in Diplomacy might be the way to go. As with all of our ancestries, we wanted the choice of being a half-elf or half-orc to be meaningful to your character and expressive of the backstory that you've decided to create. This ancestry feat gives a lot of benefits; to get similar benefits, you would normally use a general feat to pick up Adoptive Ancestry, which grants you access to the ancestry feats from another ancestry (as long as they don't have physiological requirements) to represent your deep connection to another ancestry's culture and traditions. However, being a half-elf gives you access to human feats, elf feats, and half-elf feats (including feats with physiological components), as well as two additional benefits.

At this point, you might be saying, wait, what about humans in general? Let's take a look at some of their options. At its core, human is a very flexible ancestry, with choices like Natural Ambition to gain an extra 1st-level class feat, General Training to gain an extra 1st-level general feat, and Skilled to gain training in two additional skills. However, humans also have fun options for particular builds, like this one for a character who wants to reduce the penalties for being untrained.

Clever Improviser Feat 1

Human

You've learned how to handle situations where you're out of your depth. You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to checks for skills in which you're untrained.

Of course, this approach for half-elves and half-orcs means that we needed to include a few orc feats in the book so players would get the complete experience of being a half-orc. Take a look at this classic feat.

[[R]] Orc Ferocity Feat 1

Orc

Frequency once per day

Trigger You're reduced to 0 Hit Points.


Fierceness in battle runs through your blood, and you refuse to fall from your injuries. When this feat is triggered, you avoid being knocked out and remain at 1 Hit Point.

This allows the half-orc to stay in the fight after taking a felling blow, even a really big hit or a critically failed save against a dragon's breath attack!

In addition to allowing you to choose any feat from both ancestries, we were also able to design a few ancestry feats specifically for half-elves and half-orcs. Take a look at this half-elf feat.

Inspire Imitation Feat 5

Half-Elf

You inspire your allies to great feats through your own actions. Whenever you critically succeed at a skill check, you automatically qualify to take the Aid reaction when attempting to help an ally at the same skill check, even without spending an action to prepare to do so.

This means that when you critically succeed, you can Aid your ally at no extra cost to yourself, which is particularly useful if your ally needs some help doing something at which you excel.

Beyond what this means for half-elves and half-orcs, using an ancestry feat to unlock a more diverse heritage gives us a lot of options for the future. For instance, aasimars, tieflings, and other planar scions come from a wide variety of ancestries in Golarion, instead of just defaulting to human. In Pathfinder First Edition, there's a sidebar to that effect, but it provides no mechanical adjustments for non-human planar scions beyond their size category. The playtest treatment would allow you to build a character whose ancestry really reflects their combined heritage. And if your setting has half-elves and half-orcs where the other parent isn't human, say half-orc/half-dwarf characters, you can just allow the half-orc feat for dwarf characters and the rest of the work is already taken care of. This also opens up a lot of design space (in the form of feats) to explore what otherworldly parentage might mean, giving you different options based on what type of outsider has influenced your heritage, similar to the popular subcategories of aasimar and tieflings (pitborn, musetouched, and so on). Having a solar in the family might grant access to entirely different feats than if your ancestors were blessed by a hound archon.

Now, this approach is a little different than what we've done in the past, so we are going to be asking a few questions about this through surveys during the playtest. We're keen to hear what you think about half-elves and half-orcs in the playtest. Why not roll one up and give it a try?

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Pathfinder Playtest
651 to 700 of 768 << first < prev | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | next > last >>

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Meophist wrote:
I imagine giving half-elves free access to multiple ancestry feat types gave a bunch of issues, balance-wise.

I can't see how as we're only talking 4 options over your entire levels. For most of the games i play, I might see 2 before the game breaks up. If it's SO strong, I'd rather see a custom list removing the troublesome options and give them actual options to start the game off with.


graystone wrote:
You literally do not see any benefit until 9th for race feats...
Vidmaster7 wrote:
In your opinion the fact you gain access to both of the ancestry feat trees of the hybrid race is worth the lose of the ancestry feat correct? I say lose even though it does in fact give you a lot because from what I can tell if you went full elf you would gain everything it gave you but still have an ancestry feat yes?

As said earlier, and from the blog :

blog wrote:
You gain the elf trait. Select two of the following benefits: elven speed (increase your Speed by 5 feet), elven tongue (add Elven to your list of languages), gifted speaker (you are trained in Diplomacy), or low-light vision (you can see in dim light as well as you can in bright light).

You don't only gain access to 3 ancestry feat trees against one.

To me, the fact that you gain abilities you couldn't otherwise (gifted speaker is the best representative of this, since this Diplomacy training is not because you have human or elf genes, but typically because as a Half-Elf you have to strive to be accepted in both societies, thus full humans and full elves don't get this) and the fact that you get the elf ancestry feats and the fact that you get the half-elf ancestry feats is worth losing your level 1 human ancestry. There's a slight but important difference.

