|
| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I know that small characters get to have weapons weighing 1/2 the regular weight and mithral weapons make you pay 500gp/lb.
What does that mean for a small character? Does it cut the cost of mithral versions of their weapons in half, or do they have to pay the full price, as per the Medium sized weapon.
Also, a dagger is 1 lb. Does that mean that only 250gp are needed to make a small mithral dagger?
|
The rules for mithral weapons (specifically) are a mess, but the upshot is that the price is based purely on the weight of the finished mithral product (as evidenced by items in Ultimate Equipment).
This makes mithral weapons cheaper than (steel) masterwork weapons if the mithral weapon weighs half a pound or less, and more expensive than adamantine weapons if the mithral weapon weighs more than six pounds.
Non-sensical, I know, but RAW. The rules for mithral weapons are overdue for an overhaul.
Take the cost of a medium weapon, divide it in half. Take the new weight and multiplying by 500g, that's the new price for a small Mithral weapon.
Yes, a Mithral dagger costs 250g. I don't remember the exact wording, you may need to pay 500g/lb plus the cost of the weapon, but for a dagger that's only 1g.
The real question is: why do ou want Mithral weapons at all? They are pretty expensive and offer little benefit? They function like silver weapons, but a much more expensive (3g for that dagger vs 251g).
I was just looking into this earlier, as a player in my game died and was looking at bringing in a rifle sniper and wanted to know pricing on a mithral pepperbox rifle.
I concur with Malachi - mithral weapons (for better or worse) are +500g per pound, so technically a small mithral dagger costs only 250g.
And a 15 lb. mithral pepperbox rifle took up most of his 5th-level character's starting budget. Ouch...
So the question still stands, what if the dagger is small. Mithral small dagger costs 125? Right?
Oh, I understand. A dagger normally weighs 1lb. Mithral weighs half, so technically a mithral dagger weighs half a pound - so is it 500g per pound of the original item, or of the completed item as made from mithral?
From a rules-perspective, I would assume you would pay the pre-mithral cost in pounds, but... that's an assumption, and the answer can't be extrapolated from armor necessarily, as they don't seem to use the same price per pound (example: a chain shirt weighs 25 lbs, a mithral chain shirt weighs 10 lbs, but costs only 1100g*).
*Either the cost of mithral armor should be much higher, or mithral weapons should be far less expensive...
Don't alchemical silver weapons still have -1 to damage? So the extra price for mithril would be so you don't lose damage I would guess.
To answer how much a small dagger would cost. It looks by the book it would cost 252gp and counts as masterwork. Which is stupid because a small masterwork dagger made out of steel would cost 302gp.
I don't know how I would fix it, as all of the special materials would require an overhaul IMHO. I would probably charge at least 302gp, maybe 402gp so it is a little less stupid.
|
|
To answer how much a small dagger would cost. It looks by the book it would cost 252gp and counts as masterwork. Which is stupid because a small masterwork dagger made out of steel would cost 302gp.
I don't know how I would fix it, as all of the special materials would require an overhaul IMHO. I would probably charge at least 302gp, maybe 402gp so it is a little less stupid.
Yes, but what does the Society charge (cost of the dagger in PFS) for the dagger? I believe it has to be on the sheet and any GM can audit it.
|
|
This makes mithral weapons cheaper than (steel) masterwork weapons if the mithral weapon weighs half a pound or less, and more expensive than adamantine weapons if the mithral weapon weighs more than six pounds.
Don't you mean 12 pounds? 12/2=6 6x500=3000 12 pounds, right?
If the steel version weighed 12 then the mithral version weighs 6 and costs 6 x 500 = 3000
|
|
OK, so just to clarify, the formula for mithral weapons is 1/4 Medium weight of weapon times 500gp for small weapons and 1/2 Medium weight of weapon times 500gp for a medium weapon. Do I get this right?
Assuming 'weight of weapon' means the weight of a normal steel version; yes, your formula is correct.
|
The formula is based on the weight of the normal weapon.
500gp per pound.
A medium mithril dagger is 502gp based on the 1lb dagger weight.
A small mithril dagger costs 252gp based on 1/2 pound for the small dagger.
The end result is a mithril dagger that weighs half as much as a normal steel version. But the price is calculated based on normal steel weight.
500 gp * 1lb * 0.5 for small weapons.
The real question is: why do ou want Mithral weapons at all? They are pretty expensive and offer little benefit? They function like silver weapons, but a much more expensive (3g for that dagger vs 251g).
For small characters:
MW dagger: +1 to hit, 302gMithril Dagger: +1 to hit, counts as silver weapon, 252g
so less money for a better weapon, and you question why?
The formula is based on the weight of the normal weapon.
500gp per pound.
A medium mithril dagger is 502gp based on the 1lb dagger weight.
A small mithril dagger costs 252gp based on 1/2 pound for the small dagger.The end result is a mithril dagger that weighs half as much as a normal steel version. But the price is calculated based on normal steel weight.
500 gp * 1lb * 0.5 for small weapons.
