Player challenges vs. character rolls?

[Zerlik]

Is it legal to substitute player actions for the dice within the scope of organized play?

Example: I have a Turkish puzzle box. Would it be legal to hide a key in the box and have the players figure out how to physically open the box vs rolling to disarm device or similar?

Maybe there is a locked door rather than finding a key or a lever the characters notice there is a symbol on the door that is missing tiles. The characters find the tiles with perception rolls but to open the door the players must assemble the tiles to make the matching tanagram.

Could be the characters need to stack boxes so that they can reach a window? So you have the players stack different sized blocks such that the path would be stable. How well the players do in building the stack could impact the DC on the climb rolls.

Thanks,
Bob

[MisterSlanky]

In a home game - yes. Although personally I hate mixing up player knowledge/ability with PC knowledge/ability as I don't have a charisma of 18 or an intelligence of 28 which makes it hard for me to charm my friends and figure out puzzle boxes as "child's play".

In a PFS game, no, this would be strictly prohibited.

[Jiggy]

If I'm following you right, then no. Scenarios are to be run as written (with allowances for blurry rules, corner cases, creative solutions on the part of the players, etc).

Now, adding props for the sake of immersion is fantastic. For instance (and this isn't really a spoiler) Rebel's Ransom involves acquiring several items. The scenario includes handouts for these items, but if the GM made models, that would be amazing. But replacing some of the challenges in the scenario involving these items with out-of-character challenges would not be appropriate.

Example:

Rebel's Ransom:

There's a puzzle to be solved by laying out some rods in order of weight. Making equivalent models and letting the players determine the weight themselves (instead of using the checks in the scenario or a PC having scales with them) would be inappropriate.

[MisterSlanky]

Jiggy wrote:

Example:

** spoiler omitted **

Generally correct but in this one particular specific instance, and only this instance, I would disagree.

Spoiler:

There is, written into Rebel's Ransom a clause about letting players figure out the puzzles via other methods not involving the "skill check" method. Props with appropriate weights might actually be construed to be "within the rules" in this one corner case.

[BigNorseWolf]

Hand the 1 pound item to the wizard and have him run around

Not encumbered yet!

Ok, now hand him the other one

I'm running much slower now!

Ok that ones heavier...

[Jiggy]

@Ryan - Fair enough. Not like I have it in front of me at the moment. :P

[Mark Moreland]

This was a quandary we encountered when trying to add interactive elements to the events at the Grand Convocation, and we ultimately decided upon a mix of both character and player ability for many of them. Since a player might not actually be very Charismatic or good at speaking in public, asking that player to boast about her PC and then taking that as the PC's roll seemed unfair given that she could be playing a Cha 24 Bard with max ranks and Skill Focus in Perform (oratory), Diplomacy, and Bluff, wearing a circlet of persuasion. Similarly, if someone's really good at darts and those are used as a replacement for ranged target practice, it unduly punishes their archery-specialist fighter or ranger who should, by all accounts, be able to excel at such a challenge.

In the end, we built in mechanics to allow player actions or talents to provide a small bonus (never a penalty) to the PCs' rolls. But we had clear rules for how these mechanics worked. Outside of specials, we aren't likely to do this in Pathfinder Society Scenarios. The only exception would be puzzles and riddles, which we'd always give a skill DC to solve for parties made up of players who aren't good at brain teasers or who simply don't have fun with them when they could be in combat or roleplaying their PCs, etc.

TLDR: if the scenario includes options to allow player knowledge or skill to impact the outcome of the adventure, then you are encouraged to use these options, but if not, then use the in-character challenges as presented.

[Shivok]

Mark Moreland wrote:

This was a quandary we encountered when trying to add interactive elements to the events at the Grand Convocation, and we ultimately decided upon a mix of both character and player ability for many of them. Since a player might not actually be very Charismatic or good at speaking in public, asking that player to boast about her PC and then taking that as the PC's roll seemed unfair given that she could be playing a Cha 24 Bard with max ranks and Skill Focus in Perform (oratory), Diplomacy, and Bluff, wearing a circlet of persuasion. Similarly, if someone's really good at darts and those are used as a replacement for ranged target practice, it unduly punishes their archery-specialist fighter or ranger who should, by all accounts, be able to excel at such a challenge.

Yep I saw this first hand in the channel your god event. Players playing 9th Lvl Priests with little knowledge of their Characters deity besides the domains...funny stuff but its good to draw a lne.