For Gifted Speaker, Elven Speed and that sweet Inspire Imitation feat, yeah, I'd give away my Natural Ambition (except if there are two feats I critically need from level 1 and can't wait two levels), or my General training (same thing) or my Skilled (I trade one skill at first level for Gifted Speaker and Inspire Imitation, seems fair to me) without hesitation

(Plus, but that's only my theory, I don't think level 1 ancestry feats will be that much powerful that taking a human, elf or orc level 1 ancestry will be that critical. Level 1 abilities tend to not be very powerful if they don't improve with your levels through the vast majority of d20 RPGs I played, and most of those level 1 options can be taken later without much interference. While half-breed feats have a great chance to be pretty powerful, considering you have prerequists and they are not first-level-available.)


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Almarane wrote:
You don't only gain access to 3 ancestry feat trees against one.

I quite clearly was comparing them to elves: they start off at a negative there IMO.

Almarane wrote:
To me, the fact that you gain abilities you couldn't otherwise (gifted speaker is the best representative of this, since this Diplomacy training is not because you have human or elf genes, but typically because as a Half-Elf you have to strive to be accepted in both societies, thus full humans and full elves don't get this) and the fact that you get the elf ancestry feats and the fact that you get the half-elf ancestry feats is worth losing your level 1 human ancestry. There's a slight but important difference.

*shrug* you have 3 lists you're trying to wedge into 4 slots. If there are only 4 super impressive feats between all 3 lists, that's more an issue with the lists than 1/2 elves and 1/2 orcs.

Almarane wrote:
For Gifted Speaker, Elven Speed and that sweet Inspire Imitation feat, yeah, I'd give away my Natural Ambition (except if there are two feats I critically need from level 1 and can't wait two levels), or my General training (same thing) or my Skilled (I trade one skill at first level for Gifted Speaker and Inspire Imitation, seems fair to me) without hesitation

Well that's nifty for you... What if I want to be a 1/2 aquatic elf for instance? Part snow elf? Any heritage that might fit my 1/2 elf/orc perfectly is forever unattainable because I'm not an actual race. All to gain something at 4th or 9th I might not even want or need. What's gained if I wanted to play a 1/2 elf for roleplaying reasons and am happy with the feats I would have gotten anyway? what did I gain then?


So its access to 3 ancestry tree elf, human, and half?
The half-elf ancestry feat also lets you choose basically 2 abilities that would normally be a ancestry feat each?
That doesn't seem to bad to me. What am I missing?


After re-reading my comment, I forgot to mention that you can see a benefit from level 5 by taking a half-breed specific feat. You don't have to take a human feat at level 5 then an elf feat at level 9. This point was suggested by my exemple, but not very clear.

I was not sure if it would be better to edit my previous post or not, so I made a new one.


I feel like I'm missing something here still. well the full document will be out soon so maybe things will clear up then.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Vidmaster7 wrote:

So its access to 3 ancestry tree elf, human, and half?

The half-elf ancestry feat also lets you choose basically 2 abilities that would normally be a ancestry feat each?
That doesn't seem to bad to me. What am I missing?

For starters, 2 base races are locked out of a heritage feat. Secondly, you only get 4 feats spread out over your 20 levels, so there isn't a huge boon there. As to the 2 abilities, compare to an elf: you get +2 hp's and pick from 3 ancestry trees and lose a heritage feat and 1/2 your race abilities... To me, it seems bad.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

This seem too ethereal let me see it in print and maybe I can see what your saying.

2 bases races are locked out? So they have showed the full racial abilities? I thought it was just a sampling. how are you losing the heritage feat aren't you just using it to get effectively 2 heritage feats form the half elf? See yeah I think I'm just confusing myself. I'm gonna need to see this in print I think.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
graystone wrote:
Almarane wrote:
You don't only gain access to 3 ancestry feat trees against one.

I quite clearly was comparing them to elves: they start off at a negative there IMO.

Almarane wrote:
To me, the fact that you gain abilities you couldn't otherwise (gifted speaker is the best representative of this, since this Diplomacy training is not because you have human or elf genes, but typically because as a Half-Elf you have to strive to be accepted in both societies, thus full humans and full elves don't get this) and the fact that you get the elf ancestry feats and the fact that you get the half-elf ancestry feats is worth losing your level 1 human ancestry. There's a slight but important difference.

*shrug* you have 3 lists you're trying to wedge into 4 slots. If there are only 4 super impressive feats between all 3 lists, that's more an issue with the lists than 1/2 elves and 1/2 orcs.

Almarane wrote:
For Gifted Speaker, Elven Speed and that sweet Inspire Imitation feat, yeah, I'd give away my Natural Ambition (except if there are two feats I critically need from level 1 and can't wait two levels), or my General training (same thing) or my Skilled (I trade one skill at first level for Gifted Speaker and Inspire Imitation, seems fair to me) without hesitation
Well that's nifty for you... What if I want to be a 1/2 aquatic elf for instance? Part snow elf? Any heritage that might fit my 1/2 elf/orc perfectly is forever unattainable because I'm not an actual race. All to gain something at 4th or 9th I might not even want or need. What's gained if I wanted to play a 1/2 elf for roleplaying reasons and am happy with the feats I would have gotten anyway? what did I gain then?

Let's not be passive-aggresive here :P

1st point : that's your opinion, and I can understand it :) This is a pretty subjective point.