This is not how the Mithral items in Ultimate Equipment are priced:
Mithral Cauldron: 1251gp, 2.5lbs (normally 1gp, 5lbs)
Mithral Grappling Hook: 1001gp, 2lbs (normally 1gp, 4lbs)
Mithral Pot: 1001gp, 2lbs (normally 8sp, 4lbs)
Mithral Waffle Iron: 1251gp, 2.5lbs (normally 1gp, 5lbs)
The formula is based on the weight of the normal weapon.
500gp per pound.
A medium mithril dagger is 502gp based on the 1lb dagger weight.
A small mithril dagger costs 252gp based on 1/2 pound for the small dagger.The end result is a mithril dagger that weighs half as much as a normal steel version. But the price is calculated based on normal steel weight.
500 gp * 1lb * 0.5 for small weapons.
This is not how the Mithral items in Ultimate Equipment are priced:
Mithral Cauldron: 1251gp, 2.5lbs (normally 1gp, 5lbs)
Mithral Grappling Hook: 1001gp, 2lbs (normally 1gp, 4lbs)
Mithral Pot: 1001gp, 2lbs (normally 8sp, 4lbs)
Mithral Waffle Iron: 1251gp, 2.5lbs (normally 1gp, 5lbs)
Looks to me like whoever wrote the book got it wrong. It won't be the first time.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Potentially relevant FAQ.
It shows that it is possible to have weapons whose weight for calculating mithral prices is less than 1 lb. So if anyone (understandably) thinks getting a mithral (and therefore masterwork) weapon for 250gp instead of 300gp (and change) doesn't work, there you go.
Looks to me like whoever wrote the book got it wrong. It won't be the first time.The formula is based on the weight of the normal weapon.
500gp per pound.
A medium mithril dagger is 502gp based on the 1lb dagger weight.
A small mithril dagger costs 252gp based on 1/2 pound for the small dagger.The end result is a mithril dagger that weighs half as much as a normal steel version. But the price is calculated based on normal steel weight.
500 gp * 1lb * 0.5 for small weapons.
This is not how the Mithral items in Ultimate Equipment are priced:
Mithral Cauldron: 1251gp, 2.5lbs (normally 1gp, 5lbs)
Mithral Grappling Hook: 1001gp, 2lbs (normally 1gp, 4lbs)
Mithral Pot: 1001gp, 2lbs (normally 8sp, 4lbs)
Mithral Waffle Iron: 1251gp, 2.5lbs (normally 1gp, 5lbs)
Do you know of any published material that has Mithral items priced by the weight of the normal material?
|
|
Tried to find a weapon reference frome the core book, for price but they seemed to specifically avoid creating a Mithral Greatsword or something, in the vein of Adamantine Battleaxe and Cold Iron Longsword. A vague point, but I've always thought it was based on the pre-Mithral weight, otherwise you end up with some cheaper masterwork items, that bypass DR/silver without a penalty to damage.
Do you know of any published material that has Mithral items priced by the weight of the normal material?
Actually, yes I do. The Wreath of Blades spell. It requires 4 mithral daggers as a focus, and specifically says they cost 502gp each.
Components V, S, F (four mithral daggers, each worth at least 502 gp each)
|
|
Do you know of any published material that has Mithral items priced by the weight of the normal material?Actually, yes I do. The Wreath of Blades spell. It requires 4 mithral daggers as a focus, and specifically says they cost 502gp each.
Components V, S, F (four mithral daggers, each worth at least 502 gp each)
By that logic, the daggers are medium doing medium 1d4 damage. It also points out that the daggers can be cheaper. So a small dagger should cost less, as in 252 gp.
It also points out that the daggers can be cheaper. So a small dagger should cost less, as in 252 gp.
No it doesn't. It says "at least 502gp" because more expensive daggers can be used for a greater spell effect.
If mithral daggers really cost 252gp, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to require a mithral dagger worth 502gp - thats a rather strange cost. Why not just 500gp? Every other spell component that has a price is a nice round number. Why is this spell different?
No, it says 502gp because that is the cost of a mithral dagger.
Don't alchemical silver weapons still have -1 to damage? So the extra price for mithril would be so you don't lose damage I would guess.
That only applies to slashing and piercing damage. Bludgeoning someone to death with a silver mace still works plenty fine. :P
It also points out that the daggers can be cheaper. So a small dagger should cost less, as in 252 gp.No it doesn't. It says "at least 502gp" because more expensive daggers can be used for a greater spell effect.
If mithral daggers really cost 252gp, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to require a mithral dagger worth 502gp - thats a rather strange cost. Why not just 500gp? Every other spell component that has a price is a nice round number. Why is this spell different?
No, it says 502gp because that is the cost of a mithral dagger.
Even using the normal item weight as the basis for pricing, a Small Mithral dagger would be 252gp, per the FAQ that Jiggy linked.
So a Small caster would need to have Medium daggers for the spell, I suppose.
one way or another, developers and writers don't even seem to have a concrete ruling on the matter. definitely an FAQ worthy thing. i'm going back and FAQing this thread.
