Let's Dish Gish

For a long time now, online forums have used the word "gish" to describe a class that is essentially a fighter/magic-user from the old 1e days.

Every so often we have cause to discuss such a class in meetings here at the office, which brings up a problem.

What is a better name for the "gish" class concept?

THE RULES
---------

1. NO NONSENSE WORDS: I don't want to replace the "gish" with a "schmonktarn," thanks.

2. NO PORTMANTEAUS: This is two words smooshed together: Spellblade. Hexblade. Nothanks.

3. ONE WORD: All other base classes are ONE word. This one should be no different.

So, what's a better name for these guys that fits all three criteria?

Rereading your challenge Erik, I'm not sure anymore what you want exactly. A name to define a base class (like fighter, mage, roge, etc) or a name to define a class concept?

Because it does make a hell of a difference. Most people have been looking for class names, like Warlock, which despite the heavy baggage, would probably be the best fit.

Now, if what you want is a tag for a class concept, like caster, melee, etc., simply talking about an hybrid, or as Kolokotroni wrote, a contraction like Mash, would probably fit better.

So, which are you looking for?

Sorcelator
Witchalok

2. NO PORTMANTEAUS: This is two words smooshed together: Spellblade. Hexblade. Nothanks.

Actually, a portmanteau is when you take parts of two words and put them together, such as "spork" and "chocoholic". The examples you give are simply known as compound words.

If you don't believe me, check wikipedia. (BTW, "wikipedia" is itself a portmanteau!)

Sorcelator

Witchalok

See, those are actually portmanteaus.

Something i noticed :
Single names are usually used for base classes, with a very few exceptions (dragon shaman, duskblade, favored soul, psychic warrior, soulknife, spellthief, spirit shaman, swashbuckler, warmage...).
Composed names (compound, portmanteaux, we) are usually used for prestige classes.

So the question is: Would this class be a base one or a prestige one?

W E Ray wrote:

For me, I'll always stick with Monte Cook's Mage-Blade. Best name for a Gish. Ever.

Not only an awesome name, but the best representation as a base class I've yet to see in print.

Couldn't agree more. This to date is the best representation of a fighter / mage single class concept hands down.

Yeah, if Paizo were really cool they'd talk to Monte Cook and get him to allow them to do Mage-Blade.

I vote:

Warlock recycle
Warden
Scion

My suggestions:

Faust
Incanter
Cabalist
Entrancer

So it seems the key here is to find a single word that conveys the concept of the class, presumably to be used as a base class (hopefully) at some point...

I have to say that Stabacadabra was an LOL moment for me. There is truth in comedy and that word pretty much sums up the concept. It's a dude who stabs things and casts spells, hopefully at the same time.

When you look over all of the other base class names, they all pretty much convey the concept immediately in one word:

Bard – Performance dude
Barbarian – Angry crazy dude
Cleric – Religious dude
Druid – Nature dude
Fighter – Fighting dude
Ranger – Outdoors dude
Rogue – Sneaky dude
Sorcerer – Magic dude
Wizard – Magic dude

It's only the Monk and Paladin that might trip people up just a bit. A western monk doesn't fit the idea of what the class is about, but with just a little bit more nudging you can switch over to an eastern idea and then things click.

Paladin is a little more tricky in that the last time the word was used on a popular level pre-rpg era was in the western tv show “Have Gun – Will Travel” in the 50s and 60s. It's earlier usage as a kind of champion in the middle ages was a bit obscure, but it mapped well to the western ethos.

Even still, plop someone fresh to rpgs down to the table and tell them that you're playing a Paladin and they very well might ask, “What's a Paladin?”

Monk and Paladin do fit, but you do have to educate yourself a bit more to get the point of those names.

The Sorcerer and Wizard are distinct from each other largely for mechanical reasons, but overall the concept of each class is the same, someone who casts spells. So even though someone might not be able to distinguish the mechanics between the two, they do get the general gist of what to expect.

The real problem with the Gish is that it's a level removed from reality. Nothing in history or popular culture, at least in the western mind, has pushed the idea of a guy who stabs things while using magic. Stabbing things is summed up well, casting spells is also summed up well, but the both together is a contemporary idea.

