MultiClass Archetypes III: The Return of the MCA

Yep. I even tell people you could just use them as archetypes...

I tried that with a buddy. Think his mind was blown away at how many 1-20 classes there was to pick between on your site, especially how cool they are!

Welcome to the thread Ramza Wyvernjack. Yes, in essence, MultiClass Archetypes are like alternate level 1-20 classes, but like archetypes, swap out abilities from the Primary Class with those of the Secondary Class (or new class abilities meant to enhance the combination the combination.) Thus, MultiClass Archetypes. :D

Our work hase been ongoing for about 2 years, and it's a labor of love. Please feel free to look over our entire repetoire and use them in your games. We'd love to know how they do, since we can't play test our 100+ MCAs. Comments I believe can also be made on the individual MCAs on our wiki.

Welcome to the thread Ramza Wyvernjack. Yes, in essence, MultiClass Archetypes are like alternate level 1-20 classes, but like archetypes, swap out abilities from the Primary Class with those of the Secondary Class (or new class abilities meant to enhance the combination the combination.) Thus, MultiClass Archetypes. :D

Our work hase been ongoing for about 2 years, and it's a labor of love. Please feel free to look over our entire repetoire and use them in your games. We'd love to know how they do, since we can't play test our 100+ MCAs. Comments I believe can also be made on the individual MCAs on our wiki.

It's a gestalt game, so we should be able to try plenty. If possible, I'll see if I can get some feedback from my fellow players, our gm seems giddy bout the new possibilities. Personally I'm itching to try all of the classes, but since I have to be realistic, I'll start with Siege Marshall!

FIRE DEM GUNS!!!

It's a gestalt game, so we should be able to try plenty. If possible, I'll see if I can get some feedback from my fellow players, our gm seems giddy bout the new possibilities. Personally I'm itching to try all of the classes, but since I have to be realistic, I'll start with Siege Marshall!

FIRE DEM GUNS!!!

Sounds great. Just be aware that on the Wiki site, any MCA with an (*) has NOT gone through our rigorous balancing critiques, and aren't yet in their "official" form. Anytihg posted without an (*) is in its completed and final form. Would love to hear how the Siege MArshal plays out though.

Ramza Wyvernjack wrote:

It's a gestalt game, so we should be able to try plenty. If possible, I'll see if I can get some feedback from my fellow players, our gm seems giddy bout the new possibilities. Personally I'm itching to try all of the classes, but since I have to be realistic, I'll start with Siege Marshall!

FIRE DEM GUNS!!!

Sounds great. Just be aware that on the Wiki site, any MCA with an (*) has NOT gone through our rigorous balancing critiques, and aren't yet in their "official" form. Anytihg posted without an (*) is in its completed and final form. Would love to hear how the Siege MArshal plays out though.

I'll keep an out for it. Top of the hat I can suggest something, the weapons are stated to count as natural attacks, which is great, but it doesn't say if they are primary or secondary, which is important to know what fires first and what takes penalty.

Did I read right that we have first to buy an extra limb, like another pair of arms, and then buy the Firearm Appendage? I assume if so, that the default starting appendage for quadraped is the head, since there's no tail, and both legs are used for slam?

Do you actually want such things posted here, or is there a place for that on the wiki?

I'll keep an out for it. Top of the hat I can suggest something, the weapons are stated to count as natural attacks, which is great, but it doesn't say if they are primary or secondary, which is important to know what fires first and what takes penalty.

Did I read right that we have first to buy an extra limb, like another pair of arms, and then buy the Firearm Appendage? I assume if so, that the default starting appendage for quadraped is the head, since there's no tail, and both legs are used for slam?

Do you actually want such things posted here, or is there a place for that on the wiki?

Posting here is fine, Ramza.

Regarding the slam attacks, for biped its the arms, quadruped is the legs, and serpent is the head (sort of a head slam). That's always been my understanding.

As to the firearm appendage, you don't need to buy an extra limb. All the free evolutions are part-in-parcel of the base form. All other evolutions not included in the base form must be bought, including extra barrels or extra firearm apendages. Thus, depending upon the base form, there is a limited number of firearm appendages one can have before you need to buy extra limbs, an extra head, or an extra tail. Essentially, biped is your best bet, since you can put up to 3 firearm appendages on it before having to buy extra limbs/heads.

Biped - either an arm or head can be the appendange. If an arm, that arm can still be used as a slam attack, since the firearm is part of the limb, usually the forearm. Think Astro Boy if you've ever seem him use his weapons.

Quadruped - has to be the head by default.

Serpent - can be either the head or tail.

As for the Firearm Appendage description, it should have read primary attack, not natural attack:

Firearm Appendage (Ex): One of the cannon eidolon’s appendages (arm, head, or tail) functions like a certain type of firearm, depending upon the cannon eidolon’s base form. This firearm can be discharged and reloaded using the appropriate actions. A cannon eidolon’s firearm appendage is considered a primary attack. The cannon eidolon can select this evolution multiple times, but must have the appropriate number of appendages.

Thanks for you interest and feedback.

Well, I tend to misread things, or have a different take on it sometimes, but it's nice to help.

What threw me off is that usually, it's one natural weapon per Limb, so I automatically assumed that I had to use Firearm Appendage on a limb with no natural attacks already on it.

If I got it correctly, my fresh new quad eidolon should have;
Two slam, frontal legs.
One cannon, head (default firearm upgraded via evolution)
Two rifles, frontal legs,(using firearm appendage and Steady Hand to allow using rifles)
Various Evolutions from default eidolon list to give it more utility now that he's stocked on guns. Tempted to get elemental damage so he can fire lasers.

Exper Gunner(ex) sounds a bit odd, it basically repeats what the Eidolon has, which is more or less the Gun Training from gunslinger, when the text about bonus and ephasizing it's plural firearms would suffice?

Do we fire extra barrels with separate attacks, or one attack and add the damage?

What level are you playing your Siege Marshal at? Just be sure you have all the necessary Evolution and level requirements for your evolutions.
The Cannon evolution requires 6th level, and the Deadly Range and Improved Damage evolutions. Otherwise, your calculations should be correct, depending on level and evolution points available.

The following Expert Gunner rewite should make it clearer.

Expert Gunner (Ex): The cannon eidolon adds a +1 bonus on damage rolls made with its firearms. This evolution can be selected multiple times. Each additional time it is selected, it adds an additional +1 bonus on damage rolls made with its firearms. This evolution can only be applied once to the cannon eidolon’s firearm at 5th level, plus 1 additional time for every 5 levels the siege marshal possesses. The siege marshal must be at least 5th level to select this evolution.

Extra barrels, from what I understand, are fired simultaneously in the same round, and at the same target.

I'm just glad to see someone that is a gunslinger liker (or lover). Most of my MultiClass Production partners don't really seem like the gunslinger, so it's good to have someone else to work off of that understands and likes the class.