2nd point : or maybe you want 3 super impressive feats in the half-elf list. Or you could just accept to lose 2 feats from the human to get 2 others. If there is a problem with the ancestry feat lists, then it's not only a problem of which feat is in which ancestry. It's a problem with the whole ancestry system. In my opinion, Heritage feats (meaning level-1-only feats) should not lock you out of essential mechanics for your build. But if you indeed absolutely need to take that one Elf Heritage feat to use an elf sword, yeah, that would be a problem, because Heritage feats would be too important for certain build.

3rd point : I genuinly don't see the problem here. You want to play a half snow elf ? Then take the Half-Elf feat and any snow-elf-themed feat later [edit : and present your character as a half-snow-elf to your table]. Same for the half aquatic elf. If you just want to roleplay as a half elf, and don't care about the mechanics, then I even more don't see the problem. It's like if you chose to play a Half-Elf in PF1 : you lose some options to gain some others, which maybe you didn't want.


She can't help it. Its in her genes. XD


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Vidmaster7 wrote:
2 bases races are locked out? So they have showed the full racial abilities?

You need to spend your heritage feat to become a 1/2 orc or elf, hence you can NEVER take one as a 1/2 orc or 1/2 elf.

Almarane wrote:
Let's not be passive-aggresive here :P

You seemed happy with the options, which is good for you. Just because they do, doesn't mean they excite me right? I'm not sure what was passive-aggresive.

Almarane wrote:
This is a pretty subjective point.

I think pretty much everything we've been debating has been subjective.

Almarane wrote:
2nd point

We're getting theoretical here as I at least haven't seen the full list of ancestry feats.

Almarane wrote:
I genuinly don't see the problem here. You want to play a half snow elf ? Then take the Half-Elf feat and any snow-elf-themed feat later [edit : and present your character as a half-snow-elf to your table].

You only get ONE heritage feat so you can't take the heritage feat for snow elf or aquatic elf. You LITERALLY are locked out of any other heritage as a 1/2 elf or 1/2 orc. So no, I just can't show up with a 1/2 snow or aquatic elf as the rules are set up.*

*As I haven't seen the rules, I do not know if snow/aquatic elves are heritage feats but I imagine they are the kind of thing they are meant to represent. You can replace them with ANY heritage that represents a human or elf subrace [like drow].


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Did that have half aquatic elf in pathfinder? You know it almost seems like human should be the template we are throwing on things instead of having one for every half that could be human just have Half human thrown on everything :p

So wouldn't the fix for that problem be to have a half snow elf feat instead of having it go off of the already full half elf one?

Oh and I think it was the "Oh thats nifty for you..." that she found to be a bit passive aggressive. That's my guess anyways.


graystone wrote:
Almarane wrote:
Let's not be passive-aggresive here :P
You seemed happy with the options, which is good for you. Just because they do, doesn't mean they excite me right? I'm not sure what was passive-aggresive.

Sorry if I misred you, your last paragraph's vocabulary made me think you were getting slightly angry.

graystone wrote:
Almarane wrote:
This is a pretty subjective point.
I think pretty much everything we've been debating has been subjective.

Fair point :)

graystone wrote:
Almarane wrote:
2nd point

We're getting theoretical here as I at least haven't seen the full list of ancestry feats.

Almarane wrote:
I genuinly don't see the problem here. You want to play a half snow elf ? Then take the Half-Elf feat and any snow-elf-themed feat later [edit : and present your character as a half-snow-elf to your table].

You only get ONE heritage feat so you can't take the heritage feat for snow elf or aquatic elf. You LITERALLY are locked out of any other heritage as a 1/2 elf or 1/2 orc. So no, I just can't show up with a 1/2 snow or aquatic elf as the rules are set up.*

*As I haven't seen the rules, I do not know if snow/aquatic elves are heritage feats but I imagine they are the kind of thing they are meant to represent. You can replace them with ANY heritage that represents a human or elf subrace [like drow].

Hmm... Indeed, that would be a problem. I hope you won't be locked out of being a snow/aquatic elf because you can't take a specific Heritage feat. In my opinion, you should choose your elf "archetype" when you get the elf trait and not need a feat to do so, since you hardly can be a snow AND aquatic elf.

Or, if you indeed need a feat to be a snow elf, I like Vidmaster's suggestion of making a half-snow-elf heritage feat. When you introduce a new elf tribe (and the feat to be part of this tribe), you could in the same time create the half-elf equivalent. This way you can be a half-snow-elf, without making it too complicated.


Maybe instead of giving Half-Ancestries access to the Ancenstry feats of oth parents, which is "more powerful" and therefore has to be balanced, give them a Half-Ancestry-Feat that allows them to pick one of either parent list.
This feat can be taken only once (or maye twice? once for each parent side?) so that there is no free picking of whatever they like. This might be more balanced.

And then the option to be a Half-Whatever should not cost a feat but instead be a additional option that sacrifices something else of the base Ancestry. But i don't know what.

I like this design solution at its core. But letting it cost a (THE) ancestry feat at first level is meh!


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:

I think at it's core it's a design issue. We've seen developers talk about how it's okay that there's a feat tax to play a half race because they're actually going to end up more powerful than a human, essentially human+.