People on this thread have dug up some interesting suggestions, but the problem with a lot of these unique words is that the person who is fresh to the game who hears the word is still going to end up asking the question, “What is a [blank]?” and then you'll have to say, “a warrior who uses a lot of magic,” or something to that effect.

So I don't really see a way of pulling it off without at least a compound word. You've got to mash two distinct concepts together to make the name self explanatory. It's the nature of this beast. Any unique single word is going to require an endless repetition of clarification, which seems far worse than some kind of combination word or words.

So the question is: Would this class be a base one or a prestige one?

If it ain't base then it's a whole lot of FAIL.

Adding a +1 for the below as best so far...

Warder or Warden
Myrmidon
Dragoon

A Warder or Tempest would be fine.

Too bad that the Witcher would collide with the witch class and it's probably patented as a class name. Althought I have to say that Geralt and his Wiedzmin colleagues are a perfect fit.

The warlock is an interesting thought

by the way, Mr Mona, does this mean the boys at Paizo are mulling over a "gish" base class?

by the way, Mr Mona, does this mean the boys at Paizo are mulling over a "gish" base class?

It's funny, that "just for fun" clause on Mona's "challenge." I wonder if anyone believes it.

For me, I'll always stick with Monte Cook's Mage-Blade. Best name for a Gish. Ever.

Forgotten Realms Sword-Mage worked pretty well too. And let's not forget the elven BladeSinger

My picks of the suggestions thus far:

archon, warlock, savant

One I haven't heard, and know it isn't perfect but it sounds kinda cool:

armiger

And let's not forget the elven BladeSinger

A synonym for Munchkin if I ever saw one. Were fun as hell tough.

Now, if what you want is a tag for a class concept, like caster, melee, etc., simply talking about an hybrid, or as Kolokotroni wrote, a contraction like Mash, would probably fit better.

So, which are you looking for?

A class name.

It is amazing to me how many of the suggestions on this thread violate one or more of the criteria I listed in the original post.

But given how much we've been struggling with this in the office, I am not terribly surprised. :)

Ainslan wrote:

Now, if what you want is a tag for a class concept, like caster, melee, etc., simply talking about an hybrid, or as Kolokotroni wrote, a contraction like Mash, would probably fit better.

So, which are you looking for?

A class name.

It is amazing to me how many of the suggestions on this thread violate one or more of the criteria I listed in the original post.

But given how much we've been struggling with this in the office, I am not terribly surprised. :)

Dude. How 'bout some props for the people who DID stick to the criteria? There's been some really good suggestions out there. (And I don't mean mine. Most of the good suggestions kick my suggestions' asses. With spellfire AND kicking.)

And especially given your criteria are entirely arbitrary and nonsensical (ESPECIALLY since it rules out "Stabacadabra" which is just WRONG), but people still came up with some good, by-your-rules stuff, they deserve getting more of a mention than the people with poor reading comprehension.

Wow. Just... just dude. Way to diss the people trying to help you out. For free.

Wow. Just... just dude. Way to diss the people trying to help you out. For free.

I think when someone says "give me a name that's not A, B, C, or D," and at least half of the responses are one or more of those unallowed categories, it's okay for Erik to make a joking gripe about it, and doing so is not an insult to the people who actually did what he said.

EM: "I want to hire a babysitter, but this person can't be male, a felon, from New York, or a vegetarian."
Random Guy: "How about my cousin Mike? He stabbed a guy in Brooklyn once but he's pretty cool other than that."
EM: WTH?

SNIP Wow. Just... just dude. Way to diss the people trying to help you out. For free.

Hey, at least it was said with a smile. LOL

{walks off like John Wayne...}

This is almost painful to read. Its like a whole auditorium full of people all trying to remember someone's name at one time:)

I've got nothing for this, by the way, but I do have to say I hate 'warlock' for this purpose. I'm just not a big fan of repurposing names for things with established meanings.

DeathQuaker wrote:

Wow. Just... just dude. Way to diss the people trying to help you out. For free.