We're playing level ten at the moment. It's a gestalt game, so it's bit chaotic, but it's mean to be more fun than serious. To be honest I didn't like Gunslinger before, it was a bit dull for me, the deeds weren't very interesting at all. But with these versions, it's waaay more interesting. The rogue one seems to be a badass sniper, while summoner one is riding living artillery.

I have to admit I giggled madly at the thought of Siege Marshall and Synthist. Now, I don't care that much for numbers, I optimize a lot as on a novice level, but that's because I've read the books a lot for over a decade, and having bad stat choices is annoying now, that doesn't mean i want a one shotting machine.

Back to the point. I love the idea of an Eidolon from Ironworks, mines probably gonna be like a large wolf, the cannon in the mouth for siege, and two rifles on the shoulders for some sniping as we close in. Just the image gives me goosebumps.

I messed up with the cannon, I'll be going over my evolution points later, and looking a bit into evolution feats as well.

Big Lemon wrote:

Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

I meant the bonus to AC from the ability, not from the character's Wisdom modifier.

I thought the same about Uncanny Initiative, just wanted to see what you thought.

But the point is, the Monk gets to add Wisdom to his AC from the start, which helps put his AC on par with armored characters at level one. Kensai get to add INT to AC to replace armor. The Blade Disciple doesn't get a second ability score to AC, so all he has is Dex, making his AC worse than every other class.

Lemon, the Blade Disciple ability states:

AC Bonus: Starting at 1st level, a blade disciple gains the monk’s AC bonus ability. This ability replaces light armor proficiency and medium armor proficiency.

As you stated before, the monk's AC Bonus ability states:

AC Bonus: When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

This means he's getting the EXACT same ability, he's not getting anything less than what the monk does. The Blade Disciple adds his Wisdom from 1st level. When writing up the abilities for MCAs, we don't over explain things, much like they do in the archetypes. He gains the monk's AC Bonus ability, as it is written in the Monk class, at 1st level, which means he gets the Wis bonus at 1st, and the increase at 4th all the way to 20th. Then, he's also getting the Blade Guard ability to add to that as a specific MCA ability.

So Wis + Dex + AC Bonus Ability + Blade Guard. At 20th level, with a Dex of 20 (+5)and a Wis of 20 (+5) for...

I... think I copy-pasted that without realizing. My mistake. I didn't intend for him to have that originally so I wasn't factoring that in.

No problem. Happens to me too. I assume that is the type of numbers you're looking for here, with an unarmored sword demon? Might be better than the monk though. However, the MAD helps balance things some. As a sword demon he's going to want high Dex and Str, maybe good Con, then his Wis for additional AC, then there is Int for skills...MAD.

With all the recent gunslinger talk...

Well, I think it's about time. Expect something good tomorrow, guys. Something truly western.

With all the recent gunslinger talk...

Well, I think it's about time. Expect something good tomorrow, guys. Something truly western.

Don't you dare D: My gm will hate me if I change class. Again!

@Elghinn Lightbringer
I was brainstorming some concepts to sketch for the eidolon, and realized something when I thought about some classes like alchemist, Vindicator or the new Aasimar feats.

Any chance to somehow get some evolutions in there that can give line and cone attacks to the eidolon, and I know there's breath attack, but I was thinking perhaps an (ex) version of it that works with the firearms, counting against AC rather than elemental resistance and reflex save?

Barrage(ex): the eidolon goes a*!!~$* and fires all his firearms(except cannon), roll a single attack and use the result against everyone caught in a 30ft cone, those hit roll AC as normal, and Cover still applies, but not concealment. The damage is 1d8 per firearm barrel. X amount of times per day.

Giga Beam(su): This requires Cannon and Energy Attacks evolutions. The eidolon charges up his cannon with elemental energy and fires it off as a 60ft line attack. X amount of times per day.

Let's ruin your GM's day, then.

Elghinn, since you did the editing and formatting, I give you the honor of posting my latest design! >:D

Let's ruin your GM's day, then.

Elghinn, since you did the editing and formatting, I give you the honor of posting my latest design! >:D

I don't love you anymore :(

Yes you do.

Now let's go back and you can show me how you roll the dice >:D

... For your game. FOR THE GAME. <.< >.>

Yes you do.

Now let's go back and you can show me how you roll the dice >:D

... For your game. FOR THE GAME. <.< >.>

Is the archetype added? What's the name/combination?

Elghinn'll post it here when he gets back. Until then, speculate. >:3
The name, however, is 'Desperado'.

So it's a You/wallet archetype. I see, very clever >:)

Right, bad jokes aside. I bet 10gp it's a Gunslinger/Bard!

Ding ding ding!

We have a winner!

Ding ding ding!

We have a winner!

It said so on the wiki :)

You cheater.

Cheatyface McCheaterson!

You cheater.

Cheatyface McCheaterson!

Bah, humbug. It's not really cheating when it's stamped out for the public!

<Insert Yo Mamma joke here>

But anyway, all jokes aside. This one... well, I think I'm gonna use the chance before it's posted to point out exactly why I don't do full BAB classes, particularly the gunslinger, much.

What a lot of people miss is that IN GENERAL, the tactical options scale to the BAB. For example, you don't see fighters, rangers, or gunslingers with a lot of area/group buffing/debilitating/manipulation (AGDM, we'll call them for now) effects. Sure, they get them, but they're very limited and tend to be less variable. See: Ranger Spellcasting.

This is both a necessity and a difficulty in design. To give a full BAB class a wider range of AGDM, there must be a fairly heavy cost- just as there would be to give a Sorcerer a better BAB.

A lot of people don't equate BAB to and similar effects, but it's obvious in the way the alchemist, rogue, and similar classes equate to Fighter. Think of AGDM as similar to spellcasting, and you'll get the idea.

For a caster-lover like me? Well, it's just something I don't usually get into. When I do, though, it tends to be... well, you'll see when the Desperado comes >:3

But yeah, ADM is the issue I have with fighter and gunslinger and similar. Just to clear up what Elghinn said earlier about not a lot of gunslinger-lovers; it's not about the gunslinger, at least for me.

I'm not a full-bab user myself. I never once tried a class like barbarian or paladin or cavalier. I love utilites and abilities, and the closest full attack type character so far must be the Siege Marshal. I've read firearms rules and it's turning out to be a pretty scary eidolon, I was afraid he might be useless due to reloading times, but apparently he can reload all his basic guns as a free action, so woopie.

So far, for classes, I've most enjoyed Alchemist, Magus and Oracle, I love the mix of things they can do. Sure my alchemist didn't have as much to hit as the fighter, but it didn't really matter after I applied a dozen poisons to my enemies with throwing knives.

I have to admit I'd love to work out a Gunslinger/alchemist combo, focusing on Mutagen, it's something about shapeshifting, or at least partial beast-out that's appealing to me. Probably because of all the fun I've had with Master of Many Forms in 3.5

Thanks for the post tho, I hadn't considered that +bab was that heavy, I never liked flat bonuses, and despise feats like Weapon Focus or Point-Blank that force me to get it, unless they are a bit more creative, like Arcane Strike.