Meanwhile, you've got fans of those races saying "I don't want to be a human+, I just want to play a half race and have a variety of Ancestry choices like everyone else at level 1".

Why not simply make them the same power level as the other races and not require a feat to balance?

^ THIS.

I want to play a Half-Elf, not a Human who becomes increasingly Elfyish.

If they statted them up like the other ancestries, and the only had access to the half-elf feats, would you be okay with that?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Almarane wrote:
I guess some people may think that way, in terms of roleplaying (but not mechanics, since mechanically you literally have feats from humans and elves/orcs).
You literally do not see any benefit until 9th for race feats...

You could have two ancestry feats at 5th if you really wanted.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Doktor Weasel wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

The Dragonlance book Races of Ansalon had a different take on half-dwarves (along with numerous other half-humans). I think the existence of this book is why Paizo folks so firmly deny the existence of half-dwarves, half-gnomes, and other similar races.

Was it that bad? I only dabbled a bit with Dragonlance, but they did seem to go a bit too far with making one-trick joke races. Like kender, gully dwarves and tinker gnomes. I think Paizo gnomes owe a bit to the tinker gnomes, but are toned down to be interesting without being always Chaotic Crazy and broadened to not just be focused on mechanical things.

It wasn't bad -- but it also wasn't open content that Paizo would have been able to use.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:

I think at it's core it's a design issue. We've seen developers talk about how it's okay that there's a feat tax to play a half race because they're actually going to end up more powerful than a human, essentially human+.

Meanwhile, you've got fans of those races saying "I don't want to be a human+, I just want to play a half race and have a variety of Ancestry choices like everyone else at level 1".

Why not simply make them the same power level as the other races and not require a feat to balance?

^ THIS.

I want to play a Half-Elf, not a Human who becomes increasingly Elfyish.

Eragon?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cyouni wrote:
UlrichVonLichtenstein wrote:

Reading through this issue again, and going over some of the comments and designer replies therein, I'm becoming less and less of a fan of what is a blatant Feat tax to play interesting and diverse characters.

I might be missing an obvious flaw with what I'm about to suggest, and I'm sure somebody will point it out if I am, but wouldn't a better alternative to this -again- blatant Feat tax, simply to allow players to create Half-bloods without paying any sort of tax?

i.e. Take the Human Ancestry, replace two features with that of the Elf (the exact function of the Heritage Feat) without actually needing to spend a Feat. Then I still have my Ancestry Feat available to me at first level. This would, in theory, quell the need to give *everybody* an additional Ancestry Feat at 1st level.

And before anybody cries "House Rule!" at me, I'm not a Dungeon Master. I'm a Player, therefore it's not my place to establish House Rules or make such requests of a Dungeon Master who hasn't had the opportunity to vet the idea for game balance. And why should I have to House Rule it, anyway, when 90% of people in this thread *CLEARLY* want their Ancestry Feat back?

Question: how is this not making half-bloods literally better than humans in every way?

Because you'd be replacing two Human features with two Elf features (for example). Basically, what I'm asking for is a "template".


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I will say, this does seem like it would work pretty well for stuff like PC werewolves.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
willuwontu wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:

I think at it's core it's a design issue. We've seen developers talk about how it's okay that there's a feat tax to play a half race because they're actually going to end up more powerful than a human, essentially human+.

Meanwhile, you've got fans of those races saying "I don't want to be a human+, I just want to play a half race and have a variety of Ancestry choices like everyone else at level 1".

Why not simply make them the same power level as the other races and not require a feat to balance?

^ THIS.

I want to play a Half-Elf, not a Human who becomes increasingly Elfyish.

If they statted them up like the other ancestries, and the only had access to the half-elf feats, would you be okay with that?

I mean, to me this is the best solution. You can then have Half-Elf (or Half-Orc) Ancestry feats that gives you a small benefit and allows you to pick from Human or Elf (or Orc) Ancestry Feats. Given the small number of Ancestry Feats you get I doubt it'll be worth it, but you never know.

Certainly better than turning two iconic races into a feat that augments humans.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

To pose the problem I have with the current Half-It feats another way.

If I had instead wanted to write a Half-Human Ancestry for Elf and Orc that followed the same principle as the half-elf/orc feats... What three Human Ancestral Features would I include in the initial benefits? The forth option being 'unique' to the hybrid per principle.

Ancestral Hit Die and Array don't change via the feat, Humans have no unusual senses to grant, and they are as slow or slower than orc and elf respectively... AFAIK, all that leaves as an option for initial benefits is their Ethnic Language (easily the worst of the three elf-based features available to half-elves).

Seriously though. If we included three unique features to fill out the subpar feature we got from Human (instead of 1 unique feature and 3 parent features):
Compared to a pureblood, even Half-Humans are still paying a precious, build-defining feat at 1st level for benefits they can't see until at least 5th with even more investment, or as late as 9th level. The benefit being having both Natural Ambition and whatever the best Elf/Orc ancestry feat on the list is. Although at least the Half-Human would actually have all of the 'free' benefits of their Elf/Orc base ancestry (instead of at most 2/3rds), as well as everything humans get (an ethnic language) and a 'unique' but minor racial feature to ease the emotional sting of not picking a more flavorful elf/orc ancestry feat (or two if you don't pick the ethnic language).