I think when someone says "give me a name that's not A, B, C, or D," and at least half of the responses are one or more of those unallowed categories, it's okay for Erik to make a joking gripe about it, and doing so is not an insult to the people who actually did what he said.

And I think when you ask for help, and there are people who offer the help you ask for, you thank them. You don't ignore them in favor of ONLY griping about the people who didn't help you, in a way that isn't clear whether you're joking or not.

EM: "I want to hire a babysitter, but this person can't be male, a felon, from New York, or a vegetarian."
Random Guy: "How about my cousin Mike? He stabbed a guy in Brooklyn once but he's pretty cool other than that."
Random Guy 2: "I know a girl from a bison-farm in Maryland, never even got a speeding ticket.
Random Guy 3: "How about that woman from San Francisco? Loves her hamburgers and has no police record."
EM: "A male stabber from Brooklyn! That's not what I asked for at all, you jerks!"

Realize I'm probably getting all overreacty, but man... There's been a lot of awesome stuff in this thread, and I thought, Wow! I hope they get some good ideas from this. And then I was just really disappointed to see the first response from the OP-staff member have nothing but negativity in it. It just made me really sad, and made me feel sorry for the people who worked hard to find stuff that actually did fit the criteria.

How about using a Norse title for warriors such as the "Merkismathr" who would be the standard bearer. This was an honored position given to warriors who were believed to have magical powers.

One I haven't heard, and know it isn't perfect but it sounds kinda cool: armiger

This is full of win.

Dude. How 'bout some props for the people who DID stick to the criteria? There's been some really good suggestions out there. (And I don't mean mine. Most of the good suggestions kick my suggestions' asses. With spellfire AND kicking.)

And especially given your criteria are entirely arbitrary and nonsensical (ESPECIALLY since it rules out "Stabacadabra" which is just WRONG), but people still came up with some good, by-your-rules stuff, they deserve getting more of a mention than the people with poor reading comprehension.

Wow. Just... just dude. Way to diss the people trying to help you out. For free.

Dude.

Sorry that I didn't mention that lots of the suggestions by folks who followed the rules are excellent, and we will almost certainly use one of them.

For free.

Dude. :)

See, proof that Paizo just asks for feedback so they can print other peoples work without paying for it. Dern pirates. :)

Warlock doesn't totally suck, but other posters are probably correct, it has connections to other concepts that might be confusing.

I'll cast my vote for one of the following:

Magister
Arcanist
Warder

They are common sounding names, very generic... I can see them becoming household names. The majority of other class names used in Pathfinder RPG and classic old-school D&D are generic too, ya know? I mean, you can't really get more simple than "Fighter" can you? I yet somehow that utterly lame sounding name for a class has become a household word. Someone says "He's a Fighter," and you know exactly what that is.

DeathQuaker wrote:

Dude. How 'bout some props for the people who DID stick to the criteria? There's been some really good suggestions out there. (And I don't mean mine. Most of the good suggestions kick my suggestions' asses. With spellfire AND kicking.)

And especially given your criteria are entirely arbitrary and nonsensical (ESPECIALLY since it rules out "Stabacadabra" which is just WRONG), but people still came up with some good, by-your-rules stuff, they deserve getting more of a mention than the people with poor reading comprehension.

Wow. Just... just dude. Way to diss the people trying to help you out. For free.

Dude.

Sorry that I didn't mention that lots of the suggestions by folks who followed the rules are excellent, and we will almost certainly use one of them.

For free.

Dude. :)

S'okay, dude. :)

Thanks.

PS: If "dude" ends up getting used, I apologize to the whole world. ;)

Erik Mona wrote:

DeathQuaker wrote:

Dude.

Dude.

"dude"

Where's my car?

If "dude" ends up getting used, I apologize to the whole world.

The thing is, I'm not Lebowski, man!

You are indeed overreacting. Erik put a smiley face in his post, which is the Internet's way of conveying humor and indicating that something isn't overly serious, even if his observation is spot on for a large number of posts here. Especially when you look up the actual meaning of a lot of the legitimate suggestions and the definition of the word is obviously NOT a "spellcasting warrior." Templar is a great example; it's a cool name, but I'd rather use it to make up a class that's an actual religious knight type class than "waste" or "Use up" the name on something it's not.