Yeah, don't expect that free reload to be kept once we get to the review phase on it. <_<

And full BAB classes CAN be quite fun. I've played rangers to great effect and enjoyed it. But yeah, 90% of my characters are casters or do disturbing things with rogue and the like. >:3

Yeah, I already removed it and used one of the eidolon feats on it instead. My most fun character, I have to admit, tho it was with a few bonus feats like Flaws from 3.5, an alchemist with a dex mutagen. Sure he lost Wis, but his Dex was insanely high, especially when he was a Beastmorpher with wings and climb speed or whatever he needed.

Can you think of any way to make the eidolon count as a construct so I can upgrade it and use it as a quadraped armor?

Totally not stealing the idea from MGS4.

@Siege Marshal
I need to double check this, because it might be scary, in a way.
The ability says you can add dex to a gun you selected at 1st level, which is a pistol, a musket or a blunderbuss, all Early Age. While default let's you select one type, such as Rifle, Revolver or Blunderbuss.

We're playing in an advanced setting for guns, so using a musket when my buddies are using a Rifle might be eeeeh?

@Raiderrpg
Any chance you can paste the class in a google doc or such and link it, a friend would really like to take a look.

Can't edit post. I realized there was a breath attack for guns, I feel silly. Mostly because it says "cannon eidolon is unleashed from t!&@ firearm instead." Tehee, you he said boobies.

What are the odds of a Clockwork Mage coming but with Alchemist instead?
Never been a fan of wizards, and I got a thing for Mutagen & Discoveries. (Especially Simulacrum and Doppelganger)

@Siege Marshal

I need to double check this, because it might be scary, in a way.
The ability says you can add dex to a gun you selected at 1st level, which is a pistol, a musket or a blunderbuss, all Early Age. While default let's you select one type, such as Rifle, Revolver or Blunderbuss.

We're playing in an advanced setting for guns, so using a musket when my buddies are using a Rifle might be eeeeh?

Like the Gunslinger, everything in this MCA is base early firearms. If you are using advanced firearms, then replace the early versions with the advanced, namely revolver, rifle, and shotgun. Pretty simple. Yup, it will probably be scary, but that's the issue with advacned firearms isn't it? A cannon eidolon with a bunch of revolvers, pepperboxes, or pepperbox rifles will be deadly.

The odds of a Clock Work version of Summoner/Alchemist is not very likely I'm affraid.

Ramza Wyvernjack wrote:

@Siege Marshal

I need to double check this, because it might be scary, in a way.
The ability says you can add dex to a gun you selected at 1st level, which is a pistol, a musket or a blunderbuss, all Early Age. While default let's you select one type, such as Rifle, Revolver or Blunderbuss.

We're playing in an advanced setting for guns, so using a musket when my buddies are using a Rifle might be eeeeh?

Like the Gunslinger, everything in this MCA is base early firearms. If you are using advanced firearms, then replace the early versions with the advanced, namely revolver, rifle, and shotgun. Pretty simple. Yup, it will probably be scary, but that's the issue with advacned firearms isn't it? A cannon eidolon with a bunch of revolvers, pepperboxes, or pepperbox rifles will be deadly.

The odds of a Clock Work version of Summoner/Alchemist is not very likely I'm affraid.

Torchlight series and Eberron has totally spoiled my perception of alchemist, for me it seems like the natural class to tinker with constructs, vat grow some beasts, perhaps craft a bag of holding.

Ugh.

Finally able to post this for Raider. Here is his new MCA, the Desperado. Need a flavor blurp Raider when you get a chance. Enjoy all you Gunslinger efficianados.

Do you guys do PrCs? Like take a base class and sub in PrC abilities? Is it on the horizon and are you accepting early submissions?

That's a different beast, Byrd. We work with core and base classes, though we occasionally borrow ideas from prestige classes.

PrC's tend to be more focused than even the most single-lined of our MCA's, so it'd take a different design philosophy; let alone the varying power level.

@ Desperado: Can we change the name of Desperado's Hum to Desperado's Something less Specific? Just seems odd that the ability suite is called Desperado's Hum, but then there's a hum, a whistle, and a pose. So Desperado's...

Call
Tune
Way
Song

Also a typo in that ability: "Most his hums..."

Do you guys do PrCs? Like take a base class and sub in PrC abilities? Is it on the horizon and are you accepting early submissions?

As Raider said. At least in this thread, we're all about MCAs. I am personally interested in the design philosophy of creating PrCs as I have one in particular I want to work on. Perhaps you could start another thread Byrd for PrCs...

I'mma go over the Desperado here quick, for those who need a hand understanding it or just want more info on it.

The bardic ability here basically costs them a chunk of their utility, attack, and damage in exchange for being able to play with the battlefield- providing ADGM in order to enhance the party.

Each buff is somewhat specific and reliant on the hum. A desperado, therefore, has a somewhat barbarian-like outlook; while singing, they are better than the gunslinger. While not singing, they are worse. A desperado might be able to use the full effect of their abilities for about two fights each day.

The Hum itself is weak, but once they get Whistle they can immediately begin moving around the battlefield with ease, and once they hit sixth level make two attacks with even the heavier firearms. The lack of consecutive turns and limit on options is a balancing factor, making sure they can't use this for many insane munchkin gimmicks.

The Pose, on the other hand, is where they get the first real debuff- and can REALLY mess with groups. With no HD limit, they can effectively max out intimidate to screw a LOT of enemies- or just put a few ranks in to mess with at bar fights.

Dramatic Pause gives them a way to add damage to the group- but thanks to the one-round sanctuary, it also lets them AVOID it. A very good way to buy time for the party to come and assist, or to let debuffs/etc run out.

Crescendo is weaker than dramatic pause, but doesn't interrupt the Desperado's actions nearly as much. It also heals up the party a little, so can be very handy when your bacon is in the fire.

Finally, Deadly Climax. This allows a Desperado to say 'no' to any group of mooks. I wanted a SoD/SoS ability that seemed fair and effective, and 1 HP + Prone fit the bill. The HD limit and rounds cost means the Pose is better when you just want to get an advantage, but Deadly Climax is far superior for cleaning up the street.

Each AGDM here provides the Desperado with an effective, if specific, bonus that allows for a multitude of strategies. While they aren't near a bard in true battlefield buffing, they can still serve a small battlefield control/enhancement purpose for a party that's desperate for it.

And this is how you add AGDM to a full BAB class- be specific, be concise. Allow for versatility in how it can be USED, not in the abilities themselves. While there are other ways to do it, this one has the least fallout and the least balancing concerns.

... Long post, but I hope this helps our fellow designers. >:3

Heya, OSW!

And sure, I'm alright with a name change. "Desperado's Tune" has a nice ring to it...

Ooooh, and make it work with maracas!
While personally I never liked the bard class, it does give off a really nice vibe, I might use it for a bad guy!