If we must have game-mechanics tied to Ancestry, and specifically Ancestry Feats, this does seem like the best option...


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Doesn't not being a "full race" more accurately reflect the lore though? this also means that by default half-orcs/elves get access to all the human/elf/etc/feats, when before they often only got a very limited list of racial feats/alternate racial options due to them being a bit of an edge case - in this system they have more options than the parent races.
I look forward to playing with this systems modularity when the full version is released.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Almarane wrote:
3rd point : I genuinly don't see the problem here. You want to play a half snow elf ? Then take the Half-Elf feat and any snow-elf-themed feat later [edit : and present your character as a half-snow-elf to your table]. Same for the half aquatic elf. If you just want to roleplay as a half elf, and don't care about the mechanics, then I even more don't see the problem. It's like if you chose to play a Half-Elf in PF1 : you lose some options to gain some others, which maybe you didn't want.

Even disregarding the idea that a Heritage feat for being a Snow- or Aquatic Elf would probably be a prerequisite for Snow- and Aquatic Elf Ancestry Feats, a large part of being a (Half-)Aquatic Elf is being able to swim better than most people. As in Aquatic Elves have a Swim Speed (and in PF1e the Half-Aquatic Elf ART still gave you basically half the benefits of a swim speed, a +4 Swim bonus and can always take 10.) That... is pretty well part of your physiology, which is exactly what Heritage feats cover. The feat class you're locked out of because Halfbloods are a feat tax.

And as far as the idea of just printing more and more "Half-Elf" feats... Well for starters, that's going to create a ton of clutter very quickly. But even beside that... So how does that work? Which of the default abilities is worth being stripped away from other Half-Elf heritages? About the only thing I generally can see as worth stripping away is the "Trained in Diplomacy" but there is little chance that's going to be replaced with anything other than "Trained in X Skill".

And of course, then you also get into the idea of other Halfbloods down the line (since they said that this was a possible way of implementing all sorts of stuff from PF1e, from the Core Halfbloods to the Native Outsiders, probably including Dhampir, Changelings, and Skinwalkers too). Let's look at a theoretical Tiefling Heritage feat.

Tiefling - Feat 1
Heritage, Human
Your bloodline is tainted by Fiendish blood. You gain the Tiefling and Outsider traits. Select two of the following benefits: Fiendish Resistance (you gain Resistance 2 to Cold, Electricity, or Fire, your choice), Fiendish Tongue (you add Infernal or Abyssal to your languages known, your choice), Stealthy (you are trained in Stealth), or Darkvision (you can see 60 feet in non-magical darkness). In addition you can select Tiefling and Human feats whenever you gain an Ancestry Feat.
Special You can select this feat twice. The second time, it loses the heritage trait and you gain the other two benefits.

This is taking options straight off the default Tiefling in PF1e, adjusting the Resistance slightly (because I doubt they'll do Resist 5 at first level anymore, let alone 3 of them, but that's speculation), and setting it to the Half-Elf template. Now, working off that... how do you build a Tiefling feat with a Prehensile Tail, one of the most popular ARTs in PF1e IME? Or Vestigial Wings? Or Bite or Claw attacks (another hugely popular one in PF1e, though I suspect that's mostly because of how nat weapons stack)? What default trait do you swap out? And of course, if you want more than one (you could easily have all 3 in PF1e)... well, with the current system whether they're a full Ancestry or a feat tax, you're pretty much outta luck, since even as a full Ancestry you could only take one.

And to take that another step, of course the various Tiefling Ancestries would be their own form, that actually has been mentioned as a possibility (though I would again refer back to my earlier comment about cluttering the heck outta things). So for the Heritages, swap out the skill for the Heritage's appropriate skill, focus down the language, maybe swap or focus the Resistance as appropriate (like Devil being Resist Fire only). But then... Gods forbid you want an Erinyes-kin with vestiges of your ancestor's wings. Or even just a Pitborn with a tail. It quickly becomes a case of "pick one or the other, you cannot create interesting or flavorful combinations." Which is why I continue to argue that, at the very least, we should have two Ancestry feats at level 1, so that we can combine Heritages and Physiological attributes, or multi-heritages (yes I'd like it, having a character that's a most unusual child of a Drow and a Wood-Elf, or a Snow and Aquatic Elf, these are cool and interesting concepts IMHO), or a Heritage and a Cultural, or any number of other interesting combinations.


Honestly, mixed heritages like half-races could be done with a sort of 'archetypes for races' like how archetypes replace either general or class feats (can't remember atm) but instead taking a mixed heritage on any base race allows for things like dwarf aasimars, elf tieflings, and the like.

You'd simply be able to take the 'racial archetype' heritage line of feats in conjunction with your base ancestry. Expanded ancestral feat chains could give us our different races that share the same subtypes as well like drow, duergar, and snirveblim (spelling?).

Like Racial Heritage (Human) in PF1, but for everyone.

Just gotta tweak them for balance.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
master_marshmallow wrote:

Honestly, mixed heritages like half-races could be done with a sort of 'archetypes for races' like how archetypes replace either general or class feats (can't remember atm) but instead taking a mixed heritage on any base race allows for things like dwarf aasimars, elf tieflings, and the like.