Agreed.
|
I'm pretty sure mithral price is based off the amount of mithral you are buying. Think of it as mithral costs 500g/lb. I originally thought it was based off of the steel weight until I looked at costs of other mithral items.
mithral chain shirt costs 1,100g. steel weight 25lbs. if paying per steel pound 25x500=12,500. per mithral pound = 6,250.
mithral breast plate costs 4,200g. steel weight 30lbs. if paying per steel pound 30x500=15,000. per mithral pound = 7,500.
mithral full plate 10,500g. steel weight 50lbs. if paying per steel pound 50x500=25,000. per mithral pound = 12,500.
mithral heavy shield 1020g. steel weight 15lbs. if paying per steel pound 15x500=7,500. per mithral pound = 3,750.
Yikes that's expensive. If mithral was meant to be worth 500g/steel lb, then armor should cost twice the price it is listed as. I can understand having some discount for mithral armor (as the armor is not made entirely of mithral, there is some backing/padding/straps etc), but not a 60% + discount. Would be nice to get an official ruling though.
|
|
the mithral prices you've quoted for a chain shirt, or breast plate, don't line up to the costs for the item per pound. they're not even close in most of the examples for armor.
its listed in the equipment section as an "item cost modifier" of +500gp/lb. if they'd meant it to be calculated off the new weight of the item, they could have specified that. as written it looked to me like you look at the weight of the item, and then use 500gp worth of mithrial for every pound of steel. and end up with an item that weights half as much because mithral is lighter. so its 500gp per pound of steel that you're replacing. thats the way i see it anyhow.
The mithral armor prices don't line up because you don't buy it by the pound like you would for a weapon or crowbar.
Light armor +1,000 gp
Medium armor +4,000 gp
Heavy armor +9,000 gp
Shield +1,000 gp
Other items +500 gp/lb.
Pricing a mithral item based on the items original weight keeps mithral in line with the other special materials that price based on weight.
Darkwood (Core Rulebook and Ultimate Equipment), which also halves an items weight, is priced according to the items normal weight. Greenwood (Advanced Race Guide and Ultimate Equipment) is the same. Having mithral prices be based off the original weight just keeps things consistent.
And whatever ruling applies to mithral, should also apply to darkleaf cloth (Ultimate Equipment). It also has a price per pound, and halves the items weight, but makes no note about which weight the price is based on.
|
|
Yeah, they don't line up at all. In fact the per weight costs are all over twice the listed per armor category costs. The half weight cost would be much closer to the listed prices than the full weight cost. So do you think it makes sense that mithral armor costs 1/2 to 1/6th the price of other mithral items? Cause that's what paying 500/steel lb is. If a merchant could get 2-6 times as much for making other things out of mithral, then nobody would sell mithral armor. It just doesn't make sense to have that high of a price discrepancy.
Also, as Seraphimpunk pointed out, it the ultimate equipment guide agrees with this as the mithral items listed are based off the mithral weight, not the steel weight.
|
|
not to correct you, but i didn't say that. someone else quoted some mithral pots and pans, and said they corresponded to the mithral weight, not the steel weight. Those could have been halved in price by the designers because what gamer is going to pay 2,000gp for a mithral pot for 'flavor'.
*I* think its based on the steel weight, as that corresponds with the item price modifier used in other special materials.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Man walks into shop. Sees sign. Sign says, 'mithral-500gp/lb'.
Man says, 'I'll have a pound of mithral, please!'
Shopkeeper says, 'Certainly sir, that'll be 1000gp!'
'WTF! It says it's 500!'
'Well, yes, but if it were steel it'd weigh twice as much!'
'If it were paper it'd weigh almost nothing! I'm not buying steel, I'm buying mithral, at the book price of 500gp, you cheating bastard!'
'Ah, but if it were steel....'
'I don't give a flying f**#! Give me the mithral at the promised price or my gift to you will be an 8lb, +5, adamantine suppository!'
|
|
oops. my mistake. It was redward that posted that.
Current RAW aside, I think that the per weight price should only be for miscellaneous stuff like cauldrons, and that weapons should have their own set price. Maybe a scaling one like +500 for light weapons, +2000 for one handed, +4500 for two handed (though that still sounds pretty steep). Maybe just a flat +2000g for any weapon, that would make it comparable to cold iron. Most other weapon materials just have a set +X gold. Making a weapon mithral doesn't add near enough to justify the exorbitant costs for high weight weapons.
what gamer is going to pay 2,000gp for a mithral pot for 'flavor'.
What gamer? What chef! That fancy-schmancy mithral pot with its low density, thin-walled construction and non-stick coating will never give you a good sear. Good luck getting any kind of flavor out of that scam of a pot.
|
|
The price by weight for non-armour items didn't do too much harm before PF let mithral bypass DR/silver, as there was little enough motive to use mithral to make weapons.
Now we run into the problem that a mithral weapon (which is always masterwork as part of the price) of low enough weight will be cheaper than a masterwork steel version of the same weapon.
Although the best solution would resemble the pricing structure foe silver weapons (two-handed, one-handed, light, ammunition) or even adamantine (a flat price), the best stop-gap solution, pricing mithral weapons by weight, is to have a minimum price of +500 (because it's better than a masterwork weapon which costs +300) and a maximum price of +2500 (because it's not as good as an adamantine weapon which costs +3000).