During some chargen yesterday, me and a friend talked about Clockwork Mage and Siege Marshall, while I love both the classes, there were a few things that were just too good to be true. I don't know if you wanna hear things like that or if it's rude?

We do, we do.

We do, we do.

We're using the classes as they are for most part because frankly, we love them. My buddy went heels over head for siege marshall so I had to change my choice (because I'm nice one a month), and looked at clockwork mage. While at first glance it seems really cool, and the eindolon gave me this vibe of Hellboy 2 golden army constructs, it also seemed a bit too good. The template for the construct gives it a bunch of immunities, and on top of that, clockwork adds to them. That's if I read right, we were under the impression that the eindolon gains Construct(clockwork) type, which is a 20RP(advanced races) type, an aasimar is 15, so it might be a lot for a pet who also levels up with you. We houseruled for the moment that it has the (Constructed) subtype, which is 2rp, gives some benefits, and makes it vurnerable to things that affect Constructs.

The other thing was the cannon Eindolon. We felt the base form was too strong, a normal quad has 1 bite attack for 1d8, while this one has 2d8 worth of slams + a free firearm, god forbid he takes a shotgun for a 30ft touch attack cone each turn, or three of them. The fact that firearms are free, and turn into natural weapons means that they increase with size as well, so a Large evolution is basically Improved Damage for firearms.

Instead we ruled it to use original base forms except aquatic, and any firearm must be physically aquired and then gifted/given to the eindolon, who then assimilates it, making it part of him(natural weapon). The catch is that firearms don't scale with size and firearm appendage does not need specific limbs, you just need to stay under the max natural attacks ruling for eindolon. We're still unsure bout cannon, as it is, it's more efficient to put in a shotgun or a musket with an Imp Damage evolution, which gives nearly same damage and faster reloading.

The construct subtype sounds like a proper fix, and I might just push for us to use that.

As far as the rest...

Elghinn, you gots some 'splaining to do! </insert laugh track!>

The construct subtype sounds like a proper fix, and I might just push for us to use that.

As far as the rest...

Elghinn, you gots some 'splaining to do! </insert laugh track!>

The numbers might be a bit off since we use advanced firearms, such as a rifle rather than a musket, which can be reloaded each turn, but my friends eindolon would have three rifles with size upgrade from Large evolution, and one more size step because of Improved Damage, and it wasn't to cheese it or anything, but because he wanted big guns on a quadraped, the artillery style I think, which would result in three huge rifle shots each turn at +8 bab(they are all primary natural weapons).

It's level ten characters, but still pretty strong considering the die + touch ac, I'm just glad I persuaded him to use rifles and not shotguns!

Both the Clockwork Mage and Siege Marshal have only gone through a preliminary balance check thus far, thus the (*) beside their names on the Wiki. They HAVE NOT gone through the rigorous balancing critique amongst the whole MCP crew which usually reveals issues like these. It's great to have people using our MCAs and reporting back on the kinks so we can fix them. That's Awesome!

We may need make changes to some of the base form free evolutions, sound like we may also need to make the fireams not be natural attacks, or replace slam attacks with firearms. All that can be fixed by reworking the issues that have arisen. Perhaps we need to limimt number of firearms the eidolon can have? Make tha part of the base form?

Might be an idea for the MCP move the Clockwork Mage and Siege Marshal up the queue to do a critique of them.

Sounds like the Construct type plus Clockwork subtype is pretty brutal. I didn't have the ARG when it was created or the Seige Marshal, looks like it might just come in very handy with the reworks of the Clockwork Construct and Cannon Eidolon as well.

@Ramza: Where is this Constructed subtype (2 RP) you are refering to? Is it in the ARG? Only found the Half-Construct (7 RP) which may be another option.

I've looked at the Clockwork creature template on the SRD from Tome of Horrors Complete by Necromancer Games. It's only a CR +1, but it gives the Construct type, which by the ARG is a 20 RP calculation. Looks out of balance with the more updated ARG. So that's a no go.

Only found "Constructed" as part of the Inevitable Subtype description on the SRD, but its also granting the Construct type, which doesn't help us. However, Inevitables are considered both outsiders and constructs.

"Constructed (Ex): Although inevitables are living outsiders, their bodies are constructed of physical components, and in many ways they function as constructs. ..."

Again, a no go.

Reading this brought an idea to mind. Why don't we have the Clockwork Construct begin as a partial-living construct. Say, it's an living, sentient constructed outsider with qualities of the clockwork subtype, but DOES NOT gain the construct type. These outsiders could be interested in evolving into true constructs, and the only way to do so is to join with a Clockwork Mage, who, through upgrades, can transform the outsider into a true construct. Sort of a reverse of Data from Star TReck, these guys are living beings, with partial construct aspects, who are trying to become ultimate sentient consctruct. That could be a 20th level ability for the Clockwork Construct - True Construct. The renamed "Clockwork Eidolon" could be considered as a "construct" for the purpose of spells, such as soothe construct, control construct, etc., but as I said, does not have the Construct type, until it reaches 20th level.

We could also use the Half-Construct subtype from the ARG as the base instead, and have it evolve into a true Construct throughout it's 20 levels. Personally, I think one of these two would be the best options, since they still stay true to my concept of a construct commanding spellcaster, but would also spread the evolution into a construct over 20 levels.

Reading this brought an idea to mind. Why don't we have the Clockwork Construct begin as a partial-living construct. Say, it's an living, sentient constructed outsider with qualities of the clockwork subtype, but DOES NOT gain the construct type. These outsiders could be interested in evolving into true constructs, and the only way to do so is to join with a Clockwork Mage, who, through upgrades, can transform the outsider into a true construct. Sort of a reverse of Data from Star TReck, these guys are living beings, with partial construct aspects, who are trying to become ultimate sentient consctruct. That could be a 20th level ability for the Clockwork Construct - True Construct. The renamed "Clockwork Eidolon" could be considered as a "construct" for the purpose of spells, such as soothe construct, control construct, etc., but as I said, does not have the Construct type, until it reaches 20th level.

I like this option.

Heya, I'm Ramza's buddy who's looking at the Siege Marshall with him. Had a chance to sleep on it (he sprung it on me last night) and looking at it with fresh eyes I can see that some of the major problems are definitely from using Advanced Firearms.

A Rifle (which RAW you don't have to pay for) for example is reloaded as a free action does d10 damage base damage and has a Touch Attack range of 400ft. That steps up to 2d8 with Improved Damage or Large (if damage scales with size as other natural attacks do). or 3d8 if you take both. But as you said earlier it wasn't really designed for Advanced Firearms in mind. Part of the problem with advanced is that since they are all reloaded as free actions then you could easily have quite a few firing at the same time every round. While it may not make sense I think the easiest fix for that would be to say that the Cannon Eidolon can't use advanced firearms. In fact, I might just say it's better to not use them in a campaign at all. Much as I LOVE the look of a revolver the pepperbox could just as easily be a US Civil War era revolver where you still had to load each chamber with powder and ball like a musket.