You'd simply be able to take the 'racial archetype' heritage line of feats in conjunction with your base ancestry. Expanded ancestral feat chains could give us our different races that share the same subtypes as well like drow, duergar, and snirveblim (spelling?).

Like Racial Heritage (Human) in PF1, but for everyone.

Just gotta tweak them for balance.

I think that's basically what they were going for with the Halfbloods here TBH, the biggest issue just comes back to, again, you only have 5 Ancestry feats across 20 levels, and Heritage feats (which the Ancestral Dedication would have to be) can *only* be taken at first level and currently locks out any other Heritage (the source of anything physical) feats.


Every race getting two ancestry feats is becoming more and more appealing to me. It might require scaling back some starting abilities (which then they regain via a feat), but such a system would also allow for much more flexibility in the long run, especially when racial variants arise.

So Elves, for example, might have their current PF2 base abilities split into two sections: a part which is inherent to all Elves and another which standard Elves can pick up via their first ancestry/heritage feat.
Then they use the other ancestry feat as normal, coming out even with the current iteration of Elf.
When looking at the shift from PF1 to PF2, this appears to be something Paizo has done already to some extent: turning racial abilities into feats.

So when Drow Elves & Aquatic Elves & Snow Elves and so forth start coming along, the creature can keep the core Elf abilities, have an Elf ability tied to their new race, and still have an ancestry feat (perhaps chosen from a different set of feats).
And this would still leave room for the creature to pick up Half-Elf ancestry, so there could be Aquatic Half-Elves, in an example which yes, supposes that Elves might take the Half-Elf feat too because that just makes sense, right?

So right off the bat PF2 could have room for Mountain Dwarfs, Hill Dwarfs, Deep Dwarfs, and so on w/o each sub-race having to be a step behind the default Dwarfs in dwarfiness. They'd rather be a step sideways. And sub-races which are a bit stronger, like Duergar, might require both feats! (I'm not saying the CRB would necessarily feature any variants, but rather there'd be a system which easily handles introducing them.)

So in my ideal Half-Elf situation, the creature could:
-Choose Human or Elf as base creature.
-Take heritage feat which unlocks Half-Elf abilities & access.
-Still have ancestry (even heritage) feat to become more human or more elfin, or to be tied to one of the sub-categories of either (such as if there's an Ulfen ancestry feat or Spire Elf feat.)

I can see a sticking point if Humans don't have enough abilities to insert into feats, but since iterations can match the current schema w/ only the addition of flexibility & future-proofing, I do not see a downside to attempting this.


GentleGiant wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
GentleGiant wrote:


Ahh, good then. We can skip all ancestry feats then and just give each ancestry the ability scores adjustments they have at present. Nothing else, since people seem to only take their ancestries for the interesting backgrounds and the RP opportunities they provide.

And to me it should be that way. I should be able to take the race I want without caring about the numbers or feats.

OH WAIT, "Half Elf" is right next to these two other feats in the H section of Feats that clearly show all the numbers you are getting from the word go. It's almost like they want us to compare and contrast the benefits of taking Half Elf Feat over the other H feats it's next to instead of just picking it. Like every other feat. Heck, how many new players are just going to sail past the H section of feats?

It is not "I will be a Half Elf" it is "Will I be a Half Elf" more now.

Wha... what? It's a heritage feat, just like other heritage feats. If it's going to show up right next to the other H feats, so are the other heritage feats. Or, more likely, it's going to be in the ancestry section. Again, why this constant trying to make up things based on an assumption that everything is going to be like the worst thing you can possibly imagine?

I mean, that's kinda the point I was making.

It's on the Feat list, Ancestry Feat list that is, is probably going to be grouped alphabetically. I don't think this is an assumption to be made up, it's just a good way to organize things.

So you're have Ancestry Feats in, A B C D E and so on groupings. And that's where the Half Feat is going to be. Not in a full race splash page, not with an iconic character next to it, not with background lore, examples, and more info next to it.

No if going by PF1, which I think Racial Traits might be the closet example though Race Feats maybe, Half-Elf/Orc is after Giant Ancestry but before Heart of the Fey. Just another stat buff to consider, another thing to pick from a list of Feats.

Now, how is this "making things up"? Or is that just the constant trying to downplay any complaints as the person saying "The sky is falling"?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Did that have half aquatic elf in pathfinder?

Yes. It's even on the list of 1/2 elves. I've played a 1/2 aquatic, drow, Ekujae, Mordant Spire and Snowcaster 1/2 elves to be precise. And NONE of that can be done without the feat you use now to become a plain old 1/2 elf.

Vidmaster7 wrote:
So wouldn't the fix for that problem be to have a half snow elf feat instead of having it go off of the already full half elf one?

Sure, if you want to double the number of those kind of feats. You'd have one for elves and then the 'special' one for 1/2 elves. Seems like that's takes up time and space that could be used for better thing: you just have to make the 1/2 races right from the start and not steal their heritage feat.

Vidmaster7 wrote:
Oh and I think it was the "Oh thats nifty for you..." that she found to be a bit passive aggressive.