Sweet.

Warden

Warlock (as in one who has broken his vows and uses weapons)
Herald
Dervish

Acrobat
Archer

Arcanist
Assassin

Mystic
Ghazis

double checking the rules that Erik put forth.

I still like
Warlock - Has Baggage
Warden _ which I have pushed for a long time now.
Warder - I could live with
Arcanist - I kinda like

Hehe, that's fun stuff.

Let's keep trying...

Magog

Maestor

Eddie (Now I'm listening to Maiden :) )

Ok, I think I've gotten the list of names that at least *almost* follow the rules. Sort of.

Mago
Magico
Xum

I like Phage and Jannisary.

Neo? He even has a card:
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Neo_the_Magic_Swordsman

Darth? Vader was a gish.

Spawn? He did have fighting + magic.

Vakeros? Somewhat foreign sounding though.

Gifted? Gish are awesome.

Jack? Why: because Jack is sweet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIwDa3GBMhM

Ok, I think I've gotten the list of names that at least *almost* follow the rules. Sort of.

** spoiler omitted **

Thank you for this summary!

If this more than merely an exercise, and instead is a quest for a class name, then former WOTC base/prestige classes probably will not be acceptable (Dervish, Justicar, Kensai, Warlock, X Arcanamach, Y Warder, Z Warden, etc.)

Let's focus on the unique. (And, yes, I did offer some.)

Brainstorming is awesome...

I miss college...

Algoz

Fitzs

Some of these lists I'm just not getting.

"I have some ideas! Administrator... Architect... Aardvark... Bacterium... Boozer... Bum... Borogove... Bandersnatch (oops, that's a compound word)... Butcher... Baker... Candlestickmaker (oops)... Dentist... Destructor (oops, that's made up)... Dynamite..."

I'll give it a try -

what I haven't seen ye

Conduit - as in magic via the sword or through his body as a force

Archaic - old/uncommon style of fighter who meshes magic and swordplay

Umbrate - foreshadow

Enigma - contradiction, puzzle

Others have mentioned Arcanis, Warder or Warden (or Starship Warden), I like these.

Long as it's Arcanis and not Arcanus, .....this game is already difficult to play as it is.

Magiër
Paragnost
Exotery
Magisch
Tovenaar

I did not read through all the suggestions, but how about Immortal. :P

Ascalon
Excelsior

.... Brainfreezee.... damn...

So, does stabacadabra win or what? what do I get?

The biggest problem is that while I understand the reason for each of the criteria, they are unrealistic.

I understand the desire for a word with a real-world origin. It will require altering the meaning of the word. Paladins, rangers, clerics, druids, and bards are not traditionally users of magic in the real world. All of them that had some connection to mysticism are of religious origin (druid & cleric).

So the best place to look is secretive military groups whose techniques seemed like magic. The best of those I can think of are templar, ninja, and monk. The asian traditions probably are a good place to look, kensai might be a good choice.

I also like mountebank, but that would be better for a wizard/thief.

The best word really is jedi, which I know you can't use because of copyright.

PS: I do like Jannisary a lot.

Marshall Jansen wrote:

Ok, I think I've gotten the list of names that at least *almost* follow the rules. Sort of.

** spoiler omitted **

Thank you for this summary!

If this more than merely an exercise, and instead is a quest for a class name, then former WOTC base/prestige classes probably will not be acceptable (Dervish, Justicar, Kensai, Warlock, X Arcanamach, Y Warder, Z Warden, etc.)

Let's focus on the unique. (And, yes, I did offer some.)

Since it is not possible for Paizo to mechanically reproduce those classes/prestige classes, why not create their own unique vision of any of them? I mean, honestly WotC spewed out a LOT of stuff using up many perfectly serviceable names. Not that Paizo should use one 'just because', but they shouldn't rule them out 'just because' either.

I did not read through all the suggestions, but how about Immortal. :P

Class names like that actually help make a DMs job much easier to figure who gets targeted with what.