There are a few other questions/suggestions we came across that I figure I can bring up.

• Firearm as natural attacks, even using early firearms it seems like far too much to have them scale with size. They should probably still count against the limit of natural attacks (though maybe they should have their own separate limit) but a pistol scaled up for size with Improved Damage will be doing 3d6 at range. Perhaps Touch Attack range could go up with size instead? Two at Large and three at Huge?

• For the starting firearm is it the players choice of type on starting? When you obtaing an second Firearm Appendage are the additional firearms free or do they need to be bought?

• All of the Base Forms start with slams instead of claws/bite? This seems strange as it makes their melee potential higher than others Eidolons that don't have the ranged options. It might only be one Evolution point so maybe it's moot, but figured I'd mention it. I do agree that legs should probably be allowed to slam/kick. Also a quick poke around the forums seems to suggest that one pair of arms gets a single Slam whereas Claws get two attacks (if this is the case then the Biped and Quadruped getting two Slams is a much bigger jump in power). Best rational I could find for ditching two primary attacks for one would be that you're running up against your maximum number of attacks.

• Does Gun Training apply to just a single Firearm type or all? If single what determines what it applies to?

• One thing that really threw us off line was Lightning Reload, partly because I misread it. I didn't notice that it's on barrel per round. We had this image of the Eidolon stomping around reloading everything including it's cannon as a free action and making full attacks every round. The only thing that I think could still use some clarification in the text is when the Eidolon gets the Deed, is it from the start of at 14th lvl when it would normally get Improved Evasion?

• The descriptions of some of the Evolutions could be made clearer as to whether or not they affect all the firearms or just one per purchase. Steady Hand and Reliability come to mind for this.

• As I said, not sure if Steady Hand applies to all Firearm Appendages or must be purchased for each. Nowhere in the description of Firearm Appendage does it say the are restricted to one handed when evolved, but the existence of Steady Hand certainly suggests it. So presuming that is the case does one purchase of Steady Hand apply to all appendages of do you buy it once for each?

• Cannon is a little strange to me, it scales alright if you're upgrading a pistol but not if it's a musket. After buying the required evolutions on a pistol (which I assume are supposed to be applied to the firearm that becomes the cannon) damage stays the same, you gain 15ft of range and drop your critical from x4 to x2. On a musket your damage drops from 3d6 to 2d6, you lose 5ft of range, and critical again drops from x4 to x2. Now, once you moved up to Improved Cannon the Cannon gains the edge in everything except critical. Greater Cannon is just brutal :D
  
• The ability of the cannon to be fired twice in the same round with the addition of an Extra Barrel probably compensates for the initial drop in damage, but think I would still suggest removing the Improved Damage req from Cannon and require it for Improved Cannon instead. I like this as it lets you improve your cannon damage above what a pistol would be at prior to upgrading it to a cannon and it equals what it would be if you upgraded a musket.
  
• There is also nothing mentioned in Cannon whether or not it uses Touch Ac at any range increments. Might be cool if Cannon is one increment like all early firearms, Improved is two, and Greater is three? Hmm, typing it I'm thinking that 300ft Touch Ac for 6d6 is probably too high. The base increment could always be adjusted or it could stay at two (or keep them all at one).
  

I think that's it, hopefully my frequent format edits didn't jumble up my actual thoughts. I have proofread it a couple of times, but I always seem to read what I meant to type even when that's not what's there.

The thing about the Clockwork subtype is the catch. It's a CR+1 TO Constructs, so it's in addition to whatever a construct is, it was bit hard to notice I admit, and I had to triple check to make sure.

The Constructed subtype is a new 2RP race quality added with the Android race in Inner Sea Bestiary, it also has some new Robot types, with lasers pew pew.

By reducing the evolution pool size by 2, you could make the eindolon an Outsider(constructed) which would give him some outsider immunities, fit with him being from another plane, and he'd be affected by things that affect Constructs, playusibly making him a walking sentient robot that's still vurnerable to a few things. Remember that to make a basic Clockwork, it requires a level 12 caster creator, which at level one might be tough to pass. At level 10, remove Aspect and add Clockwork Ascension, giving him Outsider(clockwork). At level 20th, he gains Construct(clockwork) type, with perhaps some immunities left out for balancing, and when he drops below 0 hit points the Mage may lose a spell to give it Regeneration equal to the spell level for X amount of turns.

It's one way to deal with it anyhow.

@Claus
~Waves!

Heya, I'm Ramza's buddy who's looking at the Siege Marshall with him. Had a chance to sleep on it (he sprung it on me last night) and looking at it with fresh eyes I can see that some of the major problems are definitely from using Advanced Firearms.

A Rifle (which RAW you don't have to pay for) for example is reloaded as a free action does d10 damage base damage and has a Touch Attack range of 400ft. That steps up to 2d8 with Improved Damage or Large (if damage scales with size as other natural attacks do). or 3d8 if you take both. But as you said earlier it wasn't really designed for Advanced Firearms in mind. Part of the problem with advanced is that since they are all reloaded as free actions then you could easily have quite a few firing at the same time every round. While it may not make sense I think the easiest fix for that would be to say that the Cannon Eidolon can't use advanced firearms. In fact, I might just say it's better to not use them in a campaign at all. Much as I LOVE the look of a revolver the pepperbox could just as easily be a US Civil War era revolver where you still had to load each chamber with powder and ball like a musket.

OK, hope everyone is ready for a WALL of text.

Yeah, I think that might be a very simple fix to a lot of the problems. It was designed based on Early Firearms afterall. Even with the restriction, GMs using advanced firearms cand rule to use it anyways and then they need to deal with the repercutions. :D

There are a few other questions/suggestions we came across that I figure I can bring up.

Firearm as natural attacks, even using early firearms it seems like far too much to have them scale with size. They should probably still count against the limit of natural attacks (though maybe they should have their own separate limit) but a pistol scaled up for size with Improved Damage will be doing 3d6 at range. Perhaps Touch Attack range could go up with size instead? Two at Large and three at Huge?

I've been thinking of making the firearm NOT be a natural attack. Then, firearms would function like any other firearm attack made by a PC gunslinger, using the eidolon's BAB for firearm attacks. Thus, level 1-5, the eidolon would get 1 firearm attack, 6-13 would be 2 firearm attacks per round, and 14+ would be 3 each round. This way, it can make a number of natural attacks according to the usual natural weapon rules, but the firearms are used as weapons like other PCS. So, it's an either/or thing, either make natural attacks, OR use your firearm.

So this.

Firearm (Ex): The cannon eidolon gains a number of firearm attacks as indicated by its base form’s base attack bonus. Firearm attacks are not considered natural attacks, except for the prerequisite of the Improved Damage evolution. The Improved Damage evolution has no effect on the Cannon, Improved Cannon, or Greater Cannon evolutions, but is a prerequisite of the Improved Cannon evolution.