Maybe? I meant it as that: it was good she liked it. That was too early in the morning for clever quips. ;P

Almarane wrote:
Sorry if I misred you, your last paragraph's vocabulary made me think you were getting slightly angry.

No worries. Its always hard to convey tone on the interwebs. ;)

masda_gib wrote:
Maybe instead of giving Half-Ancestries access to the Ancenstry feats of oth parents, which is "more powerful" and therefore has to be balanced, give them a Half-Ancestry-Feat that allows them to pick one of either parent list.

I'd be fine if it gave you a SINGLE option from the expanded options if that that meant to could be it's own race.

KingOfAnything wrote:
You could have two ancestry feats at 5th if you really wanted.

That isn't giving you 'access to multiple ancestries'. Until 9th, you have gotten nothing special as you've puck off a single list like everyone else.

Liberty's Edge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
graystone wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
So your saying that even with the ancestry feats giving a number of benefits its still less benefits overall then what just a full human or full elf would have?
It pretty much feels like you're playing an elf except someone stole your ancestry feat before you even started for vague promises that much later it'll be cool and helpful to get race feats from multiple races from 9th level or after...

To clarify something: Mark Seifter clarified earlier in this thread that you can spend General Feats on Ancestry Feats, so you can (in theory) take advantage of the multiple lists as early as 5th level, rather than needing to wait for 9th.

I don't really disagree with the core argument you're making, but it seems worth noting to get the level range right.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
You could have two ancestry feats at 5th if you really wanted.
That isn't giving you 'access to multiple ancestries'. Until 9th, you have gotten nothing special as you've puck off a single list like everyone else.

No. Pick a human feat at 3rd, then an elf feat at 5th. That's one from each list at 5th.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
You could have two ancestry feats at 5th if you really wanted.
That isn't giving you 'access to multiple ancestries'. Until 9th, you have gotten nothing special as you've puck off a single list like everyone else.
No. Pick a human feat at 3rd, then an elf feat at 5th. That's one from each list at 5th.

Unless the feat list I was given and have been going off of is wrong, that is... half right?

I mean yes you can pick from either Ancestry tree at level 3 but you don't get an Ancestry feat at level 3. You get a General, that can be turned into Ancestry.

So the question then becomes; is General more or less than Ancestry for the level 3 slot?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

In PF1 it was very rarely worth taking a race specific feat instead of a more generally applicable feat, no matter how flavorful or interesting that feat is. I wonder if that's going to remain the case.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
PossibleCabbage wrote:
In PF1 it was very rarely worth taking a race specific feat instead of a more generally applicable feat, no matter how flavorful or interesting that feat is. I wonder if that's going to remain the case.

As to be expected, there are exceptions to this norm, to be fair.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
MerlinCross wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
You could have two ancestry feats at 5th if you really wanted.
That isn't giving you 'access to multiple ancestries'. Until 9th, you have gotten nothing special as you've puck off a single list like everyone else.
No. Pick a human feat at 3rd, then an elf feat at 5th. That's one from each list at 5th.

Unless the feat list I was given and have been going off of is wrong, that is... half right?

I mean yes you can pick from either Ancestry tree at level 3 but you don't get an Ancestry feat at level 3. You get a General, that can be turned into Ancestry.

So the question then becomes; is General more or less than Ancestry for the level 3 slot?

Whether it is worth it depends on what you value about the character. The fact remains that if you want to benefit from having access to two ancestry lists, you can realize that benefit at 5th.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Michael Sayre wrote:
Meraki wrote:


I know this would take up more space/wordcount and therefore might not be feasible, but what if the halfs got their own list of feats (maybe with some overlap with their parent ancestries) instead of picking from both? That would address the power concerns while also making each one feel distinct.

They do. Playing e.g. a half-elf means that you get access to human ancestry feats, elven ancestry feats, and your own unique half-elf ancestry feats.

I know, I was saying that instead of that, they could only get their own feats rather than being able to pick from the human and elven feats as well. (Maybe be able to gain access to the others by taking another feat, but not having it inherent to the ancestry.)


2 people marked this as a favorite.
KingOfAnything wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
graystone wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
You could have two ancestry feats at 5th if you really wanted.
That isn't giving you 'access to multiple ancestries'. Until 9th, you have gotten nothing special as you've puck off a single list like everyone else.
No. Pick a human feat at 3rd, then an elf feat at 5th. That's one from each list at 5th.

Unless the feat list I was given and have been going off of is wrong, that is... half right?

I mean yes you can pick from either Ancestry tree at level 3 but you don't get an Ancestry feat at level 3. You get a General, that can be turned into Ancestry.

So the question then becomes; is General more or less than Ancestry for the level 3 slot?

Whether it is worth it depends on what you value about the character. The fact remains that if you want to benefit from having access to two ancestry lists, you can realize that benefit at 5th.

And we're back to the "Options are good because they are options, even if they are bad" idea.

That, to my knowledge and some experience, isn't how PF1 is played by the community. I don't expect that to radically change for PF2.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
To clarify something: Mark Seifter clarified earlier in this thread that you can spend General Feats on Ancestry Feats, so you can (in theory) take advantage of the multiple lists as early as 5th level, rather than needing to wait for 9th.