For the starting firearm is it the players choice of type on starting? When you obtaing an second Firearm Appendage are the additional firearms free or do they need to be bought?

Yes, this is the player's choice, and restricted by the base form. So, a biped could choose either a one-handed or two-handed firearm. A quadruped a one-handed firearm, same with serpentine.

Each form starts with one free firearm appendage. You must use evolution points to obtain additional firearm appendages, plus have the correct number of appendages (limb, lail, head), and if you don't have the right number, you need to purchase the, Maybe a firearm apendage should cost more than 1 evolution point. Maybe 2 or 3? When I picture these things at 20th level, at their pinacle, I see a biped with two cannons on its arms/shoulders, a quadruped with two on its shoulders/front legs. Perhaps limiting the firearms to only two per eidolon? PC gunslingers have a limit to the number of guns they can use/have through cost, and limbs. Maybe we should implement the same with a rule.

I'm thinking of restructuring how the forms use the apendage. I think maybe only limbs and tails should be used with the firearm appendage, not heads. Thus, a bided could have two firearm appendages before needing additional limbs, a quadruped could have 4 (but I only see the front legs actually working), and serpent would get one. When I visualize these guys, I see the biped with either 2 guns on the shoulders, or their forearms function as the guns. Quadrupeds, I can only see their front legs functioning as guns, or their fore-shoulders. Serpent, only their tails would really work. Also thought about ditching the Sperpent form for this too. Thoughts on this?

Thinking about changing Firearm Appendage to read thus, and make it a 3 or 4 point evolution:

Firearm Appendage (Ex): One of the cannon eidolon’s appendages (arms, front legs on a quarduped, or tail) functions like a certain type of firearm, depending upon the cannon eidolon’s base form. This firearm can be discharged and reloaded using the appropriate actions. A cannon eidolon’s firearm appendage is considered a primary attack. The cannon eidolon can select this evolution twice, but must have the appropriate number of appendages.

This limits the eidolon to only 2 firearms, and by increasing the cost to 3 or 4 makes obtaining another firearm appendage really worth the extra ranged touch attacks it gets. This may also help with issues from advanced firearms?

All of the Base Forms start with slams instead of claws/bite? This seems strange as it makes their melee potential higher than others Eidolons that don't have the ranged options. It might only be one Evolution point so maybe it's moot, but figured I'd mention it. I do agree that legs should probably be allowed to slam/kick. Also a quick poke around the forums seems to suggest that one pair of arms gets a single Slam whereas Claws get two attacks (if this is the case then the Biped and Quadruped getting two Slams is a much bigger jump in power). Best rational I could find for ditching two primary attacks for one would be that you're running up against your maximum number of attacks.

I've often wondered about slams. If it’s supposed to work as 1 slam per 2 limbs (which I could see) since the damage of 1 slam is about twice that of a bite or single claw attack. I've changed it to 1 slam attack.

I just checked the Slam evolution, and it only works with the Limbs (arms) evolution, not Limbs (legs), so we probably need to go back to the original claws or bites free evolutions for the base forms.

I think I'm going to change the Base form entry to this.

Base Forms
Each cannon eidolon has one of three base forms that determine its starting statistics. A siege marshal may select from either the biped, quadruped, or serpentine base forms. Each of these forms otherwise function as those listed in the eidolon description of the Advanced Player’s Guide (see p. 60). A siege marshal cannot select the aquatic base form. A cannon eidolon gains the following additional attacks and free evolutions according to its base form.

Biped
Additional Attack 1 firearm (one-handed or two-handed); Additional Free Evolution firearm appendage (one-handed or two-handed), limb (arms), limbs (legs), slam.

Quadruped
Additional Attack 1 firearm (one-handed); Additional Free Evolution firearm appendage (one-handed).

Serpentine
Additional Attack 1 firearm (one-handed); Additional Free Evolution firearm appendage (one-handed).

With these changes, and changes to limiting the number of firearm appendages, and if we reduce the evolution points for the Cannon Eidolon by 1 lets say, we could leave Firearm appendage at 1 point, or at the most move it to a 2 point evolution. 2 point may be best, since it is like obtaining another firearm.

Also wondering if Extra Barrel shoulc cost more than 1 evolution point? Maybe 2?

Does Gun Training apply to just a single Firearm type or all? If single what determines what it applies to?

I see where the confusion is. Lack of sufficient explanation. I think this is generally how I want it to function. Specifics can be further hammered out

Gun Training (Ex): At 6t level, the cannon eidolon can select one specific type of firearm (such as blunderbuss, musket, or pistol) and adds its Dex modifier to the damage dealt by that firearm. Each level the siege marshal gains an evolution point, the specific type of firearm that this ability applies to can be changed. This ability replaces devotion.

One thing that really threw us off line was Lightning Reload, partly because I misread it. I didn't notice that it's one barrel per round. We had this image of the Eidolon stomping around reloading everything including it's cannon as a free action and making full attacks every round. The only thing that I think could still use some clarification in the text is when the Eidolon gets the Deed, is it from the start of at 14th lvl when it would normally get Improved Evasion?

Rapid Reload (Ex): At 2nd level, the cannon eidolon gains Rapid Reload as a bonus feat. This ability replaces evasion.

Lightning Reload (Ex): At 14th level, the cannon eidolon gains the Lightning Reload deed, and is considered to have at least 1 grit point, even though it does not have the grit class feature. This ability replaces improved evasion.

The descriptions of some of the Evolutions could be made clearer as to whether or not they affect all the firearms or just one per purchase. Steady Hand and Reliability come to mind for this.

Changes in bold.

Reliability (Ex): The cannon eidolon reduces the misfire value of the firearm it has chosen with its gun training ability by 1 (minimum 1). This reduction occurs after any increases are calculated for firing with the broken condition, or for any other effect that may increase the misfire value of a firearm. The cannon eidolon must be at least 7th level to select this evolution.

Steady Hand (Ex): The cannon eidolon can fire a two-handed firearm it has chosen with its gun training ability as if it were a one-handed firearm. The cannon eidolon must be at least 7th level to select this evolution.

As I said, not sure if Steady Hand applies to all Firearm Appendages or must be purchased for each. Nowhere in the description of Firearm Appendage does it say the are restricted to one handed when evolved, but the existence of Steady Hand certainly suggests it. So presuming that is the case does one purchase of Steady Hand apply to all appendages of do you buy it once for each?

AS changed above, it applies to one type of fire arm. That way if you have chosen pistol for Gun TRaining, and have 2 pistol "appendages" it applies to both, but if you have a pistol and blunderbuss, it only allies to one of them, whichever you chose for Gun Training. I think tying some of these evolutions to your firearm choice for Gun Training restricts it enough, but doesn't penalize if you have 2 of the same weapon. The new rewrite of Gun Training also helps not to heavy tax the eidolon if it changes all guns from pistol to cannons later on, since the Gun Training ability allows the change of your desiganted firearm at each new level. One Level, soemone could choose to go with all blunderbusses, the nex, pistols, etc, and Gun TRaining can change right along with it. It limits to one type of firearm, but doesn't penalize the Seige Marshal is he wants to change the firearms his eidolon uses every level. Restricted versatility.

Cannon is a little strange to me, it scales alright if you're upgrading a pistol but not if it's a musket. After buying the required evolutions on a pistol (which I assume are supposed to be applied to the firearm that becomes the cannon) damage stays the same, you gain 15ft of range and drop your critical from x4 to x2. On a musket your damage drops from 3d6 to 2d6, you lose 5ft of range, and critical again drops from x4 to x2. Now, once you moved up to Improved Cannon the Cannon gains the edge in everything except critical. Greater Cannon is just brutal :D

The ability of the cannon to be fired twice in the same round with the addition of an Extra Barrel probably compensates for the initial drop in damage, but think I would still suggest removing the Improved Damage req from Cannon and require it for Improved Cannon instead. I like this as it lets you improve your cannon damage above what a pistol would be at prior to upgrading it to a cannon and it equals what it would be if you upgraded a musket.

Yeah, the point here is, although you may be able to get a musket to deal more damage thant he cannon, you can upgrade the cannon to a true cannon. Cannons on the Seige Weapon table are exactly like the Greater CAnnon, but I felt that it was way OP to be able to get true Cannon at low levels, so I sacled it and tied evolution and level prereqs to it.

I see what your're talking about with the x4 crit for most other fireams, and then it dropping to x2 for the cannon. I think this is how I will rewrite those particular evolutions. I think, the cannon probably shouldn't be a x2 cirt, but stay at x4 like other firearms. I also think, for balance, that the cannon should not be allowed to gain the Extra Barrrel evolution, since he eventually can get it as a capstone ability, which is where it should stay. I think limiting that evolution would also be prudent.

So changing Extra Barrel to read thus:

Extra Barrel (Ex): The cannon eidolon adds a barrel to one firearm. This allows the cannon eidolon to discharge its firearm an additional time before needing to reload. Each barrel must be reloaded individually as a separate weapon. This evolution can be selected twice per firearm , and its effects stack. This evolution cannot be applied to the Cannon, Improved Cannon, or Greater Cannon evolution. The cannon eidolon must be at least 3rd level to select this evolution.

Then Cannon, Improved Cannon, and Greater Cannon will read thus:

Cannon (Ex): The cannon eidolon’s firearm changes to a cannon. The cannon has a range increment of 40 feet and deals 2d6 points of bludgeoning and piercing damage on a hit with a ×4 critical modifier. Reloading the cannon is a full-round action, but can be reduced by the Rapid Reload and Lightning Reload abilities. This evolution can be selected once. The cannon eidolon must have selected the Deadly Range and Firearm Appendage evolutions. The cannon eidolon must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution.

Improved Cannon (Ex): The cannon eidolon’s gains an improved cannon attack. The improved cannon has a range increment of 60 feet and deals 4d6 points of bludgeoning and piercing damage on a hit with a ×3 critical modifier. This evolution can be selected once. The cannon eidolon must have selected the Cannon and Improved Damage evolutions. This evolution functions only if the cannon eidolon is Medium size or larger. The cannon eidolon must be at least 10th level before selecting this evolution.

Greater Cannon (Ex): The cannon eidolon’s gains a greater cannon attack. The greater cannon has a range increment of 100 feet and deals 6d6 points of bludgeoning and piercing damage on a hit with a ×4 critical modifier. This evolution can be selected once. The cannon eidolon must have selected the Improved Cannon and Large evolutions. The cannon eidolon must be at least 16th level before selecting this evolution.

There is also nothing mentioned in Cannon whether or not it uses Touch Ac at any range increments. Might be cool if Cannon is one increment like all early firearms, Improved is two, and Greater is three? Hmm, typing it I'm thinking that 300ft Touch Ac for 6d6 is probably too high. The base increment could always be adjusted or it could stay at two (or keep them all at one).

On the SRD under Siege Engines, it says cannons are normal attacks, not Touch AC. I think we need to just leave it as that, and add a caveat to the CAnnon, etc. evolutions that they are normal attack rolls not Touch Attack. I think that also helps balance the massive damage they can deal.

But then, if they are normal attack rolls, then being able to take Cannon twice without the Twin Cannon capstone ability might be OK, since they actually have to hit the AC. We could then make Cannon a 4-point evolution ability with the Deadly Range and Large evolutions as prereqs (possibly a level req too?. This would then force the PC Siege Marshal to choose wehther he wants to go with smaller firearms, more shots, and the Touch AC, or go with a big huge cannon with a normal attack roll. Thoughts? Essentially, Greater Cannon would just be renamed Cannon, and selectable at like 12th or 14th level? Maybe 10th?.

I think that's it, hopefully my frequent format edits didn't jumble up my actual thoughts. I have proofread it a couple of times, but I always seem to read what I meant to type even when that's not what's there.

Great feedback ClausLArs! This is the kind of stuff we need to really see how our MCAs funciton in game play. We can only do so much otherwise. I think I've addressed everything.

Ramza I'll get yto you when I can.

Another option may be, for Cannon, Imp Cannon and Gtr Cannon, to have them use a Touch AC attack, but increment the damage 2d6, 3d6, 4d6 for damage? Then, may be allow Improved Damage function with it? I don't know?

Another option may be, for Cannon, Imp Cannon and Gtr Cannon, to have them use a Touch AC attack, but increment the damage 2d6, 3d6, 4d6 for damage? Then, may be allow Improved Damage function with it? I don't know?

No worries, I'm in no hurry, just glad if we can be of any help at all.

My suggestion for cannon was to give the player a choice of penetrating rounds (ignore X amount of hardness on objects) or antipersonell(splash weapon adding dex to damage), as most evolutions, it'd be possible to change the ammo type whenever the Marshall levels up or otherwise changes evolutions. Maybe add a 200gp and 1 hr ritual to do it manually.

1. I'd make barrel a two pointer, it's basically an extra round without reloading. Remember that the eindolon has an innate Maximum Natural Attacks limit that scales with level, at 10th it's 5 weapons.

2. I'd add a text to the Steady Hand to make it clear that quad and serpent can now use two-handed weapons, and actually that they are limited to one-handed only

3. A text line that says something like; A firearm appendage does not require an existing limb, the weapon may be anywhere on the creature, but it still counts against the eindolon's max number of natural attacks(or a limit like 2-3 max). Note, you wrote that the appendage might be taken twice, and every base form starts with one, that's max of three, not two. Could consider removing the free gun from the base form and make it a two pointer.

4. Cannon, remember to remind that siege weapons aren't affected by Rapid Reload, and always require a full-round to reload, most pople will miss it.