Didn't see that. This makes me MORE worried instead of less. I was hoping they'd be a bit special with only getting 4 total, but if they are just a subcategory of general then expectations for them have plummeted dramatically.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Shinigami02 wrote:
I think that's basically what they were going for with the Halfbloods here TBH, the biggest issue just comes back to, again, you only have 5 Ancestry feats across 20 levels, and Heritage feats (which the Ancestral Dedication would have to be) can *only* be taken at first level and currently locks out any other Heritage (the source of anything physical) feats.

Except Archetypes don't have Feat Taxes associated with them- they trade out feature for feature. And, that's actually what I was asking for, either an Archetype or Template system. I'd be happy with either.

Though, I'm reminded of the sobering fact that Goblins are a full-blooded playable Race/Ancestry, while Half-Elves are *NOT*...

Go home, Paizo. You're drunk.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
UlrichVonLichtenstein wrote:
Though, I'm reminded of the sobering fact that Goblins are a full-blooded playable Race/Ancestry, while Half-Elves are *NOT*...

Yes, it's a sad, sad day that goblins get a bigger writeup than 1/2 elves and 1/2 orcs.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
To clarify something: Mark Seifter clarified earlier in this thread that you can spend General Feats on Ancestry Feats, so you can (in theory) take advantage of the multiple lists as early as 5th level, rather than needing to wait for 9th.
Didn't see that. This makes me MORE worried instead of less. I was hoping they'd be a bit special with only getting 4 total, but if they are just a subcategory of general then expectations for them have plummeted dramatically.

You can only spend General feats for level 1 Ancestry feats, as I recall. Higher level ancestry feats can still be awesome.


graystone wrote:
UlrichVonLichtenstein wrote:
Though, I'm reminded of the sobering fact that Goblins are a full-blooded playable Race/Ancestry, while Half-Elves are *NOT*...
Yes, it's a sad, sad day that goblins get a bigger writeup than 1/2 elves and 1/2 orcs.

Are you really surprised, though? The goblin love around here borders on fetishism sometimes.


While I don't like the idea of Half-Orc and Half-Elf being ancetry aeats, I will say that the concept of humans with non-human ancestry feats as a whole has some potential. Humans do have a habit of breeding with almost anything that is mechanically compatible, so it would make sense to give humans feats that represent non-human ancestry without making them a full member of a half-human race. Like an Ifrit ancestry feat that reduces fire damage, which could be explained in game as something like "my great grandmother was an Ifrit, that's why I can pick up hot objects and not get burned." I like the idea so much I might just homebrew up a few feats like that for my PF1 home game.

Liberty's Edge

graystone wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
To clarify something: Mark Seifter clarified earlier in this thread that you can spend General Feats on Ancestry Feats, so you can (in theory) take advantage of the multiple lists as early as 5th level, rather than needing to wait for 9th.
Didn't see that. This makes me MORE worried instead of less. I was hoping they'd be a bit special with only getting 4 total, but if they are just a subcategory of general then expectations for them have plummeted dramatically.

General Feats seem to be the ones you can use for almost anything (they can also be used for Skill Feats), so I'm not sure this means much.

And the Ancestry Feats we've heard of (including the whole Gnome list) all seem pretty solid.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm sort of wondering how we represent "Half-Elves are good at multiclassing" when the half-elf is down on feats *and* multiclassing is now feats.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I'm sort of wondering how we represent "Half-Elves are good at multiclassing" when the half-elf is down on feats *and* multiclassing is now feats.

Different Feat pools. The Half Elf is down an Ancestry Feat, while Multiclassing exclusively uses Class Feats. Half Elves, like Humans, can turn one Ancestry Feat into a Class Feat, and might have the option to do other stuff with multiclassing, depending.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
General Feats seem to be the ones you can use for almost anything (they can also be used for Skill Feats), so I'm not sure this means much.

I have to imagine that moving from a specialized list with limited access to a general "use for almost anything" means the ceiling is much, much, much lower.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
And the Ancestry Feats we've heard of (including the whole Gnome list) all seem pretty solid.

I was hoping for unique and special and that not something you say about something you pick up with something called "general".

KingOfAnything wrote:
You can only spend General feats for level 1 Ancestry feats, as I recall. Higher level ancestry feats can still be awesome.

I haven't heard any of this so I have no way to judge how right/wrong it is.


Moro wrote:
Are you really surprised, though? The goblin love around here borders on fetishism sometimes.

Sadly, no I am not. :(

Silver Crusade Contributor

13 people marked this as a favorite.
willuwontu wrote:
If they statted them up like the other ancestries, and the only had access to the half-elf feats, would you be okay with that?

Honestly... yes.

I thought about this last night. Of all the things I consider "special" about half-elves, access to parent ancestries' feats wasn't very high on the list. I'd rather see half-elf as its own ancestry, with an option that lets them access one or both parents' list, than have to pay up front for the privilege of accessing feats I might neither need nor want. Same goes for half-orcs, tieflings, changelings, and everything else... I want to be this thing first and foremost, and have an option to expand into my other heritages.

651 to 700 of 768 << first < prev | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Playtest / Pathfinder Playtest Prerelease Discussion / Paizo Blog: Born of Two Worlds All Messageboards