OK. Here's what I've got for the changes to various aspects of the Siege Marshal and Cannon Eidolon.

First, change to the Siege Marshal's deed ability. Following Raider's example with the Desperado, since the Siege MArshal has spells.

Deeds (Ex): At 3rd level, a siege marshal gains the gunslinger’s deeds ability and gains access to 1st level deeds. Every four levels beyond 3rd, the siege marshal gains access each subsequent level of deeds (3rd, 7th, etc.), up to 15th level deeds at 19th level. However, the siege marshal may choose only two deeds that he knows of each level. This ability and grit replace summon monster and gate.

The next stuff is CHANGES to the Cannon Eidolon.

Cannon Eidolon Abilities
Evolution Pool: The cannon eidolon gains 1 fewer evolution point than indicated on Table: Eidolon Base Statistics.

Firearm (Ex): The cannon eidolon gains a number of firearm attacks as indicated by its base form’s base attack bonus. Firearm attacks are not considered natural attacks, but meet the natural attack prerequisite of the Improved Damage evolution. The Improved Damage evolution can be applied to the Cannon and Great Cannon evolutions.

Rapid Reload (Ex): At 2nd level, the cannon eidolon gains Rapid Reload as a bonus feat. This feat has no effect on the Cannon or Great Cannon evolutions. This ability replaces evasion.

Gun Training (Ex): At 6th level, the cannon eidolon can select one specific type of firearm (such as blunderbuss, musket, or pistol) and adds its Dex modifier to the damage dealt by that firearm. Each level the siege marshal gains an evolution point, the specific type of firearm that this ability applies to can be changed. This ability replaces devotion.

Lightning Reload (Ex): At 14th level, the cannon eidolon gains the Lightning Reload deed, and is considered to have at least 1 grit point, even though it does not have the grit class feature. This deed has no effect on the Cannon or Great Cannon evolutions. This ability replaces improved evasion.

Base Forms
Each cannon eidolon has one of three base forms that determine its starting statistics. A siege marshal may select from either the biped, quadruped, or serpentine base forms. Each of these forms otherwise function as those listed in the eidolon description of the Advanced Player’s Guide (see p. 60). A siege marshal cannot select the aquatic base form. A cannon eidolon gains the following additional attacks and free evolutions according to its base form.

Biped
Additional Attack 1 firearm (one-handed or two-handed); Additional Free Evolution firearm appendage (one-handed or two-handed), limb (arms), limbs (legs), slam. A cannon eidolon with the biped base form may only one-handed or two-handed firearms.

Quadruped
Additional Attack 1 firearm (one-handed); Additional Free Evolution firearm appendage (one-handed). A cannon eidolon with the quadruped base form may only use one-handed firearms.

Serpentine
[b]Additional Attack 1 firearm (one-handed); Additional Free Evolution firearm appendage (one-handed). A cannon eidolon with the serpent base form may only use one-handed firearms.

Evolutions
2-Point Evolutions

Extra Barrel (Ex): The cannon eidolon adds a single barrel to one firearm. This allows the cannon eidolon to discharge its firearm an additional time before needing to reload. Each barrel must be reloaded individually as a separate weapon. This evolution can be selected once per firearm, including the Cannon evolution. The cannon eidolon must be at least 6th level to select this evolution.

Moved this to 2-point Evolutions, increased leve prereq to 6th, and limited it to one per firearm.

Firearm Appendage (Ex): The cannon eidolon gains and appendage that functions like a certain type of firearm (one-handed or two-handed), depending upon the cannon eidolon’s base form. A firearm appendage can be attached to the arms or shoulders (biped), the shoulders or back (quadruped), or the head or tail (serpent). This firearm can be discharged and reloaded using the appropriate actions. A cannon eidolon’s firearm appendage is considered a primary attack. The cannon eidolon can selected twice, including the free firearm appendage granted by the eidolon’s base form.

designated locations for the fiream appendage for each base form, and again, limited it to only 2 appendages period.

Steady Hand (Ex): The cannon eidolon can fire a two-handed firearm it has chosen with its gun training ability as if it were a one-handed firearm. A cannon eidolon with the quadruped or serpent base form can now use two-handed weapons. The cannon eidolon must be at least 7th level to select this evolution.

3-Point Evolutions

Cannon (Ex): The cannon eidolon changes a single firearm into a cannon. The cannon has a range increment of 40 feet and deals 2d6 points of bludgeoning and piercing damage on a hit with a ×4 critical modifier. Unlike other firearms, a cannon uses a normal attack roll, not a touch AC attack. Reloading the cannon is a full-round action, and cannot be reduced by the Rapid Reload and Lightning Reload abilities. If the cannon eidolon has the Extra Barrel evolution, it can take two shots per round with the cannon. This evolution can be selected multiple times. Its effects do not stack. If the cannon eidolon has the Improved Damage evolution, the cannon’s damage increases to 3d6. The cannon eidolon must have selected the Deadly Range and Firearm Appendage evolutions. This evolution functions only if the cannon eidolon is Medium size or larger. The cannon eidolon must be at least 10th level before selecting this evolution.

Decided to go with the Cannon evolution at 3-points, and limititing it to only 2 cannons. Also desiganted exact damage increase with Improved Damage evolution. With the firearm appendage only being selected twice max,that limits this to twice too.

4-Point Evolutions

Great Cannon (Ex): The cannon eidolon’s cannon changes into a great cannon. The great cannon has a range increment of 60 feet and deals 3d6 points of bludgeoning and piercing damage on a hit with a ×4 critical modifier. Like the Cannon evolution, a great cannon uses a normal attack roll, not a touch AC attack. This evolution can be selected multiple times. Its effects do not stack. If the cannon eidolon has the Improved Damage evolution, the cannon’s damage increases to 4d6.The cannon eidolon must have selected the Cannon and Large evolutions. This evolution functions only if the cannon eidolon is Large size or larger. The cannon eidolon must be at least 16th level before selecting this evolution.

I think this is a more sutable range of damage for the cannons, instead of the 6d6. I think 16th for Great CAnnon is good too.

Still not sure whether firearms should be counted as natural weapons or not. If so, they will need to count against their max natural attacks. However, I still think firearms shouldjust be counted as normal attacks. That way you get 1 firearm attack at 1st-6th level, 2 firearm attacks at 7th-13th, and 3 firearm attacks at 14th-20th. If the eidolon has 2 great cannons at 16th, that's 2 attacks per round (4 with double barrels) at 3d6 damage (4d6 with Improved Damage) each atttack. These are normal attacks (not touch AC) but still do nasty damage (total of 16d6). IF these are counted as natural weapons, you can also add claws or bites in the same round.

Still wondering about the Improved damage functioning with the Cannons. I suppose since you can reload faster with the smaller firearms, that balances out the damage of the cannons, since they can only fire once every two rounds. Other firearms can fire every round.

Any further comments or issues seen with the rework would be appreciated.

I'll be putting up my stuff on the Clockwork Mage tomorrow.